Wikipedia:Peer review/The Motels/archive1

The Motels
There doesn't seem to be many band pages that have even been stamped as "good." I'd love some feedback on how to improve this article to at least get a good rating. Thanks. Fyunck(click) 09:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

User:IvoShandor

 * The Albums and singles sections would do well to heed WP:EMBED. This way the article can eventually lend itself to WP:SUMMARY.
 * The lead section should represent a concise, stand alone summary of the whole article conforming to the guidelines at WP:LEAD.
 * Citations are important and this article has no inline citations. They should be provided for anything extraordinary, or statements of fact that are likely to be challenged. Add a notes section. See WP:CITE and the templates at WP:CITET (even if you don't use the templates - I don't - they can give you an idea of what info to include in both your inline cites and your Sources or References section.
 * I would denote that Los Angeles is L.A. in parenthesis on its first reference in the intro: Los Angeles (L.A.) for any foreign reader who may not be familiar with the abbreviation, if that is possible. : )

More in depth
 * "First incarnation"
 * ✅1971 in Berkeley, California, we find the first roots of The Motels. Lisa Brenneis (bass) coxed Dean Chamberlain (lead guitar), Chuck Wada (rhythm guitar) and Martha Davis (vocals, guitar) into forming a band (then called The Warfield Foxes).
 * The tone of that sentence is all wrong.
 * I have reworded this. IvoShandor 08:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅Also at this time two new members fill vital slots; Richard D'Andrea on bass and Robert Numan on drums.
 * This is written in present tense. Make sure the article's tenses agree with themselves, this should all be past tense as the band no longer exists.


 * I understand the past/present tense should be consistant but it's a problem since the Motels still tour to this day. New members of course but the band has changed members many many times.


 * I have reworded this. IvoShandor 08:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redundancies, watch for them: ✅had signed --> Just signed.
 * I have corrected the example I provided, still be on the lookout for this type of thing. IvoShandor 08:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The Motels and two other local bands, "The Pop" and "The Dogs", kicked off the local band scene
 * The second "local" is redundant.
 * ✅with a hallmark concert
 * Not even sure what this means but it sounds like someone's opinion. Even if you have a source make sure to obey WP:NPOV in the use of it. This is also an example of something that would require citation and explantion.
 * I just removed the word "hallmark," problem solved.IvoShandor 08:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅Chamberlain was soon heard again in his band Code Blue and signed to Warner Brothers Records.
 * Awkward.
 * I have reworded this. IvoShandor 08:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * See WikiProject Music/MUSTARD for style and writing guidelines for music article, such as how to write out band names. The current italicization plus quotation marks is incorrect I believe. I am not an expert on music stuff around here though. Seek input at the project on this.
 * I think band names are italicized based on the above link, I am changing them as I see them.
 * I have added some fact tags where I thought inline citations might be helpful.


 * "Second incarnation . . ."
 * Try to keep your section headings as succinct as possible, most successful seems like overkill.
 * In March 1978, Davis was approached by lead guitarist Jeff Jourard (formerly of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers) to form a new Motels.
 * This sentence is odd, he isn't a lead guitarist unless he is in a band, perhaps just describe him as the former lead guitarist for _______. Also the end of the sentence, ''to form a new Motels." To reform The Motels?
 * Playing in Chinatown at Madame Wong's restaurant/nightclub so many times they were nearly the house band, they began to draw a faithful crowd around the L.A. music scene.
 * Another example of a sentence that doesn't obey NPOV, or needs citation.
 * Make sure the entire article gets a good copy edit or two by unaffiliated eyes. I like to use the non-emergency request section at League of Copyeditors for any article I am unsure about before I nominate for Good article.
 * By Mother's Day 1979
 * I would just give the exact date and link it/them per WP:DATE.
 * Example: ✅finished recorded
 * Don't forget about that copy edit. : )
 * Still needs going over. I just made a first pass of the first two sections. I corrected the above example. IvoShandor 08:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The rest of the members forged on and finished recorded the new album. Using studio musicians to fill in for the vacant guitar spot, the band was able to finish the album by March 1982.
 * Look for places like this where sentence structure can be improved. ---> The rest of the members forged on and finished recording the new album by March 1982, using studio musicians to fill the vacant guitar spot.
 * ✅had made enough airplay
 * See below. IvoShandor 08:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * had enough airplay (keep looking for this kind of thing)
 * ✅had made enough airplay to land the #33 on the Billboard Rock Album Cuts chart
 * Awkward.
 * I tweaked this. IvoShandor 08:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Their first single from the album, "Only the Lonely," found its way into the Top 10 in the U.S. by June.
 * Only the Lonely comes out of nowhere here.
 * Their first successful U.S. album coincided with the emergence of MTV, which led to music videos for both "Only the Lonely" and "Take the L." Davis won a "Best Performance in a Music Video" award in 1982 for her performance in the "Only the Lonely" video. In October 1982 the band added a sixth member, keyboardist/guitarist Scott Thurston.
 * If these two events are going to be connected there must be an inline citation.
 * The Motels returned in 1983 with the album Little Robbers.
 * Returned from what/where?
 * Garay by now not only was producing their albums, but their videos as well; and, he became the band's manager.
 * This is an example of a poorly constructed sentence. Try losing the now and using a date, nows in general make it sound like the present tense, I saw a couple other spots like this, look for this. Maybe ---> By _____ Val Garay was the band's manager while he produced albums and videos for The Motels --Or something like that, it may be a poor example.
 * made its way to the Top 10 in the U.S. The album went gold in the U.S.
 * ✅I would spell out United States in this instance so that it's obvious there is a sentence break.
 * I changed this. IvoShandor 08:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge and/or delete one sentence or really short paragraphs.

Make sure this is all in past tense, may require extensive editing.

That is all I have for now, I will be along with additional comments on the final two, shorter, sections and where, after I reflect upon it, the article may need expansion to meet the GA criteria, which you should read if you haven't. The Motels rock btw. IvoShandor 08:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I am giving this a copy edit. And marking things above and commenting for you. Just so you know, make sure someone else does this as well, gives it a copy edit I mean.IvoShandor 08:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Other comments

 * The first single, "Shame," became a Top 30 hit on the pop charts and a Top 20 on the dance charts.
 * Needs clarification, which country? IvoShandor 08:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know if the pound sign # is appropriate before numbers, perhaps it should be spelled out, perhaps the numbers should be below ten, consult the Music Project or WP:MOS, not sure which section. IvoShandor 09:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have completed adding fact tags and finished with my first pass copy edit. IvoShandor 09:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You should refer to people by their first and last name on first reference and then by their last name after that, I like to refer to them by their entire name again if it has been awhile since the first reference. IvoShandor 09:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Also note song lyrics and gig lists are completely unnecessary for an encyclopedia article. IvoShandor 09:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Last two sections
I went ahead and made some changes, they are noted below.
 * "Martha Davis section"
 * and it set the stage for her creativity and longing to get back in the game.
 * Removed.
 * Davis released her first solo album entitled Policy in November, and had a hit with "Don't Tell Me the Time" (#8 in Australia), but in the U.S. the song only went as far as #80.
 * Reworded for NPOV and better structure.
 * General copy edits and reworded another sentence.

In addition there were some changes I couldn't make, they are noted below.
 * In November, and had a hit with "Don't Tell Me the Time"
 * What year was this?


 * "Featuring section"
 * Just changed everything myself here, should look okay.

IvoShandor 09:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Expansion needed
Here I will list areas that either need expanded or created as I identify them. This is, in part to satisfy GA broadness criteria (3a), which requires that all major aspects of a topic be touched upon. The other reason is to make The Motels article rock as much as they do. IvoShandor 09:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Music: Virtually nothing on what type of music they played, their sound, their style, etc.
 * Influences: Who does this band cite as its influences.
 * Formation: Now we know when they formed, how did they form?
 * Videos: You talk a lot about their videos and awards for them, why were they important or influential in the early days of music videos, why were they chosen for the award, this should be discussed somewhere if possible.
 * Breakup: Do we know why the band dissolved? How do the original members all relate to each other today? Any hostility or was it an amicable split?

Pertinent discussion from user talk page
I have posted a peer review for The Motels. IvoShandor 08:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Really no problem, as for the sourcing, if they would truly say it to anyone it shouldn't be too hard to find elsewhere. Since the new incarnation of The Motels is different I would say it would be appropriate to use past tense for the old Motels and present for The Motels featuring Martha Davis. As for the shows, no kidding? I live near Chicago. Thanks for the info. If you have any comments about my peer review feel free to address them on the peer review page and I will comment there. I kind of figured you didn't write the bulk of the article but I like to address the peer review nominee directly sometimes in my reviews. : ) Hope it helps, I may have some other comments as the page develops. IvoShandor 05:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I fixed your first ref, I had to revert but I changed the date from 73 back to 75. You can see the formatting I used for the reference when you edit the page. Always try to include, author (if available), title with link if available, see how I did it on the page, publisher, date published (if abvailable) and the date of retrieval, all full dates in citations should be linked per WP:DATE. I didn't add your second citation back in, but removed the fact tag, still needs a cite though, because it looked like a fansite, see WP:RS. IvoShandor 06:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah... I saved the ref tags and realized they were in error. As I was fixing the backslashes you had already done it and we had a conflict wiki edit. I'll add some references at a time you aren't fixing all my problems :-) By the way, a fan site it is... my own, but it is semi-official. Martha Davis wants me to keep it up to date and most of the former band members periodically send me info to include. I know many personally and they were the ones who originally told me of the wiki site and it's inaccuracies and asked if I could "fix" the errors. So first it was get the info correct, then get peer review to get the writing upgraded with some good advice. Then dig into my source articles to properly cite this thing and hope that not too much sourcing was gotten over a glass of wine with Marty or Martha backstage. I will only use my fansite as a last resort but things like a comlete gig list, song lyrics and some band member interviews are found nowhere else.


 * This could lead to problems, see WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:COI. IvoShandor 06:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh and I am done over there for now. : ) IvoShandor 06:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not worried about COI because I'll just keep presenting the article to peer groups for refinement. But the other two items...well... I guess I'll just keep my site out of the article completely to avoid any potential problems. Thanks.


 * I appreciate it, It isn't that I am against your site, its just that these policies and guidelines are the result of months and years of hard work and aren't in place for arbitrary reasons. I thank you for seeing that. If it isn't a problem I am going to copy this dicussion to the peer review page under its own section so it will be archived later accordingly. IvoShandor 09:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 03:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC)