Wikipedia:Peer review/Silverchair/archive1

Silverchair


This peer review discussion has been closed. Recently passed GA, now going towards FAC. There are some comments on the talk page that have mostly been dealt with, hence asking for more! :)

Thanks, dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 02:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, APR t 03:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Avoid including galleries in articles, as per Wikipedia:Galleries. Common solutions to this problem include moving the gallery to wikicommons or integrating images with the text.[?]
 * Please reorder/rename the last few sections to follow guidelines at Guide to layout.[?]
 * Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: recognise (B) (American: recognize), realise (B) (American: realize), criticise (B) (American: criticize), ization (A) (British: isation), traveled (A) (British: travelled).
 * All British now. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 03:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 22 additive terms, a bit too much.
 * 22 alsos! Wow....fixed. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 03:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The script has spotted the following contractions: Can't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded.
 * It's the EP title. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 03:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
 * Some long sentences which I'll take a look at. I'd love to see a little more about the band's impact, Silverchair really helped drag Aussie rock out of its pub rock stagnancy and paved the way for the current burgeoning alternative rock scene. That's almost OR coming from me, but I'm sure you could find backups for that :) Just that the incredible iconic stature that Silverchair holds for many Australian musicians doesn't seem to come across. Overall it's a fantastic effort. Perhaps lacks the 'meatiness' I've come to associate with FA, but I don't know all that much about it. Good job. ~ Riana ⁂ 09:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

From delldot
Very well done, I had trouble finding stuff to criticize, hence the extreme pickiness. I'm not familiar with music aritcle standards, so please ignore anything that's way off base.
 * You say the spelling is British, shouldn't it be Australian, since they are?
 * Same thing. ;) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:31, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * For image captions, aren't you only supposed to have a full stop for full sentences?
 * "...and released albums to success and acclaim..." Show don't tell. Just give facts and let the reader decide whether they're successful (on the other hand, Alice in Chains says they were "one of the most successful..." so maybe it's OK.  Looks like other FA class band articles use success when referring to a specific thing like an album).
 * Reworded so it's a bit more like my favourite article. :) Is that OK? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe the lead should have a sentence describing their musical style/sound.
 * Might want to read through and remove some instances of "this". It's vague, the reader won't necessarily know what "this" refers to.  You can use "the event" or something instead.
 * "...long time schoolmate..." In American English this would be "longtime", is it different in British or Australian?
 * "They played many shows around the Hunter Valley region in their early teens. They participated in Youthrock in 1994, a nationally recognised competition for school-based bands, although they did not win the competition." Many is vague. Both sentences start with they, a little repetitive. Can you find a way to rephrase the 'although' part?  That sounds a bit awkward to me for some reason. Maybe "...but did not win."
 * "The prize included Triple J recording the song and SBS filming the video." Could this be reworded? Maybe "As part of the the prize, Triple J recorded..."
 * "...was well received, with All Music Guide..." According to this, "Using 'with' as an additive link leads to wordy and awkward prose."  Here's another one: "...with Mac again joining the band on Young Modern and on the Across the Great Divide tour."
 * "...taking a 12 month break" WP:MOSNUM recommends non breaking spaces between numbers and units, but I don't know time measurements like months count.
 * "Freak Show reached #2 in Canada, while Neon Ballroom reached #5." I could swear I just recently read somewhere that you're not supposed to use "while" except to emphasize something that's happening concurrently or to emphasize real contrast.
 * "during the time of his disorder" sounds awkward to me. Maybe "while he was suffering from the disorder"? "felt a slave to writing it." Also sounds awkward.
 * "Neva Chonin attributed this success to the album's more mature sound." I would reword this so it's clear that he's calling the sound mature. This way it sounds like the article's commenting that the sound is mature. The quotation marks suggested by Drewcifer would also work.
 * "numerous record labels" - vague, like many. If you could find a source, it would be great to say just how many.
 * I removed "numerous". No idea how many. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Upon the album being released, numerous critics stated that the album was more artistic than previous works." Maybe "Upon the album's release"?  and maybe commented rather than stated?
 * "During the tour, Johns took heavy reactive arthritis medication; this forced the band to cancel several shows" what does "heavy" mean here? That he took a lot of it?  Or that it was a particularly strong drug?  This sentence leaves me curious: does he have arthritis, or was he taking the drugs for some... uh... recreational effect?  Or was he trying to harm himself?
 * Yeah, he has arthritis (AFAIK), reworded to that effect. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In American English, re-unite would be reunite, is it different in British or Australian?
 * I see it as "reunite"...:) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I could be wrong, but I don't think then-wife needs a hyphen. I think self titled does need one.

I'm gonna hit save now and keep working, so more will follow soon. Overall great work, excellent organization. delldot  talk  08:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. I've replied to stuff that hasn't been done. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Overall, excellent work. delldot  talk  09:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * More, as promised:
 * Isn't organizations American spelling? Maybe do a find and replace for 'zation' and 'ize'.
 * In American English it would be song writing -> songwriting, again don't know if it's different with British. But it should be consistent.
 * "17-year gap" - I don't think you need a hyphen here, could be wrong.
 * I think you do...meh. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Whup, yup, you're right. Heh, see, now I've learned two things today!  :-P  delldot   talk  11:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "the fifth straight Silverchair album" - does this mean the fifth one in a row? Not clear on the meaning (I'm picturing albums that are attracted to albums of the opposite gender...) Also a little repetitive with the single called "Straight Lines".
 * Not sure how to avoid the "Straight Lines" stuff. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I was just saying not to use 'straight album' in such close proximity to using the album name "Straight Lines". Using the name of the album is fine.  How about "the fifth Silverchair album in a row" if that's the idea it's trying to convey?   delldot   talk  10:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Erlewine admitted the band were showing..." I think admitted is a word to avoid. It sounds POV to me here.
 * Some of the stuff under Musical style seems like it belongs under a separate "reception" section or something.
 * Hmm...I've heard that before, and will think about it. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Johns took regular medication for his reactive arthritis" still gives me trouble. Did he take too much of it? Or have an adverse reaction? Why did taking his normal, prescribed medication make him have to cancel shows?
 * Because reactive arthritis makes you weak? That's my assumption... I'll try and imply that. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * So was it the medication or the arthritis that made him cancel? You might think of removing this sentence if there's not much info on it.  I wouldn't imply stuff that's not in the ref.   delldot   talk  10:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There are still a bunch of instances of ", with". Maybe try a semicolon instead for some.
 * "Clayton Bolger described Young Modern as yet another improvement..." If he used the words "yet another improvement", they should be in quotes. If not, it should be rephrased.
 * "He said that much of the band's, and his, success, came as a result of them trying to push themselves harder in recording and writing." This sounds awkward to me. Maybe "the success of himself and the band..." but this sounds too stuffy.  I also have a problem with the "them".  Could you say "resulted from trying"?
 * There are a few instances of passive voice throughout the article, which I think is considered weak writing (yes, passive voice was used in this sentence). For example, "was praised by reviewers" -> "Reviewers praised", or maybe "it received praise".
 * "noting that the band were more unpredictable..." and "noting that it stood out in an otherwise dull market" You shouldn't use words like noted or pointed out (not that you use the latter) unless you're talking about an objective fact. I think WP:Words to avoid discusses this, but I'm too lazy to check.  I think there are a few more instances of this kind of wording in the article.
 * I dunno...I looked at WTA and it doesn't really mention "noted" (etc.) in this case (a word which I use too often, but that's another story). I'll take a look at some rewordings. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, but I think "self producing" requires a hyphen, like most compound words with self.
 * "containing some overly complex music" - how complex is overly complex? Is it trying to convey the impression of "too complex"? If he used this wording, use quotation marks.  Also, some seems redundant.
 * "Self producing allowed the band to do so without record company pressures." Sounds awkward.
 * "Gillies described Silverchair, and Young Modern, as "arty", explaining the band "all like the arty kind of life"." - kind of redundant
 * In the Personnel section, I think the first paragraph is too introductory for this far down in the article and should either go in the lead or somewhere higher up.
 * Paragraph removed unless I can think of somewhere else to put it. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It may not be possible for all of them, but wherever it is, the web references should have publication date and author.
 * I think I've done that wherever noted. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, replied to stuff not done. Thanks heaps! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Whup, one more:
 * "Innocent Criminals changed their name to Silverchair in August 1994.[3][4] According to Joannou, this was done by choosing the name from a book of band names, when given the opportunity to prior to the release of "Tomorrow"." sounds awkward and uses passive voice. I bet you could combine these sentences, if you don't mind having mid-sentence refs.  delldot   talk  10:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

One last thing, sorry:
 * "The album yielded three Top 10 singles in Australia - "Freak", "Abuse Me", and "Cemetery", and "The Door", which reached #25." I think this needs an em dash. Also, it reads a little funny since it sounds like you're including The Door in the list of top 10's.  Maybe separating these thoughts with a semicolon or a period would work.  Or you could take out the ", which".   delldot   talk  10:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks again! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments from
Hey, sorry to have kept you waiting ;-) but been busy... so, for what they're worth, my comments... Otherwise not much else to say! Let me know should you take the article further (which I'm sure you will!)  All the very best, The Rambling Man (talk) 14:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Overlink Australia - twice in first two sentences of lead.
 * "They have won 19" - consider "As of March 2008, they have won 19..."
 * I promise to keep it updated! The alternative just seems a bit convoluted... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Year ranges in the infobox need en-dash to separate them.
 * "hiatus" not needed in the infobox in my opinion, the fact that there's a gap in the dates makes this self-evident.
 * First history section could be merged from four short paras down to two for better flow...
 * There's actually 5, but I see your point ;) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "toured with Red Hot Chili Peppers, at the same time continuing with their education in Newcastle." - how is this geographically possible? I think I know what you're saying but unless the RHCP's played exclusively in Newcastle, or they only toured in school holidays, I find this assertion a little confusing!
 * I've swapped the order (ie. Music Hall roof first) since it's even less likely that the music hall plays during school holidays! Does that read OK? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Same comment about avoiding short paragraphs really applies throughout...
 * "MP for the ALP" - expand these for those of us not familiar with politics and Australian parties.
 * Awards/accolades paragraph says they've won 20 ARIAs, other two times it's been mentioned it was 19....
 * Thanks heaps! Stuff not replied to has been done. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments by Daniel
A very good article, and the people above stole a lot of what I was going to say. Anyways...
 * " They would form a band named "Innocent Criminals"." — tone!
 * "Frogstomp's lyrical concepts were fiction-based, drawing inspiration from television, hometown tragedies,[8] and perceptions of the pain of friends." — move reference to end of sentence.
 * "The album was well received; All Music Guide and Rolling Stone both rating it in excess of four stars, praising the intensity of the album; especially "Tomorrow".[9][10]" — change to "rated", and try and ditch one of the semicolons.
 * "While experiencing the success of Frogstomp in Australia and the United States, Silverchair began recording their second studio album; Freak Show, which they released in 1997.[12]" — semicolon should be a comma.
 * " The band were subsequently pursued by record labels during their break. At the end of the break, they announced that they would be signing with Atlantic Records for North and South America" — use a synonym for "break".
 * "Johns also collaborated with then wife Natalie Imbruglia on her Counting Down the Days album." ...which was released in [month]?
 * "Silverchair reformed for one show at the Wave Aid fundraising concert in Sydney, to raise funds for aid organisations working in disaster affected areas." — synonyms for "raise" and "funds"?

I'll do the rest later; this screws with my head :) Daniel (talk) 06:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * All bar last (not sure what else to use...) are done. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments by Lara
I'll pick up where I left off in a bit.  Lara  ❤  Love  21:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC) I'll finish tomorrow.  Lara  ❤  Love  05:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * [Lead] I think you should put in the lead what year they formed. In the second paragraph, it states In 2003, following the release of Diorama, the band announced a hiatus... which then causes the reader to have to search for the formation date in the info box to put 2003 into context.
 * It does say "The band formed as "Innocent Criminals" in Newcastle, New South Wales, in 1992" in the 2nd sentence. Should I make it more clear? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * [History > Formation] In 1992, singer/guitarist Daniel Johns and drummer Ben Gillies started playing music together at their primary school, and when they both moved on to Newcastle High School, longtime schoolmate Chris Joannou joined the pair on bass. - I would split this into two sentences. In 1992 should just cover 1992.
 * The band played numerous shows... - Change The band to They.
 * four and a half stars should read four-and-a-half stars per WP:HYPHEN.
 * As Frogstomp and "Tomorrow" continued to gain popularity through that year, the group toured with Red Hot Chili Peppers and played on the roof of Radio City Music Hall, at the same time continuing with their education in Newcastle. - Where were they touring with RHCP? How were they touring and going to school in Newcastle? Was it at the same time or the same year?
 * Same year; reworded to make that a bit more clear, I hope. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * [History > Critical] 12 month break should be 12-month break per WP:HYPHEN. (Twice; second and fifth paragraphs.)
 * Both Freak Show and Neon Ballroom topped the ARIA Albums Chart, making them the band's second and third respectively to do so. - This reads funny. Should there be commas around respectively, perhaps?
 * After the announcement, Sony released The Best of Volume 1 without the band's consent. - When was the announcement made, and did anything come of Sony's release (as far as the band's reaction, legally, etc.)?
 * All I've been able to find is that it happened. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * [History > Extended] then wife should be then-wife per WP:HYPHEN. I double-checked this one, as I saw it was changed per a previous review, and two users in en-admins (NYB and Luna san) both agreed it should be hyphenated.
 * ...telling The Sydney Morning Herald; "It only took us 15 years... - The semi-colon should be removed.
 * ...we've realised, 'Fuck we've really got something special and we should just go for it'." - The closing quotation on the quote within the quote should come after the full stop as it is a full quote. Therefore it should read it.'"
 * [History > Return] Young Modern was demoed in the Hunter Valley, and recorded at Seedy Underbelly Studios in Los Angeles in 2006 with producer Nick Launay. - Suggest for better flow: In 2006, Young Modern was demoed in the Hunter Valley, and recorded at Los Angeles' Seeny Underbelly Studios with producer Nick Launay.
 * The band toured extensively before releasing the album, performing at Homebake and numerous other shows. The band... - The second The band should be changed to They.
 * Silverchair produced Young Modern independently,... - Change Young Modern to the album.
 * [Musical style] ...though their loyalty to specific genres has changed as they matured. - This is off. It should be either has changed as they have matured or remove the has altogether.
 * Added "have". dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of "Johns said" and the like in this section. This should be tweaked and reworded in places to avoid redundancy. In places where he's not being directly quoted, it isn't necessary to use "he said" or similar.
 * Tried to ease up on those. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks heaps. Stuff not replied to is done. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)