Wikipedia:Peer review/Saint Fin Barre's Cathedral/archive1

Saint Fin Barre's Cathedral
Cathedral designed by William Burges, on a site dating back to the 7th century. Listing this as its not an area I usually edit in, although I lived alongside it in younger years, and would like feedback. Ceoil (talk) 16:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Cassianto
Finbarr of Cork
 * Fine

Medieval and 18th century churches
 * "Finbarr was born in Munster and reputedly given Gougane Barra as a place of contemplation." -- MOS:ACCUSED, unless it can be cited or made clear that little is known;
 * Yeah. The Gougane Barra section is underdeveloped, and needs an overhaul. I take your point. Ceoil (talk) 21:28, 24 September 2017 (UTC)


 * "The building was always considered aesthetically and structurally weak..." -- who considered this?
 * Now the Dublin Builder & Parliamentary Gazetteer of Ireland Ceoil (talk) 21:31, 24 September 2017 (UTC)


 * "It was finally demolished in 1865." -- Moot use of the word "finally"; demolition is final, surely?
 * Done Ceoil (talk)


 * "The potential designers were acutely aware..." -- Redundent use of the word "acutely" wereas just sticking with "aware" has as much impact;
 * Done Ceoil (talk)

19th century build
 * "The following February, the designs of the architect William Burges, then aged 35,..." -- Why the age?
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 24 September 2017 (UTC)


 * "From the start Burges, realsied he would vastly exceed the initial budget..." -- Pronoun here as only Burges is mentioned in the sentence before, so no ambiguity
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 24 September 2017 (UTC)


 * "Burges was 'unconcerned'" -- Who said this? Why the inverts?
 * Done Ceoil (talk)

Reworded Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * "He died on 26 May 1876, and passed the task onto his son Robert" -- Was this via a seance?
 * "By then the build was seen as nearing its completion" -- by who?
 * Clarified Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Done Ceoil (talk)


 * "During the first building phase, three firms contractors were employed..." -- missing word somewhere?
 * Done Ceoil (talk)


 * "Through his ability, by the careful leadership of his team, by total artistic control, and by vastly exceeding the intended budget, Burges produced a building that in size is little more than a large parish church but in impression is described in Lawrence and Wilson's study as "a cathedral becoming such a city and one which posterity may regard as a monument to the Almighty's praise." -- Overly long, could do with adjusting. Also, it tails off towards the end as a result, presumably, of a missing word?
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

20th and 21st centuries
 * "Work on the building continued well into the 20th century." --Repetition, as mentioned two paragraphs up;
 * Done Ceoil (talk)

Upto "Exterior", more soon. This is very good.  Cassianto Talk   20:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I agree with all of these; working through. Ceoil (talk) 21:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Architecture
 * Repeated use of the word "gargoyle" in the multi image. Could you not have the multi image header as "Saint Fin Barre gargoyles", or something like that, with the location only of each gargoyle below each photo? Similar to this, I suppose. Also, is a left align multi image the best to use here as it squeezes the text to the right, almost reducing each line to four words on a small screen?
 * "A number of sub-contractors were hired and fired..." -- You are a poet and you didn't even know it! Sounds good, but too tabloidesque for my liking. "Fired" also sounds frightfully American...
 * Check for a space in "Weathercock", which should be one word; I always use weather vane, which uses a space. Up until now, I always thought this was a weather cock.
 * "...who wanted the church to be perceived as in continuity with the one true faith of the ancient past." → "...who wanted the church to retain the continuity with the one true faith of the ancient past." Another thing with this line is that the end of it: "...the one true faith of the ancient past" sounds like a quote? Is it?  Otherwise, it sounds a bit POVy?
 * All done. I copied your multi image template elsewhere. Ceoil (talk) 14:11, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Sculpture
 * "He oversaw nearly all aspects of the design" -- who, Burges or McLeod?
 * Watch for "Burges's" and "Burges'" as we currently have the two variations.
 * "...would be the first realise the end of days and make an early entrance into heaven." -- are missing a "to" somewhere?
 * "...a number of which, including the figures of Adam and Eve, the dead rising from their graves and the welcoming angels, were intended to be fully nude." -- I had to read this several times for it to make complete sense. If I've estimated it right, would: "...a number of which were intended to be nude, including the figures of Adam and Eve, the dead rising from their graves and the welcoming angels." (I've omitted the "fully" intentionally here as nude is nude, in my book.  Do we need to link "nude"?)
 * All done. Ceoil (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Graveyard
 * Fine

Plan and elevation
 * Do we need to repeat ref 44 so quickly? The fist one could be got rid of, quite easily.
 * "The building is only 180 feet long..." POV. One person's minuscule 180ft is another person's massive 180ft, unless cited otherwise. To get around this, you could say: "The building is 180 feet long, but contains all of the traditional elements of a cathedral in much greater size."
 * All done. Ceoil (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Up to "Main features". More later.  Cassianto Talk   09:33, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat
It reads very well, and seems to cover what I would expect (although I have no experience in writing about historical architecture, so take that as you will!) The following are a few suggestions – up to you whether you take them on board or not, as most of them are stylistic, rather than what others may object to at FAC.


 * 19th century build
 * Should "19th century build" be "19th-century build"?
 * "built in the British Isles since St Paul's": as St Paul's is not an uncommon name, maybe add "in London" at the end?
 * It may be worth moving "Burges disregarded the £15,000 budget, and produced a design that he estimated would cost twice as much.[15] Despite the protestations of fellow competitors, it won.[18]" back a couple of sentences, as we have his approach to the design placed after the information that he won.
 * The "However" at a sentence start will irk some. You could avoid it by reworking as "Burges realised early on that he would vastly exceed the budget;[12] potential of his design was recognised by the Bishop of Cork, John Gregg, who consistently backed him, and lobbied for additional funding.[21]", or similar (your call of course)
 * "He says in a January 1877 letter to Gregg mentions that" needs re-working
 * "(In the future) ..." should this be in square brackets?
 * For that quote (of 54 words), the MoS advises that quotes over 40 words should be block quotes, rather than inline. I'm not over fussed which way you go with it tho!
 * You have Burges' and Burges's – best to pick one

Done down to the end of the 20th and 21st centuries: more to come. - SchroCat (talk) 13:08, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Final lot:


 * Interior, Main features:
 * "Burges designed a majority": the majority?
 * "formed red stone from Little Island and Fermoy": I think this source of the stone is repeated from above
 * "decorated with a carving of the head of John the Baptist positioned." I'm not sure what the "positioned" is – is this an architectural term, or an out-of-place word?


 * Stained glass
 * There is a "However" starting a sentence, which will make some twitch at FAC


 * Organ
 * "The action on the Great": not sure what "the Great" is, or why the capital

Very enjoyable read. It's mostly nit-picking stuff from me as I'm not an architectural historian, but from a layman's point of view, it tells me all I'd ever want to know and a lot more! Ping me if you have any questions on any of my points, and please do give me a nudge when you go to FAC. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 14:45, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for the read, edits and most helpful review. Will work address these today. Ceoil (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Got all these now, cheers. Ceoil (talk) 15:48, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Comments from KJP1
First, apologies it's taken a while to get to this, and second, thanks so much for turning it from the poor apology that it was into a fascinating article. Some comments below.

Lead
 * "It was once of the Diocese of Cork; it is the primary of three cathedrals in the Diocese of Cork, Cloyne and Ross" - perhaps, "It was once in the Diocese of Cork; it is now the primary of three cathedrals in the Diocese of Cork, Cloyne and Ross"
 * "who designed the outer and interior architecture, the entrance sculptures, the stained glass, mosaics and interior furniture" - "outer and inner architecture" sounds a bit odd to me, perhaps, "who designed the building, the sculptures, the stained glass, mosaics and interior furniture"
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Finbarr of Cork
 * "when it either lost influence or was destroyed during Norse invasion" - "a Norse invasion", or "Norse invasions" - and link Norse?
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

19th-century build
 * "and elevations for the Lille Cathedral" - think the "the" can be lost.
 * "Potential of his design was recognised by.." - but it could find a new home, here, "The potential of his design was recognised by..."
 * "including local merchants including William Crawford of the.." - perhaps get rid of the double "including" with, "including local merchants such as William Crawford of the..."
 * I think the cite for the "whole affair" block quote should come at the end of the quote. And I quite like quote boxes but it is just a preference.
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

20th and 21st centuries
 * "At the end of that century" - not clear which, perhaps, "At the end of the 20th century".
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Architecture
 * "The cathedral's style is Early French Gothic, Burges' preferred period which he used for his own home, The Tower House, in London." - I wonder if both Early French Gothic and the Tower House need citing? I can get them, if you need it. And I'd probably link early French Gothic. And I wonder if the whole section would flow as one, comprehensive, paragraph, rather than three short ones?
 * Not done. Planning an expansion here. Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Sculpture
 * "Burges had worked on some 844 features for the building, of which around 412 were for its interior" - are the "features" sculptures, in which case it may be clearer to say so? Or are they more than just the sculptures?
 * "commanding from his office in Buckingham Street and many site visits" - "commanding from his office in Buckingham Street and on many site visits"?
 * "with the humorous intention being that Corkonians, forewarned by the angel blowing his two trumpets..." - haven't heard that. Was it Burges's joke, or a later attribution? A cite?
 * "a number of which were intended to be nude, including the figures of Adam and Eve, the dead rising from their graves and the welcoming angels, were intended to be fully nude. Some of the committee members were uncomfortable with titillation, and Burges was asked to provide clothed designs, or modesty providing loin cloths.." - a few things. the first part appears to repeat itself; "were intended to be nude" and "were intended to be fully nude". And I'm pretty certain titillation wasn't Burges's intention! And does "modesty-providing" need a hyphen, indeed is it needed at all? Perhaps, "a number of which were intended to be nude, including the figures of Adam and Eve, the dead rising from their graves and the welcoming angels. Some of the building committee members were uncomfortable with this, and Burges was asked to provide clothed designs, or loin cloths or ..."

Plan and elevation
 * "at 180 feet lenght," - sp.
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Main features
 * "This aspect of the interior is in marked contrast to the austere grey and coldness of the exterior." - not sure about "and coldness". Perhaps, "is in marked contrast to the uniform and austere grey of the exterior."
 * "Five stone relief figures, assumed to be the four evangelists, and Saint Paul sitting on an upturned "pagan" altar, and a winged dragon below the reading stand." - Is this missing a main verb?
 * "and supported by a stem, also red marble, and supported by green marble shafts" - I think you could lose the second "supported".

Stained glass
 * "This fact, according to Maurice Carey means that, "in consequence, the windows have a consistent cohesive style and follow a logical sequence in subject matter"" - a little clunky? Perhaps, "According to Maurice Carey, "in consequence, the windows have a consistent cohesive style and follow a logical sequence in subject matter"?
 * Done Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Pipe organ
 * "Since then the upkeep of the organ has been the most expensive part of the cathedral's upkeep". - is that really the case. Expensive, certainly, but more expensive than the maintenance of the exterior stonework? However, if the source says it?

Sources
 * I'm getting a Harv warning for Colum Hourihane and I can't see him cited anywhere.
 * Removed. Ceoil (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

That's it from me. It's a delight to read, and I think all of the important historical, architectural and design features are well covered. Many thanks indeed. At this rate, Burges and his works will soon have the most comprehensive coverage of any individual architect on Wikipedia. Thanks and best regards. KJP1 (talk) 06:49, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi KJP1, working through these, thanks indeed. Agree the Architecture sect is underdeveloped yet. Bear with me! Ceoil (talk) 15:22, 8 October 2017 (UTC)