Wikipedia:Peer review/Silver Reef, Utah/archive2

===Silver Reef, Utah=== This peer review discussion has been closed. This article was promoted to Good article status in December of 2010, and I plan on taking it to FAC within the next few months or so. From December 2010 to now, several editors and I have worked to ready this article for a future FAC, and since we're done with our biggest project (converting references to the sfn template), we're now moving on to the next step: peer review. I would like a reviewer/reviewers to review this article thoroughly and state what work we still have to get done in order to bring the article to FAC. I'd prefer the reviewer(s) comment section by section as the reviewer in this article's first peer review did here. Thanks, The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 21:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC) :Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Peer review/Silver Reef, Utah/archive2.
 * Previous peer review
 * Comments from Jappalang

Demographics
 * "... to work for Colbath. Alex and his wife, Mayme, lived in Silver Reef until the 1950s, and after they left, Silver Reef was completely abandoned."
 * Why the sudden use of first name (Alex)? Why not "... to work for Colbath, who lived with his wife, Mayme, in Silver Reef until the 1950s.  After the Colbaths' departure, Silver Reef was completely abandoned."?

History
 * "The Anasazi were nomads who moved with the animals they hunted."
 * Suggestion: "The Anasazi were nomads who moved their homes to follow the migration of the animals they hunted."


 * "The Anasazi were also farmers and gardeners, and grew such foods as corn, wheat, rye, and barley"
 * Suggestion: "The Anasazi were also farmers and gardeners, who grew crops such as corn, wheat, rye, and barley"


 * "Anasazi only occasionally lived in permanent dwellings, as they followed herds of deer that they hunted. Their temporary dwellings were made of sticks and leaves. Bark was often used as a roof. The Anasazi also built dwellings out of rocks, usually along the side of a mountain."
 * It was already mentioned previously the relationship between them and the animals, so it is redundant here.
 * Suggestion: "Anasazi typically constructed temporary dwellings out of sticks and leaves, with bark often used for the roofs. Occasionally, they built more permanent dwellings out of rocks, usually along the side of a mountain."


 * "Shooting matches between members of the Silver Reef Rifle Club and sometimes residents of nearby towns took place on the horse race track."
 * Either "sometimes" is in the wrong place or "between" is not the word you are looking for.
 * By this, I meant that members of the Silver Reef Rifle Club had shooting matches against each other and occasionally had shooting matches against residents of other towns. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 13:46, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case, simply replace "between" with "among". "Between" is used for one party against one party (mano-a-mano); "among" is used when there are more one parties involved in the interaction.  Jappalang (talk) 02:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * "In turn, the Mormons were grateful for the money and marketability of their goods." does not seem right...

Decline
 * "The Rice building couldn't hold all of the prisoners either, ...": Watch the contractions!


 * "$75.00": Are the trailing two significant figures needed?


 * "In 1916, Alex Colbath organized the Silver Reef Consolidated Mining Company" is also in the earlier Demographics section. Find another way to rephrase this to eliminate the sense of deja vu.


 * "... as there wasn't enough ore to keep the operation profitable during the Great Depression.": Again, drop the contractions!

Tourism
 * The last sentences in all the paragraphs here are unsourced.
 * I'm not sure if the last sentence of the second paragraph needs a source: "Main Street, once a mile long, is now only a few hundred yards long and is surrounded by private homes." Perhaps the statement that Main Street was once a mile long needs a source, but a simple look at Google Maps shows that Main Street (labeled as Wells Fargo Road) is surrounded by private homes. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 16:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The lengths ("a mile" and "few hundred yards") are statistics that would need references. If Main Street is now torn down, who can vouch it was "only a few hundred yards long"?  Linking to Google Maps can be a source (I think...); can the link be archived?  Jappalang (talk) 02:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * When you use the Google Maps search engine (url maps.google.com), it brings you to the location you searched for, but the URL doesn't change. I've seen editors use Google Maps as a reference, but I'm not entirely sure how they do it. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 02:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Would it not be possible to cite it to a dead-tree map (e.g. Rand McNally) with the page number and grid-reference? Jappalang (talk) 03:28, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

In popular culture
 * Seriously, such sections are not needed. The current content can be rephrased and worked into Tourism: I presume that no one can provide a significant context/explanation to why Silver Reef was chosen for the films (and not simply chosen because it was cheap and available).  Nevertheless, I can also think that someone possible wanted this data because some fans of Electric Horseman and viewers of Treasure House wanted to visit the area and capture the sights personally.  Personally, I doubt so (it would be more convincing if Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was actually filmed there instead of just "scouted", which is incredibly trivial for the town's article, though can be included in the film's).
 * The section has been merged with Tourism (changing the header to Tourism and popular culture), but I am not convinced of the significance. That is my personal opinion though.  Jappalang (talk) 03:28, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Images
 * File:View of Silver Reef.jpg: Where was this published before 1923? Creation is not publication.  The date field is also presumably incorrect.  Furthermore, why is Utah State Historical Society named as the source when the original upload log states the source as http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ut-silverreef.html?
 * It was a mistake in where the image came from. I originally thought it came from Legends of America, but I later found out that it came from the Utah State Historical Society and that Legends of America had acquired it from USHS. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 13:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The immediate source is Legends of America; none of us have any idea is they have altered the image since receiving it from USHS. The description or source field can state the origin, but the immediate source should be the first one presented there.  In any case, the concern is of the  claim.  For published material, this is only true if the photographs are published (i.e. copies made and distributed to the public) before 1923 or that the copies are not copyrighted properly if published between 1923–1989.  Publication between 1989–2002 can still result in a valid copyright.  Otherwise, unpublished material are copyrighted till 70 years after the death of their authors (or 120 years if unknown).  In the two cases here, if the photographs are claimed to be unpublished, the lifespans of George Ottinger and Kathy Weiser should be ascertained.  Jappalang (talk) 02:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking this is the Ottinger we're looking for. His death, in the year 1917, would have been 94 years ago. However, according to Legends of America, Kathy Weiser took the first visible image in 2008. If she's dead, which she probably isn't, she hasn't been dead for long. But considering George Ottinger was the photographer, I would think it would be fine. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 02:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, not quite. The first step of determining the copyrights of a US material is to find out whether and when it was published (which can lead to surprising results: a 200 year old work can still be copyrighted by the author's heirs if it was first published between 1989 and 2002).  When (and where) was View of Silver Reef.jpg published?  Jappalang (talk) 22:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I do know that the photograph was published in Stephen Carr's The Historical Guide to Utah Ghost Towns. The first edition was published in 1972, and Carr mentions that the photo came from a collection of photos that had only recently been published. So my guess is that it was published sometime between 1950 and 1970, which would mean it is copyrighted. Since it's copyrighted, and I didn't get permission from the owners before uploading it, I'm guessing the next thing to do would be to delete it and find a replacement image. It also looks like it's used in the userbox of WikiProject American Old West, but it shouldn't be too hard to find a replacement for this. I believe this also applies to File:Cosmopolitan Restaurant 1800s.jpg, which, presumably, should also be deleted and replaced.
 * On a related note, I found out that photos owned by the Washington County Historical Society are free to use as long as proper credit is given, so I have located suitable replacement photos that are owned by WCHS. All I have to do is upload the replacement photos, place them in the article, and tag the non-free use photos for deletion. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 23:16, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If that ("had only recently been published"; i.e. 1950s–70s) is indeed the case, then yes it would be safer to remove the pictures (and delete them); checking the copyright of the photographs would entail pursuing the publication and verifying its copyrights.
 * On the matter relating to Washington County Historical Society, care should be taken. "Owning" those photographs does not mean the Society is the copyright holder; purchase or donations do not necessarily involve the transfer of copyrights (a donator might be doing so because he thinks the society or museum is only going to exhibit the material or publish them for non-commercial uses).  Make sure they are the copyright owners.  Sometimes these organizations are not certain in copyright laws as well.  Jappalang (talk) 02:13, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If they weren't the copyright holders, wouldn't they give credit to the legal copyright holders? The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 17:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That depends. It is mostly a matter of courtesy to give credit to the legal copyright holders, or they are obliged to under the terms of a contract.  To give an example, "Sure, take these photographs and show them for everyone to see.  But make sure, they are not used by someone else to make profits" (permission to the museum for general publication, non-commercial to any other re-users) is different from "Okay, have these photographs and use them however you wish, but I want to be credited in whatever publication they are going to be in" (permission for attributed general use, this would be similar to the Creative Commons Share-alike license).  Jappalang (talk) 03:21, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * File:Cosmopolitan Restaurant 1800s.jpg: Same as above; the url in this case is http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ut-silverreef2.html.
 * See my response above. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 13:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Re-engaging here to avoid confusion above: This work, a photograph claimed to be taken in the 1800s (which means from 1800–1899) credits Kathy Weiser as its author. That is frankly hard to believe in light of the above ("Kathy Weiser took the first visible image in 2008").  Legends of America also does not credit her as the photographer.  Jappalang (talk) 22:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * See my comments above. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 23:16, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * File:Wells Fargo and Company Express Building.jpg: This is indeed taken by P. Kent Fairbanks; however, he is not a HABS, NPS, or federal employee. Mr Philip Kent Fairbanks is an architect, a member of the American Institute of Architects (AIA), Utah chapter.  The permission is wrong; the LoC has noted "occasionally material from a historical society or other source is included in the photographs or data pages. These materials are noted by the presence of a line crediting the original source, and it may be necessary to receive permission from the owner of such material before it can be published."
 * This one's a little tougher, since I'm not the one that uploaded it. I'll contact the original uploader, User:Nyttend, and see what we can work out. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 16:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * According to http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/ut0152, the image was created by HABS; obviously he was working in their employment at the time that he took the photo. HABS employs many people on a temporary basis who aren't full-time government workers; even college students are sometimes employed during summers, so it's far more likely that Fairbanks was working for them for a short while than that LOC is incorrect here.  Nyttend (talk) 17:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The LoC's fields are generic; if you flip through the data pages for that HABS entry, you will find that they are created by members of the AIA (of which Fairbanks is one). HABS is a "tripartite agreement between the American Institute of Architects, the Library of Congress, and the NPS"; HABS is a project worked on by 3 bodies.  The AIA is not the NPS nor working for them.  AIA members are not NPS employees.  commons:Template:HABS is wrong in claiming that the work is "based on a work of a National Park Service employee". The more correct reasoning would be to say the HABS program was created with the agreement among all parties that all original photographs are released into the public domain (K. 10, p. 21; A. 3, p. 7, Photo specifications).  Any copyrighted material would bear the archival/external photographer information (p. 17, ibid).  Jappalang (talk) 02:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * commons:Template:HABS has been corrected to reflect the true nature of the photograph's authorship (and copyright), so this is resolved. Jappalang (talk) 02:12, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Sources
 * What makes Gary B. Speck, author and publisher of http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gtusa/usa/ut/silver-reef.htm, a reliable source? Jappalang (talk) 03:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion about this a while ago, but I can't seem to find it. Anyway, I've been trying to replace them with more reliable sources (a quick look at the page history will show that I replaced the "questionable source" with a "more reliable source"). I'll have a look at the other sources tonight and see what I can do. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 21:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

An interesting article. I am not certain if this might be of use but two cross-section examples of the sandstone at Silver Reef are available at here; the illustration is, so they are "free". The language issues seem minor and easily fixed but the images are more concerning. I am unable to access the main sources so no spot checking of close paragraphs and such. After resolving the issues, this article should stand a fair chance at FAC. Jappalang (talk) 08:15, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Malleus Fatuorum
 * Lead
 * 1) "In 1879, a fire destroyed several businesses, but the residents rebuilt the buildings that had been destroyed ...". So what did the fire destroy? Businesses or buildings?
 * 2) "However, in 1875, when two bankers from Salt Lake City sent William Barbee to the site to stake claims, he staked 21 claims,[2] and as a result, many local miners came to the area." That sentence doesn't really work on several levels. First of all, given that "however" is synonymous with "nevertheless" in this context, the following "when two bankers ..." bit doesn't make sense. In addition, Barbee didn't stake his 21 claims (on behalf of the bank(s)?) when he was sent from Salt Lake City.
 * 3) "When the silver mines in nearby Pioche closed, businessmen from Pioche came to "Rockpile" and established businesses." Isn't that what businessmen do, establish businesses? Was it the businessmen who moved from Pioche or the businesses? It's also rather laboured to have that "Pioche ... Pioche" in there.
 * 4) ... and as a result, many local miners came to the area". If they were "local miners" then surely they were already in the area?
 * 5) "The town had a mile-long Main Street with many businesses, some of which had been moved from Pioche". Hasn't the movement of businesses from Pioche already been covered?
 * 6) "Among them were a Wells Fargo office, the Rice building ...". There was a building called "Rice"? Or should that be "Rice Building"?
 * 7) "The mines began to close for various reasons in 1884, and as a result, people began to leave Silver Reef". That "began ... began" doesn't look very nice.
 * 8) "By 1901, most of the buildings in Silver Reef had been sent to Leeds or scrapped." Do you "scrap" a building, as opposed to demolishing it or abandoning it?
 * 9) "In 1916, mining operations in Silver Reef resumed under the direction of Alex Colbath, who organized the mines into the Silver Reef Consolidated Mining Company. These claims were purchased by the American Smelting and Refining Company ...". What claims? We started off talking about mines, not claims.


 * Geology and geography
 * 1) "The Silver Reef Mining District's main geologic resource is silver, while copper, gold, lead, and uranium are also among the district's geologic resources." What's that "while" doing there, masquerading as a linking word?
 * 2) "The silver ore in the sandstone of Silver Reef originated in the Chinle Formation and was deposited in the region after years of being carried by water into vegetation that became petrified." I don't understand that at all. The silver ore was carried by water into vegetation? What vegetation? Sandstone isn't petrified vegetation.
 * The silver was deposited in sediments and vegetation that later became petrified, so it's been found in both sandstone and petrified wood. I planned on writing about this, but never got to it. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 19:09, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) "The Pine Valley Mountain Wilderness features several different plant species". It doesn't "feature" them.
 * 2) "The average elevation of Red Cliffs Recreation Area is between 2,000 feet (610 m) and 3,000 feet (910 m)." Why is that relevant to an article about Silver Reef?


 * History
 * 1) "Immediately following the initial silver rush, a town site was platted". What does "platted" mean?
 * It means the townsite was laid out and a plat map produced. I think I should link to plat in the article to avoid this problem in the future. The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 19:17, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But "plat" is a noun, therefore it doesn't have a past tense "platted". Malleus Fatuorum 19:47, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * How about "Immediately following the initial silver rush, a plat map was drawn..."? The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 19:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If a plat is a map, as the linked Wikipedia article says (although my dictionary defines it differently as a small area of land), then to say that a map is a map is redundant. But this usage of the word "plat" seems to be uniquely American, and perhaps best avoided by a more general term such as "town plan"? Malleus Fatuorum 20:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) "Although Mormonism was not Silver Reef's main religion ...". Two things: first of all towns don't have religions, and secondly is it really likely that anyone reading this article won't know what "religion" means? I very much doubt, so why the link? I think you need to look through the article and remove similar links to common terms. Malleus Fatuorum 21:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Tourism and popular culture
 * 1) "It currently serves as a subject of photography." What on Earth does that mean?
 * 2) "... it served guests European cuisine until 2010". What is "European cuisine"? Fish and chips? Paella? Pasta dishes? Chicken tikka massala?

Comment from Truthkeeper

Responding to request from GOCE and posting here as requested. I've only read the first para and ran into trouble about halfway through. If you're asking for a second opinion about whether the page needs copyediting, I'd have to agree with Malleus. See the example below. "In 1875, two bankers from Salt Lake City sent William Barbee to the site to stake claims. He staked 21 claims,[2] resulting in an influx of miners. To accommodate the them, Barbee established a town called Bonanza City. Property values in Bonanza City were high, so several miners settled on a ridge north of Bonanza City and named their settlement 'Rockpile'.[3] When the silver mines in nearby Pioche closed, businessmen came to 'Rockpile'. Soon after, the town was renamed Silver Reef, after the nearby sandstone formations in which the silver was located, which gave the appearance of an ocean reef."
 * This section is confusing:
 * If only 21 claims were staked, why so many miners to the area?
 * How quickly was Bonanza City built (a few months? a year?) and why were property values high (not enough structures, rooms, or lots?). What brought businessmen to Rockpile? What kind of businessmen?
 * I realize this is the lead and only summarizing, but it's a far as I got and was quickly confused. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * When the miners heard of Barbee's claims, they came into the area to stake their own claims. The first 21 claims weren't the only ones staked; as it mentions later in the article, 37 mines were being worked at the peak of Silver Reef's activity.
 * Barbee was a miner, not a real estate man, so he set the values too high (you may not be able to set the values of your building lots now but you could back then). According to the article Barbee wrote in The Salt Lake Tribune, within a few weeks Bonanza City contained a boarding house, an assay office, a blacksmith shop, and several dwellings. By 1877 Silver Reef had surpassed Bonanza City in size.
 * Businessmen came to "Rockpile" because there were more miners there and it was too expensive to set up shop (so to speak) in Bonanza City.


 * -- The Utahraptor Talk/Contribs 23:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks for the clarifications. I wouldn't mind working on a Utah mining town article so might take a stab at it, but am a bit busy IRL at the moment so wouldn't get to it immediately. If someone else doesn't step up first, ping me. In the meantime I'll read the page so I know what I'm talking about. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:12, 23 September 2011 (UTC)