Wikipedia:Peer review/Rugby union positions/archive1

Rugby union positions
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because in a week the 2011 Rugby World Cup starts and I am hoping some people new to the game will come onto Wikipedia looking for more information. This article focusses on the various positions and I would like some input from editors not familiar with rugby union to offer advice on making it more accessible for everyone. There is currently one up for peer review that focusses on the laws and I am working on one that will focus on gameplay.

Thanks,

Thanks, AIR corn (talk) 09:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments from Jappalang

Lede


 * "There are fifteen rugby union positions consisting of ..."
 * Per WP:BEGINNING, the "article should begin with a declarative sentence telling the nonspecialist reader what (or who) is the subject." Frankly speaking, most people would know of the game as just "rugby" and by attaching "union", one would be confused into thinking this is an article about an organization of rugby players to fight for their rights.
 * The first three points of WP:BEGINNING, and WP:BOLDTITLE, thus allows us to rephrase the opening (without bolding or possibly confusing and awkward phrase) as:
 * "In the game rugby union, the players on a team assume positions that comprise ..."
 * There is rugby league, which is a different game so it has to stay at rugby union. It is linked so it shouldn't be too confusing. I have rewritten the first sentence to reflect WP:Beginning better. AIR corn (talk) 10:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * "Apart from a scrum there are no set positions on the field, although as the different positions suit certain skill sets and body types player generally specialise in one or two positions. At the scrum there must be eight players (providing a team still has fifteen on the field), three in the front row, two in the second, plus three loose forwards."
 * Scrum is associated wrongly with position here (and scrum can be further made clear to the reader). Suggestion: "Rugby players can play in any position, although players generally specialise in one or two that are well served by their skills and body types.  However, during a scrum (when players huddle together to restart play and grab for the ball), a team fields three forwards in the front row, two in the second, and another three loosely at the edges of the formation."
 * Had a go at rewriting this. I was trying to say that no matter the players position they can be anywhere on the field, as long as they are not offside. Their must be eight in a scrum however and it is the only positions in the law book that are defined. AIR corn (talk) 10:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * "The wingers are the speedsters in the team and finish of many of the tries."
 * "Speedster" is an informal word, not suitable for encyclopaedias. It would also be better to rephrase "finish of [sic] many of the tries" as "usually the ones who score by bringing the ball across the goal line."
 * Good point. I wikilinked tries.


 * "The centres main role is to provide space for the wingers."
 * "The main role of the centres is to clear space for the wingers to run."
 * Tweaked


 * "Scrum-halves feed the backline and need a quick accurate pass."
 * Why do they (the feeders) need someone to provide them with a "quick accurate pass"? I would rephrase as "Scrum-halves decide the team's tactics and are responsible for quickly passing the ball to the backline."
 * Feed was a poor word choice. Tweaked.


 * "Forwards compete for the ball in scrums and lineouts and are usually involved in rucks and mauls."
 * "Forwards tackle opposing players and try to gain possession of the ball in the scrums." Needless to mention "ruck" and "maul" (rugby terminologies) at this time in the lede.
 * Removed ruck and mauls. I believe lineouts is important to mention as it is a key role in the forwards play (can be wikilinked).


 * "Locks are tall and jump for the ball at the lineout after the hooker has thrown it in."
 * "Locks are tall and jump for the ball when it is thrown back into play."

Overview


 * "At lineouts there must be at least two players from each team positioned between five meters and fifteen meters from the touch in line with where the ball crossed from the lineout. ... the hookers throw the ball in and halfbacks are ready to receive the ball."
 * The text description of lineouts do not tally with File:Avant touche ASM-AB.jpg and File:Springbok-All Black lineout in tri nations 2006.jpg, and is very confusing to me. After reading the rugby books again, I suggest, "In a lineout, the teams line up their forwards, facing each other, at least five meters from where the ball has gone out of bounds.  The rest of the teams stand at least ten meters from these forwards.  The team who last touched the ball is penalised; its opponent's hooker, standing behind the sideline, throws the ball back into play between the two lines of players, aiming for his locks.  The forwards pass the ball to their halfbacks after gaining possession of the ball."  Jappalang (talk) 06:02, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There are some factual inaccuracies in your suggestion so it cannot be copied verbatim, but I have had a go at rewriting this section using it as a guide. AIR corn (talk) 13:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * "The scrum must consist of eight players, unless for some reason (i.e. send off or injury) a team cannot field fifteen players."
 * "Each team sends eight players to participate in a scrum; the number is reduced if a team has less than fifteen players on the field due to injuries and dismissals."


 * While it is nice to have a "free" photograph of a scrum set up, I think an SVG line diagram of the scrum setup would also work very well in tandem with the photograph. You cannot distinguish the positionings in the photograph and an illustration of the how players position themselves in a scrum would be much better than the template below.


 * I fail to understand why is used here when the graphical File:Rugby formation.svg is already in use in the lede (and readily accessible)?


 * I think there is too much of the "can" culture here. He can do this, he can do that, so on, so on.  Try reducing it (see the lineout suggestion I made above).

History


 * "Early rugby did no more than distinguish in tactics between the great bulk of the players who played as forwards and the relative few who played back defensively as 'tends' (from 'goaltenders')."
 * That reads a bit clumsy to me and I am not even sure what it is trying to say. My best interpretation would be "In early rugby, players were separated purely into two groups: the offensive forwards and the defensive 'tends' (from 'goaltenders').  Most players tend to play as the forwards."


 * "After a while, the attacking or at least counter-attacking possibilities of playing close behind the scrimmage (which later came to be called "scrummage") was recognised, and some players stationed themselves between the forwards and tends as "half-tends"."
 * "After a while" can mean a few days, which is not likely here... "Eventually, players saw the possiblities of launching a quick attack by staying close behind the scrimmage (later called 'scrummage') and gaining the ball; those who stationed themselves between the forwards and tends came to be known as 'half-tends'."

Names of positions


 * "The IRB standard ..."
 * Who is the IRB? Per Manual of Style, "write out both the full version and the abbreviation at first occurrence".

References


 * Who is "Collins 2009"? This is not in the Bibliography.

I am stopping here. I think the content is all there and well structured, but the language needs improvement; I am not going to point out every statement that could be confusing to a layman. I advise to find a copy-editor who is not a rugby fan (a general liking for sports would be okay) to improve the language here. I have a marginal experience with the game (I prefer footer) and still I find some terms (or the way items are presented here) confusing.

One thing I believe that can really help make this article accesible to the layman is to include a derivative of File:Rugby formation.svg with every position in the Backs, Forwards, and Utility players section. Each of the derivative highlights the player position; e.g. for the Wing sub-section, the derivative of File:Rugby formation.svg highlights the Left-wing and Right-wing in red (circle in red). The picture can be paired with the current File:Mark Cueto.jpg there through. This would make it readily evident to the reader where those positions are relative to the others without having to flip back to the image page to have a look. Jappalang (talk) 06:02, 15 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the review. I have made some changes to the article reflecting many of your suggestions. I will see what I can do with the File:Rugby formation.svg. AIR corn (talk) 11:11, 22 September 2011 (UTC)