Wikipedia:Peer review/Song Dynasty/archive1

Song Dynasty
I have poured a lot of work into this article, and I would like to get feedback from others who might be knowledgeable in Chinese history before setting it up as a candidate for Featured Article status.

Can't wait to hear the responses, --PericlesofAthens 06:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Some opinions:
 * A infobox would vastly improve the outlook of the article. Same applies to many other Chinese history-related articles.
 * The section organization could be improved. I would change it to something like this:

1 History
 * 1.1 Founding of the Dynasty
 * 1.1.2 Relations with the Liao
 * 1.2 Reformation
 * 1.2.1 Reformers and Conservatives
 * 1.3 Jin invasion: Downfall of the Northern Song
 * 1.4 Southern Song Dynasty
 * 1.5 Mongol invasion: the end of the Song

2 Culture
 * 2.1 Song Dynasty arts

3 Economy

4 Technology
 * 4.1 Gunpowder
 * 4.2 Block printing

5 Society

6 Notes

7 References

8 See Also

Something like this. Just a style proposal.


 * The lead section need to be adjusted and trimmed down as according to WP:LEAD. This is a problem for many other China-related articles.
 * There are currently no inline citations. For a topic like this, you need somewhere around 50 for the article to be considered for FA status. There should be also more notes on areas where needed.
 * It's rather awkward to have "Posthumous Names" section under the Emperors when all of them is listed as "too tedious". Either include the names (I know how long they are, but they won't go over two lines), or don't include the section.
 * The "See also" section is rather unorganized (random articles related to Song), doesn't have a steamed outline of what should be included at present.

Anyways, great work! Cheers! AQu01rius (User &#149; Talk) 17:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for that feedback, I will take it all to heart. For now I will change the order of the article, skim down the lead, and fix the "See Also" section.

--PericlesofAthens 19:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I would trim down on the pieces of Song art that had nothing to do with the section they are attached to. For example, "A Southern Song Dynasty lacquer-ware dish with mother-of-pearl inlay, design of birds on tree branches, 13th century, housed in the Freer Gallery of Art" doesn't really go well with "China's first standing navy". _dk 00:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

^ True, but in all fairness, in the Navy section there is a pic with description of a Song-era junk ship. I just inserted the artwork there because the dish represents the text to its direct right that describes trade abroad. Being a fanciful lacquer-ware dish, it would be a common item of trade to the Islamic, Hindu, and South East Asian regions of the globe.

If you think this is too much though, what would you suggest if I extended the article with a short Song art gallery at the very end? Putting them at the end instead of having art pics where they don't have much association with the text?

--PericlesofAthens 07:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be a better idea, but I can't speak for the rest of the community. _dk 10:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Who really fought against the Tartar Rebellion? Lung Shan Po?
Hi, thanks for telling me about your project, but sadly my expertise doesnt really lies in Song Dynasty even though this time period appears many times in Chinese popculture (like period dramas). Also I consider Song Dynasty one of China's worst time period, when China was at her weakest (my first nomination is the 19th to 20th century). Anyways what so interesting with this era is that legend came up with a band of folkhero fighting against the injustic and corrupt government of Song court... these later bandid hero became the Water Margin... who claims that they fought against the Tartar Rebellion... however... but who did really fight against the Tartar Rebellion in reality? Was it really the bandits from Lung Shan Po. Hanchi 30 March 2007

What?
I beg to differ that China was at her weakest (China was at its weakest when it was in periods of total fragmentation). It's not that China had become significantly weaker, its because China's neighbors (Liao, Jin, Mongols) became significantly stronger and more organized. Although the early Song had been defeated by Liao, they also gained military victories against the Xi-Xia. The Southern Song resisted the Mongols for years after resisting the Jin for roughly a century (which included the death of Mongke Khan in battle against the Chinese), and built an enormous navy of some 52,000 marines, defeating the Jin in several naval engagements, including those along the Yangtze River. The general Yue Fei was one of the most capable in his day, taking back territory of the Jin on several campaigns before being betrayed by Qin Hui.

Anyways...the Water Margin is an entertaining story, but it is just that, a story, not a historical text. There is no evidence to suggest that Song Jiang fought against Khitan (Tartar) forces, and no evidence to suggest that he ever saw Fang La.

--PericlesofAthens 22:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Yue Fei deployed?
Saying that the southern Song "deployed" Yue Fei and Han Shizong suggests that they were held back for some reason, and that they were official commanders. Han Shizong was a commander during the Northern Song period, and fought the Jurchen during the invasion and afterwards. Yue Fei was began his fighting career only five years before the fall of Kaifeng, and became a commander in the unofficial militia armies that grew to defend the southern Song before they were officially sanctioned (the Song emperor pursueing a diplomatic solution).

It seems that you've covered all the bases, although maybe cutting some of the details (the iron statues in front of Yue Fei's tomb for example) that don't directly relate to the Dynasty and are found in the linked pages.

Can you find a source for the Treaty of Shaoxing requiring the executing of Yue Fei? It's not mentioned on Yue Fei which I know has had a lot of work. -- Medains 07:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)