Wikipedia:Peer review/Shannen Says/archive2

Shannen Says


Hello everyone. This article is about a WE tv reality show that documented the preparations for actress Shannen Doherty's wedding to photographer Kurt Iswarienko. I created this article back in July 2016. I put it up for a peer review in 2018, but that did not receive any commentary, and I withdrew the FAC in 2020 due to a lack of activity. I would like to try and put this article through the FAC process again, but I would like to make sure to get as much feed back as possible prior to doing that. Any suggestion for improvement would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance! Aoba47 (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

NØ
I will place my placeholder here. TV shows are not really my area of expertise but I will try my best to be helpful in any way possible!--NØ 14:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I appreciate it. Aoba47 (talk) 01:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Since the "We" in "We TV" is not an acronym, should the stylization be used here? I have the same doubt about "RelativelyREAL".
 * Good point. I have removed the stylizations for both. Aoba47 (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I usually use a comma after names of places mid-sentence, e.g. "Malibu, California,"
 * I have added a comma for California. I do not think there is another instance of this, but I may be over-looking another one (or more). Aoba47 (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Are the names of the shows she watched in preparation known?
 * She watched Keeping Up with the Kardashians and one of the shows with Tori Spelling and Dean McDermott. Spelling and McDermott have done a few reality shows together (Tori & Dean: Home Sweet Hollywood and Tori & Dean: sTORIbook Weddings for instance) and in the interview, Doherty only says that she say Tori & Dean so it is not explicitly clear which one she saw. A majority of the coverage was comparing Doherty and Spelling because they both worked together on Beverly Hills, 90210 and I tried to make that connection clear in the prose.
 * Oddly enough, Doherty says that the show was inspired by Anthony Bourdain: No Reservations and Deadliest Catch, but I do not think that is notable enough to mention in the lead (but it is interesting to me that Doherty was inspired by shows that are outside of the typical celebrity life reality show genre). Aoba47 (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree with you on both points here.--NØ 08:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * "Shannen Says and Doherty received mixed reviews" might have more of a ring than the way this sentence is currently written.
 * That is much better and I have used that wording in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * "since she had previously been married to actor Ashley Hamilton and poker player Rick Salomon that ended in 1994 and 2003, respectively" could just be "since her previous marriages to actor Ashley Hamilton and poker player Rick Salomon ended in 1994 and 2003, respectively"
 * Thank you for the suggestion, and I have used it. Aoba47 (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Do you think changing "unidentified television network" to "another television network" would be detrimental to conveying its meaning?
 * I used the original wording to really emphasize that the network was unknown, but I agree that your wording is better. The current wording is awkward and the emphasis is unneeded as your wording covers that much more naturally. Aoba47 (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The ref says "Realscreen" but the prose says "Realscrean.com"
 * I have gone with Realscreen.com so I have changed it in the citation to match this. Aoba47 (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks great now.--NØ 08:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * There seems to be inconsistency in whether commas are used after a date mid-sentence, e.g. "April 10, 2012 in the United States", "April 10, 2012, as Shannen Says, Season 1"
 * Good point. I believe that I have addressed all the dates, but let me know if I missed anything. Aoba47 (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * "All of the episodes have been made available from Amazon Video" - Would another word be more appropriate than "from" here?
 * Revised to "on". Aoba47 (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Could "as part of" just be "in" in "As part of an article for The Washington Post"?
 * I do understand your point, and I would not mind changing it in the future. I originally put this wording in to emphasize that this was a smaller part of a larger article to avoid any potential confusion or misinterpretation. I have also used "In X publication," elsewhere in the section so I thought it would be a nice change of pace to vary the sentence structure. Aoba47 (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That makes perfect sense.--NØ 08:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * There should be a reference directly after the quote from Berkshire
 * I do not think it is necessary since the citation is in the next sentence so it would cover both of these sentences, but I have still copied it regardless. Aoba47 (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Someone once told me this at one of my first FACs but I have never been able to locate any MOS that mandates this. So should be fine either way, really.--<b style="color:purple">N</b><b style="color:teal">Ø</b> 08:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm a little unsure about the summary sentence for the last paragraph in Critical reception, since there are just two reviews and the second one seems to be saying that Doherty "did not 'sob for an hour'" like Spelling? Maybe I will get it if you clarify this, though.
 * I ended up removing the Boston Herald review. It was all from one sentence, She had her own reality show (“Shannen Says” in 2012) and she didn’t sob for an hour, Tori Spelling., in the article and that kind of throw-away line is probably not notable enough. I moved the MTV News bit up to the second paragraph because it is a commentary on Doherty's personality so I think it should fit there. Aoba47 (talk) 01:39, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Perfect.--<b style="color:purple">N</b><b style="color:teal">Ø</b> 08:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * My review is more focused on prose and I didn't look at the references. The article is in great shape in my opinion. Great work here!--<b style="color:purple">N</b><b style="color:teal">Ø</b> 18:01, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your review. If it is alright with you, I will address your comments tomorrow. Aoba47 (talk) 02:29, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the review. I believe that I have addressed everything. I hope you are having a good week so far! Aoba47 (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Aoba. The article looks great. See you at the FAC! You have a great week too.--<b style="color:purple">N</b><b style="color:teal">Ø</b> 08:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the kind words and for all your help with this review. I always find it super weird to revisit older articles I worked on. I may have only worked on this one six years ago, but it feels like a lifetime ago since I was in such a different space at the time. Aoba47 (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments by FrB.TG

 * What makes Realscrean.com a high-quality reliable source?
 * Removed. It was only used twice in the article. One instance was already supported by another citation and the other instance was it calling the show a "docu-series" which is likely not important. I think I added that part because there was a time when people were using that term a lot (like with the Lindsay reality television show. Aoba47 (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2022 (UTC)


 * "Sneak peek" is too informal. I would call it a preview or something similar.
 * Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2022 (UTC)


 * "172,000 people watched the premiere" - I suggest not starting a sentence with a number.
 * Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I would cut down on the use of however. It tends to be unpopular among FAC reviewers.
 * Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Very well-written otherwise. Let me know once you take it to FAC. FrB.TG (talk) 20:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the review. I believe that I have addressed everything. I hope you have a great weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Pseud 14
Overall, the article appears to be in good shape. Great work. I hope my comments are helpful. Pseud 14 (talk) 14:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It focuses on the preparations – Think you should refer to it as "the show" or "the series" on this instance
 * Shannen Says had low ratings, ranking below most other programs on its broadcast night – You could probably rewrite to "Shannen Says suffered from low viewership and ranked below most other programs when it debuted/premiered, despite its popularity among women between the ages of 25 and 54." Hope that reads better.
 * Shannen Says tracks the events leading up – I think the better word is documented (as my understanding is this is sort of a reality/documentary type of show)
 * and a contestant on the tenth season – think this needs to be "as a contestant"
 * Thank you for the review. Your comments were very helpful. I believe that I have addressed everything and I hope you have a great rest of your week! Aoba47 (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Made a minor edit, sorry my comment on item 2 was confusing. Looks good otherwise, give me a ping when you take it to FAC. --Pseud 14 (talk) 15:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the edit. That was completely my fault as I should have read your suggestion more carefully. It was not confusing and I take responsibility for that. I will likely keep this peer review open for a while longer to get as much feedback as possible, but I will definitely let you know when the FAC is open. Thank you again! Aoba47 (talk) 16:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments from SNUGGUMS
I'll kick this off by assessing the images: A general question about the captions: are you sure the parantheticals should be italicized? In either case, more to follow later. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 23:28, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * File:ShannenSays.jpg has an appropriate FUR
 * No qualms with File:Shannen Doherty.jpg or File:Tori Spelling at The Heart Truth 2009.jpg
 * While I don't see any good reason to doubt that File:Kim Kardashian 2009.jpg is in fact the uploader's own work, maybe you could get something where Kim's hair doesn't blend into the background so much.
 * Thank you for looking through the images. I have italicized the parenthetical information in successful FACs without an issue. I do it to distinguish the information from the rest of the caption, but I can understand what other editors prefer to not go this route. I do not think there is a policy about this. Thank you again. Aoba47 (talk) 23:52, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * My pleasure, and File:Kim Kardashian portrait 2009.jpg was definitely a good replacement for Ms. Kardashian. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 23:53, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Now for the prose:
 * The tone of "suffered" from "suffered from low viewership" doesn't sound appropriate. You'd be better off with "had low viewership".
 * Understandable. I have used your suggestion. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * It would help to add a timeframe for filming to the lead along with what reviewers liked/didn't like.
 * I added a more specific timeframe to the lead, but I am not sure what else I can add for critical consensus. I have a sentence about the series and Doherty herself were the subject of mixed reviews, but I do not think there is a clear enough theme to comfortable put into the lead. There was some mixed opinions about the drama presented on the show and if Doherty came across as likable, but I was uncertain of generalizing too much if that makes sense. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That sounds fair. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 03:16, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Normally I wouldn't recommend using Us Weekly, especially when better references are available, but were the photos exclusively published through that? If so, then I'd say making an exception by keeping it in place here would be reasonable.
 * I completely understand your concern. US Weekly did exclusively publish these photos so that's why I think it would be appropriate in this context. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Having a two-sentence paragraph under "Filming and cast" looks rather short, which makes the flow of text feel choppy. Either expand that or merge it with another one.
 * Could you clarify this point for me? I am not seeing the two-sentence paragraph in the section mentioned above? Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I meant the third paragraph, which began with "To prepare for filming" and is now part of the second. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 03:16, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification. I must have combined these two paragraphs earlier for the reason you have provided above. Aoba47 (talk) 16:26, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * You can probably unlink "guest-starred" per WP:OVERLINK when that's a commonly recognized term.
 * Good point. Unlinked. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Only the second episode has a viewership count listed. Is it because nothing is available for the others?
 * Unfortunately, nothing else is available for the others from reliable sources. This was a smaller show on a smaller network and according to reports, it fared poorly in terms of ratings so it probably just never registered on charts or was seen as notable enough to expand space in write-ups about television ratings. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure the last two paragraphs under "Broadcast history and release" could be merged.
 * Fair point. I have combined them as they do cover a similar topic. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The Huffington Post → HuffPost
 * Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Use a capital T for The Futon Critic when "The" is part of this publication's title.
 * Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Don't use italics for MarketWatch
 * Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * "Daily News. New York" → New York Daily News
 * Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * "SheKnows" and The Christian Post are subpar publications and I'd look for something stronger.
 * I removed the SheKnows citation as the other citation coupled with it already supported the information in the article. I replaced The Christian Post with the Associated Press. Unfortunately, I have been having trouble with archiving the new citation, but I will try to do it at a later date. Aoba47 (talk) 01:17, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Except for maybe episode ratings, I believe this has all the details needed to qualify as comprehensive enough in coverage to meet FA standards. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 14:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all the help. I believe that I have addressed everything, but let me know if there is anything that I can do to further improve the article. Aoba47 (talk) 01:17, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Nothing else comes to mind at the moment, and it was my pleasure :). <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 03:16, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It is always appreciated. Aoba47 (talk) 16:26, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments from ChrisTheDude

 * "Shannen Says was initially going to be developed by Doherty's production company, No Apologies Production" - last word was plural in the lead
 * "The series was produced by No Apologies Production" - and again
 * "and RelativityReal." - in the lead you wrote the Real part in caps
 * "about her relationship with husband Dean McDermott and Keeping Up with the Kardashians." - can you re-phrase this so that it doesn't read like she had a relationship with both her husband and Keeping Up with the Kardashians?
 * "The second episode aired on Tuesday night in the same time slot, and two episodes were aired every Sunday night in the same time slot until the end of the season" - I would clarify that the first episode also aired on a Tuesday and that the second episode was a week later, and maybe also mention the gap between eps 2 and 3 (i.e. the first Sunday night episode wasn't on the Sunday immediately after ep 2)
 * "Doherty described Shannen Says as a one-off created" - created isn't a noun, so maybe you mean creation?
 * That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all of your suggestions. You have helped to improve the article a lot and remove some of the sillier mistakes. Have a great rest of your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 16:13, 5 June 2022 (UTC)