Wikipedia:Peer review/Tali'Zorah/archive1

Tali'Zorah
This peer review discussion has been closed. Peer review by request czar   &middot;   &middot;  09:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Czar

 * Gave article a basic copy edit and made simple changes myself where I felt appropriate
 * I didn't verify refs (unless otherwise compelled/interested) so as to stay on track
 * Lede should be like the concise WP article on the subject, but everything in it should be linked or explained in detail below to verify the information (i.e., concepts like the Admiralty Board and its definition should appear in the article below)
 * Lede: "thrown out" as in suggested for inclusion, or discarded? I went with "discarded"
 * Lede: "much discussion" re: her face—by whom?
 * (Tali speaks! source capitalizes Quarian)
 * "romance": to de-jargon this term, I explained what how the romance tree works. Remember that any term that would be foreign to a ME outsider should be elaborated on first mention
 * Side note: thank you for using list-defined refs. it really makes a difference when copy editing
 * Concept/creation: Why did Tali "initially serve as the only example of a quarian"? What was the function?
 * Second paragraph: Why do the first few sentences lack refs? Are they sourced by ref 7? If so, consider adding them to the sentences for completeness. (You may not need it now, but if someone edits in-between them, no one will know what sources what.)
 * "The appearance also helped stand out against the other quarians introduced in the second game." was vague, improved as I could, but revisit this sentence
 * Pull quote is actually from CVG (Xbox World 360 mag), consider switching source for easier verif tracing
 * "There was debate as to whether to reveal her face or not in Mass Effect 3." Where? By whom? Publically? Internally?
 * Penultimate paragraph could use citations at the end of each line
 * Avoid the phrase "at one point" (been used three times so far)
 * Characterization can be expanded with more physical description, backstory, and personality (as a reader, I'm most interested personally in the latter) Maybe extract from her in-game dialogue and the comic dedicated to her?
 * Appearances: "attempt to get back their homeworld" The Quarians, or someone else? (vague, rephrase)
 * Section needs citations
 * "merely an advisor" To whom? Shepard? The Council? The Quarians?
 * Reception: Did any reviews mention Tali in specific?
 * This section can use some expanding, especially on how she has impacted the series or the series's perception, if she has had such an effect (ostensibly this is partly what makes her independently notable)
 * "Tali's unmasked face and its potential appearance has been subject to discussion." This is a repeat mention, but discussed by whom?
 * Other: UGO and IGN aren't linked as works in the refs
 * Other: I think the article would have trouble over breadth in GAN without more support in the character design, voice acting, critical reception categories
 * I'm surprised no reference of Judaism/Israel in-game references. I'd be surprised if no RS cover it, but I haven't looked.

Discussion
Job well done overall. I'm falling asleep right now, or else I'd say more. czar  &middot;   &middot;  09:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought the parts about the face controversy were especially interesting (didn't know it was from a stock photo). I'd like to see more academic treatment of the subject, but there isn't that much to work with: small section on Tali's appearance and her role in subverting heteronormativity, and mention of Quarians as the "gypsies of space", which are both so-so sources. Very good. Let me know if you'd like any follow-up. czar   &middot;   &middot;  04:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)


 * "Why do the first few sentences lack refs? Are they sourced by ref 7?" Exactamundo, and a fair point. I'll change that now. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 00:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm... how would you feel about moving the "Characterization" section to before the "Concept..." section? Describe her characteristics before saying how they came to be created, and all that. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 21:26, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's a good idea! The article lends towards it right now and it's always nice to have a firm grasp on the subject at hand (the traits of the actual character) before diving into its history. czar   &middot;   &middot;  00:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've moved it up ahead. I also renamed it "Characteristics" since I feel that fits what the section is about better. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 20:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I've expanded a bit on the voicing of Tali. I could probably add more, but that should do for now. It'd help if I could find further interviews with Liz, but alas. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 22:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * How would you feel about including this image (under concept)? Illustrates some of the designs considered for Tali. Unfortunately, I am not entirely certain on the origin of those images. A similar group of pictures exists in the universe art book, which I scanned, which contains more pictures with a clear source, but at an admittedly lesser quality. At lower sizes (as it would appear in the article), it probably wouldn't be too bad, though it's not ideal. Of course, I'd do a rescan due to the blur on one of the pictures. All that said, I'm also a bit hesistant because I've already used three fair-use pictures and don't really want to overdo it. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 23:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * WP's really strict about non-free image use. It's usually pushing the limits to even include two. Best off replacing the second image (Appearance section) with a visual comparison between all three costumes (possibly including the concept art), or removing altogether if the visualization isn't vital. It's only worth including the non-free images if they are vital to understanding what's described in the text. Even the photo at the end—it's useful, but it should be described in the text more. Back to the original q, I'm not trusting of creativeuncut.com but they appear to be using a larger version of your scan (though that would need to be downsized for NFCC), so it would be fine but only if the text really necessitated visualizing what was described. (Similarly, these face concept pieces are interesting but aren't exactly needed.) Is your scan from the Art of the Mass Effect Universe book? I didn't see it in there. czar   &middot;   &middot;  17:56, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * (Scan's from Tali's page in the Mass Effect 2 section.) On the photo: do you think it'd be worth swapping it for a two-in-one picture comparing her face and the original stock photo? That was my original plan with the image, though I'm not exactly sure where the photo falls in copyright. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 23:00, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the screencap of the in-game picture frame alone is more fitting, since it shows the face as the gamers experienced it. A comparison between the concept faces and the final face also isn't necessary from the way it's described in the text. I'd suggest the following: better in-game image of the picture frame (ideally head-on instead of oblique angle), and either adding a comparison between her costumes in the trilogy (where the changes were discussed in-article or in the sources, such as how she looked "more mature" after completing her Pilgrimage) OR adding a sample of her voice to show the "vague" ethnic accent. Definitely keep the non-free files under a count of three, though. czar   &middot;   &middot;  23:11, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as getting an in-game shot of her face: the scene in question basically holds it at an angle throughout, and its probably too small to get a good shot-at outside of the cutscene. Searching the internet quickly, there's this image, though it's in black-and-white. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 23:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Shepard can't view the frame any other way? I wonder what the resolution would be like from a high-res in-game screenshot. Anyway, not worth the extra attention unless you're curious—other stuff is more pertinent czar   &middot;   &middot;  02:30, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Which do you think we be more useful? A clip of her voice, or an image about her designs? – Bellum  (talk) (contribs) 02:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Good find on the additional Sroka cites. czar   &middot;   &middot;  23:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 02:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've added a "Promotion and merchandise" section. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 02:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You use "praising her" twice in your new paragraph czar   &middot;   &middot;  01:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Should be sorted now. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 21:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)