Wikipedia:Peer review/The Firebird/archive1

The Firebird


This article about the iconic Stravinsky ballet was promoted to GA in March, completely rewritten in July upon an inquiry from User:Wretchskull, and now this PR- I hope to take it to FAC once Appalachian Spring is finished. Excited for everyone's feedback! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Corachow
As with the Appalachian Spring PR I'm only commenting on the dance side of things, and let someone more qualified to comment on the music side of things.
 * The first three subsection has very little on dancing. For background, I think you should have more on Diaghilev and Fokine. I'm attaching a list of potential sources below.
 * I'm happy with the information of subsequent production of the Fokine version, though there are three significant ballet companies you should mention: the Royal Ballet (known as Sadler's Wells Ballet when they debuted it), Bolshoi Ballet, Mariinsky Ballet (formerly Kirov).
 * A lot of major choreographers made their own versions of the ballet, some with the original as the model and others radically different, and should be at least mentioned. The first four potential sources below should get you started, and you can research further from there. The Rite of Spring is a good reference point on what to do here. You don't have to mention every single choreographer mentioned below, but in my personal opinion the most important one is Maurice Béjart.
 * Consider one subsection solely on subsequent production on the Fokine version and another (maybe even an entirely different section?) on different choreographies.
 * Consider expanding on the Balanchine-Robbins version.

Potential resources: I think Diaghilev's Ballets Russes by Lynn Garafola, already used as a source, can also provide additional information on the dancing. Corachow (talk) 19:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * International Encyclopedia of Dance
 * The Oxford Dictionary of Dance
 * The Ballet Lover's Companion by Zoe Anderson
 * Balanchine's Complete Stories of the Great Ballets by George Balanchine and Francis Mason (in addition to the Balanchine version, also has detailed commentaries on the Fokine and Maurice Béjart versions)
 * Apollo's Angel by Jennifer Homans (only a couple of pages relevant to Firebird but a good starting point)
 * Stravinsky's Ballets by Charles M. Joseph
 * Diaghilev by Sjeng Scheijen
 * Michel Fokine and His Ballets by Cyril William Beaumont
 * Dancing Women by Sally Banes
 * Dancing Swans and Firebirds: "Russianness" Exhibited by Claudia Jeschke and Nicole Haitzinger


 * One source I missed: a New York Times article that touches a bit of the Fokine, Balanchine-Robbins and Alexei Ratmansky versions. Corachow (talk) 09:31, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks! I'll get to it soon, seems like I have a bit of work to do ;) MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:00, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Corachow, I have finished my additions. I've expanded the "Subsequent productions" section, added lots of info about Fokine, and expanded upon the choreo under a new section titled "Production". Thank you so much for the sources- they were all very helpful in developing these new sections, and I added a few others. Some, including Diaghilev's Ballets Russes by Lynn Garafola, can no longer be accessed on Internet Archive (possibly due to the lawsuit), and I can't find it anywhere else- wish I could use them, but I sadly can't. Thank you again- and, as a side note, I would pay quite a bit of money to see that sci-fi Neumeier productions, it sounds absolutely fascinating! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:44, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I am quite busy with my offline life at the moment but I'll try to take a look in within the next week. I wasn't aware of the lawsuit but at least I now know why a couple of sources I used quite often can no longer be accessed on Internet Archive. Corachow (talk) 01:30, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

That's all from me. Overall I'm very happy with the additions. Corachow (talk) 20:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Background
 * Link Michel Fokine in the second paragraph.
 * Link Mariinsky Ballet in the third paragraph.
 * Perhaps name a few successful Fokine ballets he had made prior to Firebird such as Les Sylphides (some sources may refer to it as Chopiniana) and The Dying Swan.
 * Creation & Production
 * Maybe renaming "production" to "development", and "creation" to "conception" will be more suitable? Because right now the two headings sound like they are about the same thing.
 * Though I understand some sources are no longer accessible, I do wish there are more on Fokine's choreography and process, given the much lengthier section on the music.
 * Specifically on production
 * "Tamara Karsavina, who played the titular Firebird" – the word "played" isn't use much in ballet. "Who created the role" or "who originated the role" is more suitable and point out that she's the first person to portray this role.
 * I don't think you need to point out the Firebird is en pointe. In classical ballet it is the norm for women to dance en pointe.
 * Subsequent productions
 * I think it's a good idea to divide it into two subsections – one on Fokine's production and others that are closely modelled after his, and another on versions with different choreography, so you can cover a few more versions
 * Sadler's Wells production: be very careful with the wording here. According to the Royal Opera House database the choreography is still Fokine's. Grigoriev and Tchernicheva's credit was "staging", which meant they taught Fokine's choreography to the company. Their role in the production is more like répétiteurs than choreographers.
 * Specifically mention numerous other choreographers made their own version of Firebird.
 * Divide Balanchine-Robbins to a separate paragraph — it has completely different choreography to Fokine.
 * Perhaps specify New York City Ballet was founded in 1948?
 * "establishing Tallchief as one of the first American-born and trained ballerina." – I find the phrasing odd. There are numerous American-born and trained ballerinas before Tallchief but she's the first to receive that level of fame and recognition.
 * Recording
 * I'm pretty sure are several more filmed performances of the ballet beyond the Sadler's Wells but the section implies there's only one.


 * Thank you so much for the review, this is all very helpful! I'll get to these comments soon and let you know when I take it to FAC! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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STANDARD NOTE: I have added this PR to the Template:FAC peer review sidebar to get quicker and more responses. When this PR is closed, please remove it from the list. Also, consider adding the sidebar to your userpage to help others discover pre-FAC PRs, and please review other articles in that template. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 02:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Schminnte
Hello Chonk, I saw this review was open by chance and thought I might contribute. Putting down a placeholder here, will add a laundry list soon :) Schminnte &#91; 21:06, 18 October 2023 (UTC) Comments are arranged in section order:


 * ...catapulting Stravinsky to international fame, and leading... – nitpicky I know, but I feel this sentence has better flow without the comma here.
 * Any reason to not link Firebird (Slavic folklore) in the infobox? I see you have supplied links for every other relevant page.
 * I don't see where it would be linked, since the character isn't stated in the box. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I was thinking in a similar way to how you link Zhar-ptitsa? – S
 * Actually, I think the link on Zhar-ptista should be removed- thanks for pointing that out MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 17:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Firebird (Slavic folklore) is linked three times in the lede, duplicate occurrences should be removed.
 * Another comma taste question: ...Koschei's palace, Ivan tries to follow, but is stopped by Koschei at the gates... – is the second comma needed?


 * Ballets Russes is linked twice in §Background
 * Ditto with Michel Fokine
 * A fellow Rimsky-Korsakov pupil, Jāzeps Vītols, wrote that "Stravinsky, it seems, has forgotten the concept of pleasure in sound... [His] dissonances unfortunately quickly become wearying, because there are no ideas hidden behind them." – I think this is quoted identically twice, once each in §Premieres and reception and §Subsequent productions?
 * Goodness, can't believe I missed that- thanks for catching it. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Glissando is linked twice pretty closely

Not much to say here, great job as usual. I particularly like the use of images in this one. Feel free to ping me at a FAC if needed, good luck with the WikiCup! Schminnte &#91; 22:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I see Anthony Pople is cited here, small world!
 * Not sure I understand- what's the small world moment here? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * An old DYK from five months ago, how time flies – S
 * Wow, small encyclopedia! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 17:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I found a couple of sources that might provide some small details for analysis,, . I admittedly like quite a technical description of a piece but I recognise the need to keep it understandable, so feel free to not use these.
 * I think I looked at the former but didn't find too much particularly useful info- the latter is much too complex for even I to understand, but if I'm getting the gist of it, the idea of "leit harmony" is discussed under "General character". Thanks for finding these, though! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Understandable, not quite light reading. If you can glean anything from it then it may be useful for the part discussing the varieties of scales in the piece? – S
 * , this was a pleasant surprise! Many thanks for the review- just a few replies above, I implemented everything else not replied to. I'll let you know when it's at FAC! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Replied again, thanks for the speedy responses. Schminnte &#91; 00:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that's all sorted now, good luck with the FAC. Schminnte &#91; 17:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)