Wikipedia:Peer review/Terry-Thomas/archive1

Terry-Thomas
This peer review discussion has been closed. Cad, bounder, rotter and an absolute shower! Terry-Thomas was one of the most popular and best-known comedians of post-war Britain. A broad and rich career on stage, television and radio, he exported his portrayal of the silly-ass Englishman from British films such as Private's Progress, Carlton-Browne of the F.O. and I'm All Right Jack to Hollywood, where he depicted an upper-class English twit in a number of films, including It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World and How to Murder Your Wife. From the height of fame and considerable fortune he was struck down with "perfidious Parkinson's" which ended his career early and drove him into poverty, where he survived on charitable hand-outs. A sad end for an iconic screen character. SchroCat (talk) 23:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC) &  Cassianto Talk   23:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Crisco 1492

 * especially cads, toffs and bounders - Bounders?
 * Yep, now linked. - SchroCat (talk) 08:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * a gap of a third of an inch between his two front teeth. - can this link be shortened?
 * Yes, done. --  Cassianto Talk   07:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * He appeared increasingly on various BBC radio shows, and then made a successful transition into British films of the 1950s, where he had his most creative period, appearing in the films of the Boulting brothers, including Private's Progress, I'm All Right Jack and Carlton-Browne of the F.O.; and Frank Launder and Sidney Gilliat's The Green Man and Blue Murder at St Trinian's.  - needs to be split, very long
 * Broken up. --  Cassianto Talk   13:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * From the mid-1960s he appeared increasingly in European films, often in smaller parts, but occasionally in more substantial roles, such as Sir Reginald in the successful French film La Grande Vadrouille. - a few too many clauses
 * I've cut the sentence back to simplify. - SchroCat (talk) 15:18, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * his career to an early conclusion - early? He had been in the business for almost fifty years at the point.
 * Fixed. --  Cassianto Talk   07:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * straightened circumstances, - Britishism, possibly euphemistic
 * Now more straightforward- SchroCat (talk) 12:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * —albeit wrongly— - Do the sources say this? How did they get the info?
 * Not "albeit wrongly" so deleted. --  Cassianto Talk   13:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * his parents' marriage had begun to fail and both became alcoholics. - mixing tenses
 * Done. --  Cassianto Talk   07:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * His parents eventually divorced by the time Terry-Thomas had become a teenager in the 1920s. - I suggest removing either "become a teenager" (note that you use "adolescence" above, which can be read as a synonym for teenager)
 * Trimmed. -- Cassianto Talk   15:45, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * shillings-a-week - check hyphen usage
 * tweaked to "15-shillings a week", which I think is right under WP:HYPHEN. - SchroCat (talk) 09:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * characters including Colonel Featherstonehaugh-Bumleigh and Cora Chessington-Crabbe - TT seems to have had a fixation for hyphens (comment only)
 * his debut with the drama company with the role of Lord Trench in - any way to avoid with-with?
 * Swapped the second "with" for"in". -- Cassianto Talk   07:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * staged latterly - what's this mean?
 * Tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 08:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * In his spare time, he began playing with a local jazz band called the Rhythm Maniacs, for whom he played the ukulele. Together with his role in the band, - any way to avoid repeating "band"?
 * Yep: now tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 11:57, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * the sister of Jessie Matthews. - name?
 * Sadly not given, in either of the two books where this is mentioned. - SchroCat (talk) 09:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * mews flat - worth a redlink?
 * Linked to Mews -- Cassianto Talk   07:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Dame Ellen Terry - Should this be Dame Ellen Terry?
 * Done-- Cassianto Talk   07:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * During this time, they were hired by Don Rico, a band leader, who incorporated them into his orchestra, with Patlanski playing the piano, and Terry-Thomas acting as the compere. - commas everywhere
 * Now trimmed down - SchroCat (talk) 15:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks for all your comments here (and for any others you may have later!) All very much appreciated as always! - SchroCat (talk) 15:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Radiology section is really short and should be merged.
 * I have moved it to a caption in the final image. -- Cassianto Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Any way to provide a selected filmography in this article, rather than force readers to look elsewhere?
 * The problem I find with these lists is that it's just our POV on what should and should not be in there, unless there are sharply defined criteria that can be used. In the case of Peter Sellers, we used a list of those articles he was nominated for an award (and drive-by editors still try and add their favourite films in there); for John Le Mesurier we left no list at all, on the basis it's not possible to outline which individual works are most important. I think that with T-T we would only be putting in our favourite films, leaving it open to bloating later on. - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I've used full lists at Sjumandjaja and Lilik Sudjio (the latter admittedly nowhere near GA/FA quality), so that's one approach. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is that he appeared in 95 films alone, let alone his rather revolutionary television work, as well as all his radio appearances, and including these would bloat the page to unmanageable proportions. - SchroCat (talk) 09:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Concur with SchroCat. I am not a huge fan of lists in non-list articles for the reasons outlined above and because of its repetition of information already given within the prose.  What might be one persons favourite T-T film, is not necessarily going to be to the taste of everybody else.  For example, I adore Kill or Cure and would be disappointed if it were to be omitted from a selected works list.  Others would disagree with its inclusion as it might not be their favourite T-T film. —   Cassianto Talk   10:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * (WWII) British forces - worth linking to British Armed Forces?
 * Done. --  Cassianto Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * From early in their marriage, Patlanski had started having affairs, a move which prompted him to do the same; - Him -> Terry-Thomas
 * Changed. --  Cassianto Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * During the tour, Terry-Thomas ensured - You used "ensured" last sentence as well
 * Tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Sir Seymour Hicks and Dame Lilian Braithwaite - Isn't it usually "Sir Seymour Hicks and Dame Lilian Braithwaite"?
 * Linked. --  Cassianto Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Eugene Piri playing light classical music and the Gainsborough Girls - either worth a redlink?
 * I think so: both done. - SchroCat (talk) 19:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps link compassionate leave to Sick leave or another related article, for American readers?
 * Linked to Leave of absence. --  Cassianto Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * compassionate leave in order to have free time while still receiving army pay. During his leave period - Leave - leave
 * Swapped the latter with "absence". --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * compared the show, as well as appearing in some of the sketches, including his own "Technical Hitch" routine. - compared or compered?
 * Good spot, changed. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * shaggy dog stories - might be worth linking
 * Linked. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Piccadilly Hayride ran until 17 January 1948, - might go best with the discussion of the 778 performances
 * Merged. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   15:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * the film was the first in which Norman Wisdom made an appearance. - relevance not quite clear
 * Your right, deleted. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   15:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * and the couple lived separate lives which went unreported by the press until 1957. - their lives were unreported, or their separation?
 * Both. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   16:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The Los Angeles Times retrospectively considered I'm All Right Jack and Carlton-Browne of the F.O. to have been his best works. - Whose?
 * T-T. Fixed. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   16:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * a gang of mink thieves - Mink (animal) thieves, or mink coat thieves? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pipe removed from link. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   16:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * he sought solace with Belinda Cunningham, - sounds like editorialising
 * I have changed to "confided in". Does this sound better? --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   16:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Again in Burke's Law - Your first mention was in a footnote, so many readers are likely to have missed it
 * Good spot: now added. - SchroCat (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Check for instances of duplicate links (the tool picks up a couple) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tool: cleared out all offending duplicates. - SchroCat (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * That's it for today, I'm down to European cinema: 1966–70 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * One of those fat cheques - Not quite encyclopedic, although I get where you're coming from
 * Shame! Now tweaked to "bigger fees", which still refers back to a reference in the previous line. - SchroCat (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Princess Grace of Monaco
 * Is there something you want done with this link? - SchroCat (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That was me having a thought, realizing that my thought was wrong, and forgetting to remove it here (I had questioned the use of Princess Grace when Grace Kelley was far more recognisable, then realised that was her legal name at the time) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * continually searching for affairs while travelling on business, - For affairs could be read non-sexually (although I doubt most people would)
 * Tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * a "cheap, crude, sexed-up rehash" - of?
 * Added relevant info - SchroCat (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * which she had given to him in her will on her death in June that year. - any other indication that the two were not too adversarial / rather amicable after divorce?
 * Yes: I've added a little to the "European cinema" section, regarding Pat's home in nearby Majorca. - SchroCat (talk) 10:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You write "the couple" in the second paragraph of Final years, but for the past four paragraphs it's just been T-T (even in cases where I'd expect both to be working together)
 * I've worked references to his wife into the previous one, which should make the jump a little less jarring: let me know if this is OK, or if you think it could be changed further. - SchroCat (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * A little heavy on the quotes as you go.
 * I'll finish the rest tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * memorable screen moments - POV
 * peacockery duly removed!


 * underplay much of his reaction. - reaction or reactions?
 * Yep, good spot: I've tweaked to "underplay many of his reactions"


 * Otherwise that's it from me. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Crisco for all your help with the PR, and your sterling work on the images too: your efforts have really made a huge difference. - SchroCat (talk) 07:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An excellent review as always Crisco! Thank you so much for taking the time to help us which has certainly made all the difference to the article. I would be more than happy to return any favours the next time you are after a reviewer.—  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, you already gave me a review earlier. I've got something else coming up though. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Great! Count me in --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   10:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't mention it (you're the one who ended up ordering so many pictures! Amazing) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Tim Riley
- a preliminary couple, prior to proper read-through:
 * "Add to these pictoral advantages" - in a quote so I didn't like to amend. I doubt the source has so misspelled, but pray check.
 * My notes have "pictoral": I'll need to check this next Friday when I'm next up at the BL, as it's a michrofiche job. - SchroCat (talk) 19:28, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "as Bertrand, the posteuring..." – this is in a quote too, and ditto, but I don't buy it.
 * Quite right: it's "posturing" - SchroCat (talk) 19:28, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Two other typos (not in quotes) amended. I was rather reluctant to change the Zampa Overturn. More comments shortly. Tim riley (talk) 16:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Interestingly the source has "Zampa Overturn", which I admit I must have copied somewhat drone-like! - SchroCat (talk) 19:28, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment on texts to end of Early post-war work: 1946–55 More soonest, but it's a gorgeous day and a post-lunch stroll seems an even more pleasing prospect than editing Wikipedia. – Tim riley (talk) 12:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Early life: 1911–33
 * "North London" – not certain about this, but I think Finchley was not technically in London in 1911.
 * the birth cert says Middlesex, so I've left London out altogether - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Upon his return home" – I have probably banged on before about the superiority of "on" to "upon".
 * Yes: done - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "15-shillings" – not sure about the hyphen
 * De-hyphenated. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "he took on some minor roles in a few Gilbert and Sullivan operettas which were produced by the Edgware Operatic Society, and staged at the Scala Theatre" – this goes on a bit; how about "he played a few minor roles in Gilbert and Sullivan productions by the Edgware Operatic Society at the Scala Theatre"?
 * Re-worked using your suggested text - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "with the sister of Jessie Matthews" – I think there were several sisters, so perhaps "with a sister of Jessie Matthews"?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Early performances: 1933–39
 * "mews flat overlooking Lord's Cricket Ground" – I should be interested to know how a mews flat could have overlooked Lord's, with its damn' great walls. A friend of mine had a 5th-floor flat supposedly overlooking the ground, and you couldn't see much even from that height.
 * I've removed the "mews" element from the equation - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Marylebone registry office" – some (not me) get very aerated about this, insisting that it should be "register" not "registry"
 * Register it is then - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Dame Lilian Braithwaite" – not yet a Dame at that time
 * Now "de-damed" - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Eugene Piri" – Are you sure about this? I suspect it may in fact have been Eugene Pini, brother of the fine cellist Anthony Pini whose article I put together recently.
 * Quite right: it's Pini. - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "playing light classical music and the Gainsborough Girls" – I think a comma before the "and" would help the reader
 * Now added - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "so he left ENSA" – "so" is not a conjunction
 * Re-worked - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "freshly written sketch" – a hyphen wanted, I think
 * A hyphen now given - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "with stand-up comedian" – missing "the"
 * No longer! - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Early post-war work: 1946–55
 * "on the BBC Light Programme and Home Service" – does it help to have the two stations identified? Perhaps just "BBC radio"?
 * Done as you suggested - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "a recurrence of his peptic ulcer" – is a peptic ulcer the same as a duodenal one? I don't know the answer and I raise the matter just to check.
 * Duodenal ulcers are, as far as I am aware and can find out, a sub-set of peptic ones - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "along with his wife Pat" – we already know her name
 * Removed - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "lived separate lives, both of which went unreported..." – ambiguous. I suggest "lived separate lives; both facts went unreported..."
 * Your words now used - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for this: your suggestions mostly taken up so far - I'll have a look over the others shortly, unless Cass beat's me to it. - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, much obliged Tim! SchroCat was quick off the mark with these, so I plan on being even quicker in round two. ...which of course I wasn't :) —  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Batch two: to the end of "European cinema: 1966–70" Next batch a.s.a.p. I am enjoying this, though I can see the narrative is going to turn tragic from here – so very sad! I shall cheer myself up by watching SchroCat and Cassianto colliding in their haste to get to my pearls of wisdom first. Ahem! – Tim riley (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * British film years: 1956–61
 * "stealing the show from the central character" – Namely Windrush played by Ian Carmichael. I think your readers may be glad of his name in brackets after the quote. Incidentally, if you ever have a fancy to upgrade the great and good Carmichael's article, please count me in. I have modelled myself on his Bertie Wooster ever since I watched his BBC series with Dennis Price while I was a schoolboy in the 1960s.
 * Done. He is on the (rather long) list to be done at some point, so we'll certainly come calling! - SchroCat (talk) 23:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "in scenes that Graham McCann considered seemed 'to highlight what was special about the other'" – this gets itself lost rather. I suggest something like "in scenes in which Graham McCann considered each actor 'highlight[ed] what was special about the other'" My wording's not ideal, but you see what I mean.
 * I've tweaked yours ever so slightly and I'll have a re-read in the morning, unless someone tweaks my tweak! - SchroCat (talk) 23:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Court case – the narrative is rather long at more than 120 words. I'd be inclined to trim. He was nicked. He pleaded knackered. He got off. (Possibly a touch more formal in wording, but you get my drift.)
 * Stremlined. —  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "series of institutional satires" – quotes not needed, I think. I confess I'm similarly addicted to such excessive use of quotation marks in my own stuff; I rely on Brianboulton to call me to order and I'm doing the same service for you whether you like it or not.
 * Fixed. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:53, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "He turned his back on television and radio shows of his own too" – not quite formal enough for an encyclopaedia article, perhaps? I might be inclined to say, "He also turned his back on television and radio shows of his own."
 * I went for "Turned down work on television and radio shows of his own..." No I didn't, I went with "He stopped appearing on television and radio shows of his own too..." --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:53, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it's the "too" that I found a bit informal. Perfectly good English, but not quite the formal tone for an encylopaedia article.
 * Now no too - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "with film historian Geoff Mayer" – more tabloidese unless you add the achingly-missed definite article.
 * Article added. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Breaking into Hollywood: 1961–65
 * "teaming up again with Lionel Jeffries" – it seems odd to have "again" followed by a first-time blue link to Jeffries.
 * Removed "again", but I couldn't see an initial mention of Jeffries anywhere. —  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   23:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Golden Globe Award for Best Actor" – Motion Picture Musical or Comedy" – that's a lot of blue link hitting the eyeball at one go; could you pipe it a bit perhaps?
 * Now tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 23:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "on BBC tv" – I dimly remember that ludicrous use of ulc by the BBC, but I see no reason why you have to lumber yourself with it. "BBC television" would do very well, meseems.
 * Thanks goodness for that! Now done - SchroCat (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "a character who film historian" – "whom" or just omit the word; and there's another tabloidese omission of the definite article
 * My fault - now corrected - SchroCat (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "magical" – I think you can lose the quotation marks without fear of being accused of plagiarism
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "at the behest of director" – another Sun formation.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * European cinema: 1966–70
 * "so for the latter half" – another "so" masquerading as a conjunction. What a tedious pedant you must (correctly) think me!
 * Now corrected - SchroCat (talk) 23:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "with the 1967 Gene Kelly-directed film" – tortuous. Perhaps "Gene Kelly's 1967 film"?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Kelly's directorship" – feels not quite the right word. Only a tentative suggestion on this point, but would "direction" be better?
 * Sorry - done this one too. - SchroCat (talk) 10:11, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Last lot
 * Dealing with Parkinson's: 1971–83
 * "The lucrative voice-over role …  was one notable role". Repetitive.
 * tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "his posture was contorted with disfigurement" – Tautological.
 * Last couple of words removed - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "he spent the majority of his time with medical consultants" – that can't be literally true, surely?
 * I do hope not! Re-worded - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "a few engagements of work" – do you need the last two words?
 * No: removed - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "forced to pull out due to his deteriorating health" – "due" is an adjective and shouldn't be used as a preposition; "owing to" or "because of" is what you want here. (I believe the usage you have adopted is permitted in American prose, though.)
 * "Because of" now used - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Final years and death: 1983–90
 * "she had given to him in her will" – strictly true, but it reads strangely. Perhaps "left" rather than "given" would be more idiomatic?
 * Definitely - "left" it is - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "London's Theatre Royal" – there are two. Was it Drury Lane or the Haymarket?
 * DL - SchroCat (talk) 12:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "fellow actor Lionel Jeffries" – you have already told us that Jeffries was a fellow actor.
 * removed - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "gentlemen on the cinema" – a typo? Should "on" be "of"?
 * I'm sure he probably did appear on one at some point, but "of" is correct here - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "cad-dishness" – why the unexpected hyphen?
 * It was added by Microsoft word: now returned to the Independent's original - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Legacy and reputation
 * "when voice actor" – definite article wanted
 * Added - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "The imitation started in the 1960s … golf-club-bore jokes". This sentence conveys that Owen was responsible not only for the tone of voice but for the script, which I doubt he was.
 * Re-worked - SchroCat (talk) 12:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

That's my lot. A fine article, and a pleasure to read (though sad, too). Let me know when you take it to FA, please. – Tim riley (talk) 11:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Quote boxes – purely a personal view, but to my ageing eyes the background colour is a bit strong for the text to be easily read. The present colour is as in the top box here; I suggest HTML shade #E0E6F8, as in the lower one. But of course ignore this if you disagree.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Footnotes
 * Note j: I'm taking us into the far extremes of pedantry here, but your sources for the two Desert Island Discs choices are not all that accurate. See the BBC's DID website. Not that that is faultless. T-T's first choice was George Enescu's "Ciocarlia" (sic) played by Grigoraş Dinicu and his orchestra. The fifth is tricky: your source says Irving and the Philharmonia but the Beeb says Karajan and the Vienna Philharmonic. Both recordings exist, but I am inclined to believe Ross rather than the BBC, where I suspect an unvigilant cut-and-paste job. The guitar piece is Enrique Granados's "Andaluza" from Danzas españolas. More on the second programme below.
 * Many thanks - I think I've caught them all - SchroCat (talk) 12:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note s: spelling "monacle", rather than "monocle"?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 12:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note v: I reckon your source is more reliable here than the BBC site, but for "Honeysuckle Rose" Django Reinhardt was joined by Stéphane Grappelli. The Segovia piece was the same as at Note j. Otherwise I'd stick with what you already have.
 * Added SG and tweaked Segovia
 * Citations
 * Ref 100 – not sure how this fits in with Verifiability. How can we check this?
 * Without wishing to point towards a copyright infringement, it's available for viewing on YouTube (in four parts), which is where I got the material. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It should be OK: the fact the source exists and that someone can access it means that it should pass muster... - SchroCat (talk) 07:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah! I'll shut up immediately. But you may find yourself in choppy waters at FAC. Fingers crossed, though. Tim riley (talk) 14:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Bibliography
 * As the title of Pirie's book is printed in all caps both on cover and title page, I think you are justified in following your practice elsewhere in the bibliography and giving "gothic cinema" initial capitals.
 * Now in caps - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wonderful Tim, thank you very much for the excellent comments. We will surely let you know when we pitch up at FAC.  --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Same from me: many thanks indeed Tim for all your time and effort here: it is much appreciated. All the best - SchroCat (talk) 12:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton
As usual with long articles, I will have to tackle this in parts. Here is the first:


 * Lead


 * In the first paragraph: I am unsure of the two words "accompanied" and "augmented" in this context. Was it really his "voice" that was "accompanied by a monocle, waistcoat and cigarette holder"? And did the gap in his teeth "augment" his dress sense? I am trying to think of acceptable alternatives.
 * I've had a stab at altering, although "set off" somehow doesn't seem right: please feel free to change it around if you come up with a better form - SchroCat (talk) 08:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Second para: it wasn't just his "uncredited film debut", it was his actual film debut. I would tweak the wording: "...Terry-Thomas made his film debut, uncredited, in the..."
 * Changed. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   06:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "He spent several years in similar roles..." Similar in what sense? You haven't indicated the nature of his uncredited first role.
 * Swapped for "smaller roles". --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   06:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "He started his career as an extra in the British film industry..." Isn't this saying the same thing as "...made his uncredited film debut in the 1933 film..."?
 * Changed, although I'm not sure for the better. SchroCat could you check this? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   06:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What was the date (or year) of How Do You View
 * Year given. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   06:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The sentence about his most creative period reads a bit clumsily at present; might be better just to list the films, and not insert the directors' names.
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   06:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Third para: first mention should be by name, not pronoun
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   06:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Early life


 * "His parents had divorced by the 1920s" - too vague; "by the 1920s" could include any date between 1920 and 1929. Presusumably the year is known?
 * Not in either autobiography or his biography - SchroCat (talk) 08:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Did he really use Owen Nares as his speech model when he was 10 years old?
 * Yes, according to his autobiography (and repeated in the main biography of him) - SchroCat (talk) 08:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Surely the words "as a boy" are redundant in a section entitled "Early Life"?
 * Deleted. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   07:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am becoming confused about certain aspects of TT's background. His father, we are told, was a Smithfield butcher, which sounds a relatively humble job. Yet at the age of 13, TT attends a fee-paying public school. At the age of 16 he is seduced by the family's housekeeper. This does not sound like the lifestyle for the family of your typical Smithfield butcher. I imagine the answer is that father was the head of a prosperous butcher's business, but this needs a few words of explanation.
 * Yes - the DNB has a little more explanation than any of the other sources on this: now added - SchroCat (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "In his spare time, he began playing with a local jazz band called the Rhythm Maniacs, for whom he played the ukulele." Suggest drop the comma and simplify to "In his spare time he began playing the ukulele with a local jazz band called the Rhythm Maniacs."
 * Thanks that looks better. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   07:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you sure about "mediums"? Has this passed the Riley test of acceptability?
 * I have swapped to "other aspects of entertainment", does this read better? --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   07:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Early performances


 * Is there a point in mentioning "overlooking Lord's cricket ground" - other than to make readers wonder how film extras could afford to live there (I bet not many can now)?
 * Probably none! Now removed - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * They've all moved north to the suburb of Swiss Cottage. [Anonymous contributor from Islington]


 * Maybe the permanent damage to his hearing deserves more than a passing mention?
 * It's mentioned again in the Second World War section, but the sources only briefly mention this point, so there's not much more info available on the point - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You say: "During this time they were hired by the bandleader Don Rico, who incorporated them into his orchestra, with Patlanski playing the piano and Terry-Thomas acting as the compere"; then a line later on: "At the end of the summer of 1938 Patlanski obtained a job as a pianist with the dance leader Don Rico, and Terry-Thomas became the compere." Some duplication here.
 * I've merged the two sentences together - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Second World War


 * I very much doubt that the "Gainsborough Girls" are worth a redlink - unless you have plans?
 * de-linked - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Again "he" at start of new paragraph
 * T-T added


 * "founded" closely followed by "founded"
 * No longer! One is now established - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "which composed of..." Either drop the "which", or make it "which was composed of"
 * "was" now added - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I am sure that "compassionate leave" wasn't given just to allow serving soldiers "free time" on full pay. What reason did he cook up?
 * Sadly he doesn't relate the reason. It must have been a good one as he appears to have been given a few months off - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

More on the way. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Brian: I know your Wiki time is limited and we very much appreciate you stopping by - SchroCat (talk) 08:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

More from me
 * Early post-war work


 * Caption: I'm not sure about the description "ex-mews house". In London property terms a mews house is a mews house, regardless of the time since its associations with coaches and horses.
 * No longer ex - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "The series reached four million viewers" – as did just about every TV broadcast in those far off, one-channel, three-hours-a-day transmissions to the sections of the country that could actually receive the signals! (just an observation)
 * "pictoral" in the quotation needs a (sic) – no such word exists in any of my dictionaries. I suppose he meant "pictorial"
 * I'm checking the source at the BL next week, so I'll check the spelling and either change the spelling or add the (sic) - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "Terry-Thomas continued performing on radio, in shows such as Variety Bandbox, Variety Fanfare and Workers' Playtime..." – no need to repeat the names of the shows, which have been mentioned earlier in the section
 * Now removed - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * There's something clumsy about "as well as on stage in cabaret". I suggest delete "on stage". A slimmed-down sentence would then read: "In between filming How Do You View?, Terry-Thomas continued performing on radio as well as in cabaret, in Britain and increasingly the US."
 * OK: your wording now used - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Should the link be to the Billy Cotton Band Show rather than to the individual?
 * Band also now linked - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Misplaced semicolon after "Woolwich". And it should be "the" Finsbury Park Empire
 * Now tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "an increase in the level of arguing" does not read like mature prose. "An increase in domestic tension" perhaps?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "both facts"? I see only one substantive fact – their separation.
 * Tweaked and re-worded - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * British film years: 1956–61


 * "a strict, alcohol- and prescription drug-dependent Army officer..." This seems a somewhat subjective description. Does it have a basis in a source?
 * It does: now added - SchroCat (talk) 16:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It would be logical to reverse the sequence of the final two sentences in the first paragraph.
 * Agree: now done - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "While filming took place during the daytime, he also appeared at the London Palladium in the evenings..." Doesn't quite make sense, though I know what you intend. Thus: "Filming took place during the daytime; in the evenings he appeared at the London Palladium..."
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * According to Briers's WP article, he was TT's first cousin once removed, but if their respective fathers were first cousins, then your version is correct. Possibly worth verifying (or perhaps too marginal to bother about?)
 * They are second cousins: I've added a further supporting reference - SchroCat (talk) 16:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * There is a redundant "as well" in the last paragraph. And I'd prefer "his own television and radio shows" to "television and radio shows of his own"
 * Your suggestion adopted - SchroCat (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * We have "spent time" and "time spent" in successive sentences, which clunks a bit. I'd chhange the first to "Having accumulated considerable experience by appearing in British films...:''"
 * Now done - SchroCat (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Breaking into Hollywood


 * "He had also split from his mistress..." – "He had by then split from his mistress..."?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "One of those appearing in the film was Spencer Tracy, who Terry-Thomas found difficult to treat normally, calling him "an extra-special man;" A bit too longwinded. Perhaps: "One of the American stars was Spencer Tracy, whom Terry-Thomas considered "an extra-special man"
 * Yes, much better - SchroCat (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "sidekick" not hyphenated
 * Removed - SchroCat (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Another (final) batch of comments tomorrow, if possible. Brianboulton (talk) 15:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Last tranche
 * European cinema: 1966–70


 * I am not sure how "a passion for travel" could be satisfied by "working with European film-makers", unless the films in question had exotic locations; if this was the case, then perhaps say so.
 * tweaked and trimmed - SchroCat (talk) 21:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Isn't note "r", which seems to summarise TT's European film career, a little prematurely placed? You've not begun to discuss his European films yet.
 * Moved - SchroCat (talk) 21:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "he played Sir Reginald, a stranded Royal Air Force pilot travelling through occupied France with Bourvil and Louis de Funès." I assume you mean with characters played by these actors?
 * Yes: now tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "Terry-Thomas undertook a number of roles with the Italian cinema industry, four of which were in one film: the 1967 farce Arabella. He used "the help of wigs, moustaches and lashings of Max Factor" to play his parts,[182] which were all with Virna Lisi, who he had worked alongside during How to Murder Your Wife." Multiple confusion: does "to play his parts" refer to his four roles in Arabella, or to all his Italian film roles? Were all his Italian film roles "with Virna Lisi"? – I've looked at her filmography, and can see no sign of TT's name except for Arabella. Why is "Virna Lisi" not linked or introduced, e.g. "the Italian actress Virna Lisi"? And "who he had worked alongside" should read "with whom he had worked".
 * Re-worked the Italian connection and clarified along the lines of your suggestions. - SchroCat (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you "discuss" a villa?
 * Tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes: now done - SchroCat (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Re Princess Grace - I think you should mention that she was playing herself in this film
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   21:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the description "camp classic" should be attributed.
 * Dealing with Parkinson's: 1971–83


 * File:Red Skelton Terry-Thomas Red Skelton Show 1968.JPG and (later) File:Terry-Thomas in The Red Skelton Show, 1967.jpg are both out of sync with the text. I'd say you don't need both of these; you have 2 1968 images and 1 1967 image, as well as several others from the 1960s. It isn't necessary to include images just because they are available.
 * Cuffed a tear from my eye and removed one! - SchroCat (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Whose description is "cornball terror"?
 * Now added - SchroCat (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Link vermouth
 * Now linked. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Almost all your readers will need to use the link to find out what hypokinesia means. I suggest you add abrief descriptive phrase.
 * Piped link. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * By "with funding given" do you mean that TT financed these films? This needs to be clearer. Brianboulton (talk) 19:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Final years and death: 1983–90


 * "financial resources" rather than "finances"?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "refused to leave the script" - do you mean "refused to release the script"?
 * Yes, done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You have "went on to say" closely followed by "going on to say". These are rather clunky expressions, and I would advise you look for an alternaive.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The last paragraph of this section probably belongs to the "Legacy and reputation" section.
 * Moved - SchroCat (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Screen persona and technique


 * "Although there were exceptions, Terry-Thomas's screen characters were similar". Needs a bit of qualification, e.g. "were generally similar"
 * Now qualified - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Is it necessary to link "stunts"?
 * No: now delinked - SchroCat (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "For films such as A Matter of WHO and Bachelor Flat he would do most of his own stuntwork, and later said "I like to do my own stunts". I am sure this can be expressed without the awkward repetition. Also, get rid of the inappropriate subjunctive: "he did", not "he would do".
 * Re-worked to remove one of the stunts - SchroCat (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Legacy and reputation


 * I thought that "Dick Dastardly" was based on Richard Nixon (just a side comment)
 * "The programme was also the first to use regular BBC announcers as foils in comic sketches" Slightly reword to make it clear that "the programme" is How Do You View - the previous sentence was primarily about Up Pompeii!.
 * Reworked - SchroCat (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Final comment: I have not been able to give the text the close attention I would have liked, and there may be a few issues brought up at FAC - nothing oppose-worthy, I'm sure, but be prepared. It may be worth doing a final ce run. As usual, this is a very comprehensive theatrical biography which I think depicts the man very well. Well done. Brianboulton (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Brian: your thoughts and comments are much appreciated and we'll both take a further careful reading before going along to FAC. Thanks again - SchroCat (talk) 21:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Closing PR
Many thanks to all who took part: your time, efforts and comments are all much appreciated - SchroCat (talk) 10:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Same goes for me. A sterling review by all who took part.  Many thanks! --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   15:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)