Wikipedia:Peer review/Religion in Indonesia/archive1

Religion in Indonesia
Two weeks ago, this article was an Indonesian collaboration article, but it had not improved significantly. So since last week, I have tried to expand the article, of course with some other editors. I'd like people to comment on the flow and the content, as well as the quality of English used. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers -- I   mo   eng  14:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

"It is arguably the most important foundation of the country's culture, including food and society..." is the first part of one sentence in the lead. I'm unsure of what it means, mostly because the phrasing is rather odd. I could guess, but encyclopedia readers shouldn't have to. There is also a tag in the lead: it, and the others, need to be replaced with inline citations to reliable sources. Thank you. -Fsotrain09 04:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the feedback. I have put one citation there, and I couldn't see any other tag. So what about the rest of the article? Cheers --  I   mo   eng  05:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would suggest combining the "Protestantism in Indonesia" and "Catholicism in Indonesia" into one larger, more comprehensive "Christianity in Indonesia" section. About the only reason I could see for discussing the denominations in two different sections is the existence of Catholicism in Indonesia, which is part of another article series. But there really doesn't appear to be any reason beyond that to separate them out. -Fsotrain09 17:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks again. The reason I separated them is they are two different religions in the country. Also is it good to mention there are six religions, but I only have 5 subheadings? Cheers -- I   mo   eng  02:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Some thoughts... But overall I think the article provides a good summary of the different religions in Indonesia. Agne 12:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Image:Transasia trade routes 1stC CE gr2.png has a note that it maybe deleted for redunancy with another Common's image. I would look into that.
 * Though I love the usefulness of the Religion map in the lead. Another editor noted in the Indonesia article the improper shading of Papua New Guinea. I would get with the map's creator to try and modify it to make it more accurate.
 * Several changes need to be made to the map. North Sulawesi is shown as muslim, despite being majority christian (Protestant). Most of the Malukus likewise are shown as muslim-majority despite the old (pre-1999) province of Maluku being 45% Christian (again, Protestant). Finally, Borneo shows no sign of the large Christian-majority areas there, especially in Western Borneo/Kalimantan, but also along the border with eastern Sarawak.
 * There is a warning template on Image:Bedugul.jpg that should be looked into.
 * I am confused about the classification of Catholicism and Protestantism as separate religions when they are just different denominations of Christianity. It look like the Indonesia Constitution does separate them like this but then the question of "why" jumps in? Is there a particular facet in Indonesian religious culture or in the particular incarnation of Catholicism and Protestantism in Indonesia that makes them so fundamentally different that they have to be considered two different religions?
 * There are some areas that would be served well with a cite tag for WP:V sake. I will add them to the article.
 * I would be aware of a slight "essayish" nature in the article with lines like "Islam in Indonesia is in many cases less meticulously practiced in comparison to Islam in, say, the Middle East region." Note that the "say" in the line is not needed.


 * Thank you Agne, I appreciate it very much. I will work on these things and probably I'll get it back to you. Thanks again -- I   mo   eng  08:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Re FSotrain09 and Agne's problems about the separation of Protestantism and Catholicism, please take note that Imoeng is quite correct and should be taken note of! They are considered throughout Indonesia as separate religious identities - not as parts of one - they actually usually have in many places separate "territory" of followers within the Indonesian landscape - they have a range of differences as to how they translate the bible and have separate liturgical usage- and to worry about them simply being separate denominations and to bother about why is not the role of the current article - there are indeed aspects of Indonesian religious culture that treat these communities as separate. If the article is to adequately reflect the reality in the Indonesian Constitution and practices of the last 50 years - they need to be identified as such! SatuSuro 11:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for that clarification, SatuSuro. If Indonesia's constitution classifies Catholicism and Protestantism as different religions, then yes, they should be discussed separately, but that constitutional logic should be noted. This is primarily because non-Indonesian readers of this article are probably not aware of the designation -- we as writers of this encyclopedia should not assume that our readers possess that kind of prior knowledge. You are right, of course, that there are significant differences between the two denominations, and the typical English-speaking encyclopedia reader is most likely familiar with them. What they will not likely be familiar with is how that situation is reflected in Indonesian constitutional law and Indonesian religious identity. Lastly, my suggestion to Imoeng was precisely that, a suggestion. I made it on the basis of what information I read at the time. -Fsotrain09 16:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree fully. It is fine if the Constitution treats them separate but for the curious reader there should be some details about the constitutional logic or the aspect of Indonesian thought that separates them. Agne 18:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The founding of the Indonesian republic and the particular events that created the structure of the constitution are not my speciality - but during sukarno old order and in suharto new order there was always in public discourse the importance of living by those principles and the details to the law - that should be sufficient without going into the detail. If the curious reader needs to know more - then someone needs to either find the article on the indonesian constitution or write it - ratther than in this article- it is not a simple story!   oh - thanks for your considered responses SatuSuro 23:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I will try to find the information about these things. More is better than less, I reckon. Thanks again -- I   mo   eng  07:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thinking about my earlier posts - an example might be - the crux is that an article about Catholic culture cannot simply reduce monasticism into one section - it should deal with benedictines and redemporists separtately for example if it is to be a good article - or at least point to another article about monasticism that does separate out the two separate traditions and ethos.  In Indonesia - Islam cannot be adequately explained unless NU and Muhhamadiyah are adequately explained - and if it is not explained adequately in the article - it should at least point to another that makes a good distinction between the two.  A serious issue about the founding constitution of Indonesia and religion is the absence of any consideration of the kejawen/mystical grroups within the main framework of the 'official' religions allowed

(in the suharto era, when I travelled in Java - I was always asked "what is your religion" within the first two minutes - as the imputation of Indonesian citizenship (I wasnt one but had a kitas one time) at that time was that you must believe in god and therefore belong to one of the official religions - if you didnt you were atheist and therefore communist - many foreign travellers were naive enough to not adequately disguise their western secularism! It is my belief that such an epistemology (ie necessity to believe in god is what gained your identity card) was quite capable of sustaining a logic and practice that separates the protestant ffrom the catholic in the same climate. SatuSuro


 * Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Ruhrfisch 03:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Informative and well written. I thought that there could be a section on animism because many of the regular practices and rituals irrespective of the present religions follow from that. Then I found that it is already on the 'To do' list. Once this is added, it would bind the pieces together. -- P.K.Niyogi 03:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC).