Wikipedia:Peer review/The Rite of Spring/archive1

The Rite of Spring
This peer review discussion has been closed. This began as a joint project with User:Tim riley. Tim, sadly, has withdrawn from Wikipedia, but before he went he supplied me with some very useful source material. So I have carried on with the article and it is, I think, ready now to be peer reviewed. There are some issues around images to be resolved (see article talk) and a bit more polishing. I would welcome comments  on all aspects of the article; the centenary of the notorious premiere falls on 29 May 2013 and this would be a great TFA for that day. Brianboulton (talk) 15:55, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments by Gerda Arendt


 * Regretting with you that Tim does not want to be active at the moment, I would like to point out a detail that strikes me and is not yet mentioned in the beginning: the strange translation of the title. In German it would not be translated at all but left the original Le sacre du printemps which doesn't mean a civil "Rite of Spring" but a brutal "Sacrifice of/in Spring". I would be interested in the history of that "translation" and a hint in the lead, also think the subtitle should be mentioned there early. - I will be back when I get to read more of the article, - busy with Kafka ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * On this point, there is a limit to what can be included at the beginning of an article. Already the first sentence, with the name of the work given in three languages, is tending to the cumbersome; to add further explanation or discussion of the nuances of meaning within the title would make the beginning unreadable. There is, however, a clear description in the "Conception" section of the stages by which the title evolved. The English language version of title was adopted pretty early on, since Stravinsky evidently used it in an interview the day after the premiere (it may be worth footnoting this). The English may not exactly reflect the strict meaning of the French, but in my view it is close enough, and is indubitably the name by which the work is universally known in the English-speaking world. I have yet to meet anyone who, having seen/heard the work, has said that they felt misled by the title. Brianboulton (talk) 20:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Taken. I still wonder about a reader who comes to the article completely unprepared. - Reading: why is it "Le sacre du printemps" in the lead, but "Le Sacre du Printemps" in "Conception"? I could imagine more details about the music, that section is short compared with Performances. - I remember the exciting Pina Bausch production, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * thanks for acting, but I don't believe what it says now, "original French title Le Sacre du Printemps". In original French it's Le sacre du printemps, French doesn't support capitalisation in titles ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but the programme for the evening of 29 May shows "Le Sacre du Printemps" thus. Strictly speaking the lower case format is correct in the French Language, but discussions of the piece in English texts almost always employ the capitals (though Kelly is an exception). There are arguments both ways, and I propose to leave the matter as it is. Brianboulton (talk) 08:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Do we know what the program for the premiere said? If it had no caps I would at least drop the description "original" and just say "French". I confess that it is still kind of strange to me to read that "The Rite" was premiered in Paris, but I won't torture you more on the topic ;) Great article! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have said how the programme rendered the title - with caps. I have removed the word "original"; now let us agree to rest the matter. The premiere was in Paris because the Ballet Russes performed experimental and avant-garde works that would not have been acceptable in the stifling culture of Tsarist Russia; Diaghilev and his cohorts were revolutionaries in absentia. Brianboulton (talk) 16:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * A few commnets :
 * (2nd para of Realisation) Nijinsky certainly played instruments. He took piano lessons, played the balalaika, and according to Bronislava “could play any instrument” (see for example p122 in her ‘Early Memoirs’). There is a photo of him and Ravel playing Daphnis and Chloe as a duet (I can only find this on the internet http://andrewvanz.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/nijinsky-and-ravel.html). According to the Buckle the photo was ironically taken by Stravinsky!
 * Yes, I know that Stravinsky was being retrospectively unfair to Nijinsky. In an earler draft of the text I included Bronislava's defence, but dropped it as marginal detail. I will footnote it, however, as it is of some interest. Brianboulton (talk) 08:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (Yes, unfair indeed given that by then the poor man was not capable of answering back...)
 * (last paragraph of Realisation) Monteux and the Rite is a fascinating and complex history over 50 years... I do realise that you cannot develop it in an article like this (it could probably make a separate article), but I feel though it is a bit blunt, it’s more than a ‘conscientious professional’ who later told people ‘he detested it’
 * There were clearly lifelong issues between Stravinsky and Monteux, and each sometimes gave vent to their felings in excessive terms (cf "that frightful butcher"). This article is not the place to explore that relationship; the exact Kelly quote which I have paraphrased reads: "At the Eastman School in the 1950s he was asked about his first reaction to the piece: "I detested it"; and how does he like it now? "I still detest it". Brianboulton (talk) 08:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (last line of Realisation) Piltz was not ‘unknown’, she was a principal with the Ballets Russes. The two Buckle books give a sample of her roles prior to Rite of Spring. Perhaps mention that Rambert had observed Nijinsky coaching Piltz and thought that he should have been the best in the role.
 * The source actually says Pilz was "little known to the Parisian public". I have amended the text. Brianboulton (talk) 08:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (50th anniversary) Also on Monteux – quite a few sources (Morrison, Canarina etc) say that Stravinsky arrived at the start of the second half of the Rite, not at the end. He stayed in his box and the 88 year old had to climb up to where he was (according to Osian Ellis he ran up the stairs). Canarina notes that the composer had cooled down and changed his view by the end of the evening – and provides a quotes from Stravinsky “Monteux, almost alone among conductors, never cheapened Rite or looked for his own glory in it, and he continued to play it all his life with the greatest fidelity.” I think Stravinsky’s views on Monteux were as fickle as Monteux on the Rite of Spring. (Just for interest the broadcast can be found on a recording blog.) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been careful to say that the version I give is "according to Berlin". If you can give me full details of the Canaria source (pub details, page nos etc) I will modify the account accordingly. Brianboulton (talk) 08:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * p301 of Canarina (Canarina, John (2003). Pierre Monteux, Maître. Pompton Plains, New Jersey: Amadeus Press. ISBN 1-57467-082-4.); Morrison p137-8 has the Ellis anecdote, and other comments on the occasion (Morrison, Richard (2004). Orchestra. London: Faber and Faber. ISBN 0-571-21584-X.)
 * I have footnoted Bronislava's comments on her brother's instrumental skills. In the 50th anniversary section, I have added the quote from Canaria in the text, and a made truncated reference to Morrison/Ellis in another footnote (there is a limit to how far we should milk this one anecdote, revealing though it is) Brianboulton (talk) 21:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC).


 * Comments by Wehwalt
 * Lede:
 * I would divide the second sentence in the second paragraph at the semicolon.
 * "After a mixed reception" I would include the word "critical", given the riot.
 * "and the ballet eventually gained worldwide acceptances on the basis of innovative performances directed by the world's leading ballet masters." A bit awkward  Perhaps (for the whole sentence) "Massine's was the forerunner of many innovative productions directed by the world's leading ballet masters, which gained the work worldwide acceptance."
 * " original choreography, long believed lost, was recreated" If it was recreated, isn't it a new arrangement?  Perhaps "reconstructed"?
 * "analysts have discovered a considerable grounding in Russian folk music, a relationship that Stravinsky was later at pains to deny." This makes for a rather muddled chronology, given what is said in the body.  It makes it sound well after the fact, almost current.
 * Background
 * I would mention Igor's date of birth.
 * I am advised by Tim that, when a person has a blue link, it is not WP practice to include their dates.
 * "In 1901 Stravinsky" I would say Igor Stravinsky.
 * Not sure. There doesn't seem to be any doubt about whom we're talking
 * "St Petersburg". Is this how it is expressed in Britlish?  I tend to spell out the name of the Russian city to distinguish it from the seat of the Dark Lord in Florida.  Just bringing it up.
 * Yes, that's how we normally write it.
 * "a Piano Sonata in F-sharp minor (1903–04);" As there is no verb anywhere in the sentence after the semicolon, I question it.  I tentatively suggest also, a comma after the first 1908 in the sentence.
 * " In 1907 he began" Who?
 * I think the pronoun is OK here; the construction of the previous sentence, in my view, makes the identity clear. The alternative is a close and unnecessary repetiton of "Diaghilev"
 * Structure
 * You appear inconsistent on ending the rightmost entries in the table with a period or not.
 * "is caught twice" Slightly unclear.
 * Creation
 * "However, in his 1936 autobiography he describes " Past tense perhaps?
 * " the French translation" As it is not a translation, exactly, perhaps "the French rendering"?
 * "pagan prehistory" I blinked at this twice and am still none the wiser.
 * It is given thus in the source. I think the word "pagan" is used here in its pantheistic sense, or "nature-worshipping" as we might say. The prehistory is presumably concerned with how such forms of worship originated. But I haven't read Afanasyev's book, you will be surprised to learn.
 * Performance history
 * Perhaps set the stage, so to speak, by changing the first word to "Paris's"? Given the French influence in Czarist Russia, the Champs-Elysee does not make it completely obvious.  Later it does become clear, but all the same.
 * " their hatred of the boxes" I am guessing the boxes are where the wealthy sat, perhaps this should be the clarified.
 * Awkward to do, without an intrusive note. My guess is that readers will guess as you did.
 * " the dance step numbers to the oblivious dancers." The duplication of "dance" may be unavoidable, but I'd strike oblivious.  You'd mention it if they were affected, and it seems they weren't, at least so far.
 * I meant they couldn't hear his counting, but I'd kind of already said that, so "oblivious" is struck.
 * I notice that the full stops are invariably outside the quotes, yet some of these seem like complete sentences.
 * I'll have to check that out.
 * "Saint-Saëns was not present." Plainly, if he left :)  Perhaps "did not attend".
 * " rejected an account by Cocteau in which " Perhaps "rejected Cocteau's account that" or similar.
 * " the young ballet-master, he writes" In the lede, you used "ballet masters" without hyphen.
 * Later performances
 * " in front of the unaware, wildly cheering audience." Unaware of what?
 * Unaware of the tensions underlying this apparently warm encounter.
 * Ballet
 * "who had taken over the Wuppertal ballet company and renamed it "Tanztheater Wuppertal", " perhaps a tangent.
 * " New York's State Theater." I would simply use the former name (I was surprised that they have renamed it, "New York State Theatre"  If you are seeking to make it clear it is in the city, you can mention Lincoln Center.
 * Sorry, don't follow the comment. I understand that "New York State Theater" is the former name for the David H Koch Theater, hence the link. Your allusion to an English spelling eludes me.
 * It sounds odd, is what it really is. You expect to hear "New York State Theater" instead you have a slight variation on that.  That's really my point.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "the Joffrey Ballet in Los Angeles performed The Rite" You have been calling it the Rite.
 * Music
 * In the Influences section, the way you render lifespans is inconsistent. I would simply expand Copland's date of death to four digits.
 * I've removed the lifespans per the earlier note.
 * Editions
 * Is the autograph score extant? Where if so?
 * I assume it is, but none of the sources that I have mention where it now is. I might do a little digging. Brianboulton (talk) 22:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As one does, looking for something else I found on the internet this pdf, "Rigoroso (♪ = 126)": "The Rite of Spring" and the Forging of a Modernist Performing Style by Robert Fink, in the Journal of the American Musicological Society, Vol. 52, No. 2 (Summer, 1999), pp. 299-362.It says the autograph is in the Paul Sacher institute. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 13:42, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks kindly. As you will see (Editions section, footnote), my own researches, though in slightly different areas, have come to the same conclusion. Brianboulton (talk) 16:07, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That's all I have. Most interesting and worthy.  It should do well at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these comments. Where I disagree I have said so, but generally I have followed your recommendations. Brianboulton (talk) 22:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

"Conception"
 * Comments by Cassianto
 * Link to Princess Maria Tenisheva.
 * "...consist of games and ritual dances interrupted by a procession of sages" Stages?
 * No, "sages" as in "wise old men". Clarified now, by a link. Brianboulton (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

"Composition" "Realisation"
 * OK.
 * "The Princess Tenisheva's collection of costumes were an early source of inspiration"? For some reason "was" sounded strange, perhaps as it followed a plural.
 * It has to be "was". Brianboulton (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Diaghilev decided that Nijinsky's genius as a dancer would translate into ability as a ballet-master, and was not dissuaded when Nijinsky's first attempt in this role, Debussy's L'après-midi d'un faune, ended in controversy and near-scandal because of an overtly sexual gesture introduced by Nijinsky." -- Seems a bit long without a full stop.
 * "Diaghilev decided that Nijinsky's genius as a dancer would translate into an ability as a ballet-master..."?
 * Sentence slightly reworded, and divided by a semicolon Brianboulton (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

More on the way. --  Cassianto Talk   19:01, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I say more on the way, but I in fact lied. I have read through the remainder of the article with great pleasure and ease and see no further issues.  An eloquently brilliant article as always! --  Cassianto Talk   00:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll look forward to your remaining comments. Can I ask your opinion on another matter? At the foot of the articles are three templates: "Igor Stravinsky", "Ballet" and "Fantasia". The first two are unobjectionable, but the third, I think, has no place here. The connection with Disney's 1940 Fantasia is interesting but of only minor significance; the template in my view puffs it up into a matter of importance. I propose to remove it, but would welcome some other views on the matter before I do. Brianboulton (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Disney Fantasia has little meaning for the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I noticed that and thought it was strange. I would elect to remove it. I think it's inclusion here is a tenuous one. --   Cassianto Talk   08:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, while I am at it, here is another request. I would like reviewers to listen to the sound sample (12 seconds) of the opening bassoon melody (use the link in the music example, "Music" section). This soundfile survives from the article before I began the expansion; it has been created using Sibelius 5, a score writing program widely used by composers and arrangers. To me, the result is not good; the mechanical tone of the "bassoon" is aggravated by a strangeness in the tempo, which sounds jerky and artificial. In other words, I am not sure that this is a good illustration of Stravinsky's music. I kmow some people believe that any sound is better than none in a music article, but I don't agree, if the sample gives a wrong impression. I would be pleased to have reveiwers' thoughts on this, particularly from those who are easonably familiar with the music. Brianboulton (talk) 10:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not familiar enough with the music to have an informed opinion.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's not very good, very like a computer sound. It would be better to have a real bassoon playing (if possible). Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with that, it doesn't help the reader to understand the music. (Thanks for asking me.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)