Wikipedia:Peer review/The Rolling Stones/archive2

The Rolling Stones


I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to get feedback to improve it before I nominate it for FAC. This is most likely my next one in the pipeline.

Thanks, The SandDoctor  Talk 16:47, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's British band otherwise there would be Bavarian, Catalan or Silesian bands. Eurohunter (talk) 17:53, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not sure I understand your feedback here. "English" in this context, assuming you are referring to the lead of the article, would refer to "English" in the same context as English people; just like how Americans are from America and Canadians from Canada, the English are from England. "English" is how they are referred to in most articles about the band, including the FAs Paint It Black and Aftermath (Rolling Stones album). I looked it up on Babbel and "English" refers to people or things specifically from England, which is true of this band; this is also supported by the listed demonym in England being English. The SandDoctor  Talk 18:13, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I should also note that a Bavarian band does exist, as does a Catalan band (not saying they are stones related, just that they exist whereas the comment asserted that that was impossible). I don't see, though, how that has any bearing here. -- The SandDoctor Talk 19:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Bavaria is part of Germany, Catalonia is part of Spain, Silesia is part of Poland and England is part of the United Kingdom. Of course there are Bavarian bands from Bavaria and there is no problem but they are still German same as English bands from England are still British in this context and they can identify as English band or even Commonwealth of Nations band. You are Canadian so Ontarian or Québécois bands are Canadian. Eurohunter (talk) 19:57, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd go with English if possible. No-one thinkds of Simple Minds as a British band but rather a Scottish one. The cultural identities are really distinctive Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:56, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree fully with . I just added a reference to the first line for "English". The book The Rolling Stones All the Songs: The Story Behind Every Track states on page 6 that "...the Stones are an English band". That should hopefully settle this as we'd be going against reliable sources and historians to call them otherwise. The SandDoctor  Talk 23:17, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * They are English band locally or culturally, but above all they are British band internationally. If you look at political map there is no England, Bavaria or Silesia. This is the context I mean. Eurohunter (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Comments
 * There's overlap between authority control and external links
 * Authority control is what shows up in Wikidata, right? -- The SandDoctor Talk 06:24, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * No - it's drawn from Wikidata, but it's displayed within the article, in authority control. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Edited. Does it look better now? -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yep. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Citation formatting could use some cleanup for consistency. Samples only: some books include locations and others don't; Billboard is sometimes italicized and other times not; sometimes you have Allmusic and other times AllMusic
 * Some citations are missing information provided at the source - for example author in footnote 358, date in 404. Check throughout
 * I am about three quarters of the way through my first pass adding missing information. My next pass will be addressing consistency, but I have run out of time for tonight. -- The SandDoctor Talk 06:24, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * ":5" has a reference error
 * Resolved. -- The SandDoctor Talk 06:24, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't understand it but following this edit where I filled in some refs, I now get a sfn cite error for Cohen. It appears that because he wrote a book in 2016 and an article for WSJ, both of which are cited here, it is confused. I tried switching the sfn for Cohen to harvnb but in the preview window that didn't address it. Have you run into this before or am I missing something or? -- The SandDoctor Talk 19:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yep - because you're using short cites for books and not articles, all you'll need to do is throw a none onto the article reference. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:39, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed with Special:Diff/1096329708. Thank you! -- The SandDoctor Talk 20:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * IMDb is not a reliable source; Allmusic is not generally reliable for biographical claims. Generally speaking, make sure you'd be able to answer what makes this a high-quality reliable source for each reference
 * IMDb replaced. I think most instances of Allmusic are okay here, but will see about thinning them a bit (i.e. replacing). -- The SandDoctor Talk 20:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Source for discography?
 * Sourcing added. -- The SandDoctor Talk 21:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Avoid sandwiching text between images, and suggest adding alt text
 * How does the sandwiching look now? -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Better than it was, but still some issues - particularly in #Jones' departure and #Legacy. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What's the copyright status of the set design?
 * Which image are you referring to? File:ABiggerBangTwickenham4.JPG? File:The Rolling Stones stage props at Prudential Center 2012-12-13.jpg? -- The SandDoctor Talk 21:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Both, and also File:The_Rolling_Stones,_Prudential_Center_2012-12-13.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If they turn out not to be Creative Commons as the reviewing administrator reviewed them to be, then the rights would presumably fall to either the band or Stufish Entertainment Architects. Save for File:The Rolling Stones stage props at Prudential Center 2012-12-13.jpg, the band is on stage and arguably a wide shot of them. That said, I am not terribly familiar with structure rights; a view of justia appears to indicate that it could be a murky sort of area, but also that "building" photos post-1990 are acceptable if viewable from a public area/the person is permitted to be there? -- The SandDoctor Talk 02:44, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "Buildings" are defined within US freedom of panorama as "structures that are habitable by humans and intended to be both permanent and stationary" - sets will not generally qualify. With regards to the wide shot point, are you arguing the set is de minimis? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Copyright isn't my strongest suit and is something I prefer to defer to others on. Perhaps one of the two Prudential Center ones (and the Twickenham) should be removed and the other Prudential Center one transferred here with a FUR to most likely owners being the band and/or Stufish? I am open to suggestion on how to handle this. The SandDoctor  Talk 03:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That's a possibility. You might also be able to get away with claiming de minimis on Twickenham. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I have imported as File:The Rolling Stones stage props at Prudential Center 2012-12-13b.jpg and converted the article uses. Any other suggestions on how to proceed here? Does the FUR look okay to you? The SandDoctor  Talk 22:12, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The FUR itself is fine, but the accompanying tag I don't think is quite right. Is the work 2D or 3D? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The stage is 3D but it is a 2D image. What would you suggest? The SandDoctor  Talk 22:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Could always go for the generic non-free fair use. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you! The SandDoctor  Talk 00:33, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Rolling-stones-3426802_1280.jpg's licensing doesn't match that at source, and File:Rolling-Stones-1965-Finland.jpg is missing a US tag
 * Regarding the first image, it is properly licensed per the template as it was published pre-9 January 2019 and the fact that it says CC0 and CC1 appears to be a template issue. Regarding the second, what US tag do you think should be added? -- The SandDoctor Talk 06:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * When and where was it first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Which image are you referring to? The first is from pixabay and was uploaded May 24, 2018, therefore making it CC0. For the second image, I found a working link in the Finnish Heritage Agency Journalistic photo archive and it is actually CC-by-4; I've updated the template accordingly. -- The SandDoctor Talk 13:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:NFCC requires a separate specific fair-use rationale for each article in which a non-free work is used - the samples currently use combined FURs
 * Corrected. -- The SandDoctor Talk 21:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Be consistent in what variety of English is used - for example you have both "recognized" and "unrecognised"
 * The article would benefit from a going-through for MOS issues - for example long quotes should be blockquoted, ranges should consistently use endashes, and El Mocambo is linked twice within three paragraphs. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:26, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Aoba47
I hope this review is helpful. To be honest, I am probably not the best reviewer for this as my exposure and overall understanding of this band is incredibly (and I mean incredibly) limited. With that being said, I have immense respect for you for tackling such an iconic group as there is a lot of information to wade through and process. Best of luck with this peer review! Aoba47 (talk) 02:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I have a comment about comma usage. There is a comma here ( By 1963 they were) but a similar phrase uses a comma here (In 1964, they beat). I believe the second instance is the correct usage and ti seems to be the most used version in this article, but I would make sure it is consistent throughout.
 * I have looked through these instances and believe that that was the only instance and has now been corrected. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This link, raided a party at Keith Richards' home, is a redirect. I think it would be best to use the article title as the link instead.
 * Done. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * For this part, an excerpt from Shelley's poem Adonaïs, the poet's full name should be used.
 * Done. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Four citations are currently used for this sentence: The Rolling Stones ended the 1990s with the album Bridges to Babylon, released in 1997 to mixed reviews. It may be worthwhile to bundle these citations to avoid citation overkill. I would also recommend citation bundling for the four citations in the first paragraph of the "Musical development" section.
 * Done. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This is more of a note than a suggestion. I'd be mindful of the article's length in the future since they are still active. While it appears like a majority of their career is already behind them, the article will need to be kept up-to-date with any new tours, etc. and the entire length and size of the article should be kept in mind while doing so.
 * Most definitely. It might end up needing to be split in future. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "Honky Tonk Women" is linked twice in the article when it should only be linked on its first mention. I would look throughout the article to make sure there are not any other instances (particularly with song and album titles).
 * I think I've got all instances now... -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your assistance with this review; it was most helpful. I appreciate the kind words! This band article was one of my first GAs and I want to get it up to FAC after a few different attempts when I was a more novice editor. I'll let you know when it goes up for FAC (probably in a couple months, once GOCE is done and Jagger is minted FA). -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

David Fuchs
Sorry for the long wait. Kudos to trying to attempt such a large and daunting subject!


 * General thoughts :
 * Overall, I think the article is generally well-shaped. Given the length, however, I think a little more focus on making a narrative of the history would be useful—you often lose the arc of the Stones' career in digressions on chart performance and minor events. The prose could use more focus on the band itself, summarizing non-band stuff (like solo albums, etc.) rather than giving them as long lists.
 * This becomes a particular problem once we get to the recent (c. 2008 and on) era. For example, this paragraph:
 * On 25 March, the band played a bonus show, a free open-air concert in Havana, Cuba, which was attended by an estimated 500,000 concert-goers.[332] In June of that year, the Rolling Stones released Totally Stripped, an expanded and reconceived edition of Stripped, in multiple formats.[334][335] Their concert on 25 March 2016 in Cuba was commemorated in the film Havana Moon. It premiered on 23 September for one night only in more than a thousand theatres worldwide.[336][337] The film Olé Olé Olé: A Trip Across Latin America, a documentary of their 2016 Latin America tour,[338] was shown in cinemas on 12 December for one night only.[339] Olé Olé Olé: A Trip Across Latin America came out on DVD and Blu-ray 26 May 2017.[339][340] The Stones performed at the Desert Trip festival held in Indio, California, playing two nights, 7 and 14 October, the same nights as Bob Dylan.[341]
 * We start with a topic (Latin America tour), then give a specific performance (Cuba, attended by 500K people, okay, seems relatively big and worth mentioning.) Then, we skip to June, where we mention a totally different album, then jump back to the Latin American tour, and then spend a lot of time talking about the film and documentary of the tour, with no clear indication of why the release date of the documentary is relevant to the Stones (there's an article on the tour, seems like it belongs there) and then we end with a mention of a completely different concert at the end.
 * Prose :
 * Lead :
 * They returned to their roots with such hits Returned to what roots? I assume this is blues and early rock and roll, but it should be clarified.
 * Clarified based on Rolling Stone source already present. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That year they were first introduced on stage as 'The Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World'. This feels a little peacocky for me, and not as useful as more tangible explanations of their success.
 * That is an honorific that they were branded with and continue to use. It would be seemingly relevant to mention, but it is covered in the body. Perhaps that is enough? -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * For the purposes of the lead, I would collapse the Billboard and Rolling Stone mentions as "Billboard and Rolling Stone have ranked the band one of the greatest of all time." or similar.
 * Done. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * History :
 * At the time, the band consisted of Jones, Jagger, Richards, Stewart, and Taylor. Redundant with previous lineup in previous section. It would make more sense to restate the lineup when you e "classic line-up" a few lines after.
 * The band's name was changed shortly after their first gig to "The Rolling Stones" Should come earlier since we've skipped from their early gigs to increasing popularity at this point.
 * Hmm...would this be better as a footnote you figure? -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * He claimed this triggered an "international renaissance for the blues".[31]—okay? Seems kind of irrelevant to the Stones overall, and it seems weird to privilege his opinion on this, especially since he's quickly replaced.
 * Removed. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the sections on Decca Records and Oldham's interpretation of the band should be adjusted. It seems like a lot of the latter paragraph should be condensed with Oldham's intent on making them a contrast to the Beatles and "bad boys", and that way you are not switching from image to recording back to image.
 * The Stones followed the Famous Flames, featuring James Brown,—I dunno what "followed" means in this context, especially since they say they weren't actually following.
 * There is a misunderstanding here based on the prose that I will try and work out. Brown was part of it and they did technically perform after. What Mick was talking about was that it could be changed in editing potentially. -- The SandDoctor Talk 22:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Re-reading it, that actually seems clear to me as-is. Hmm. The SandDoctor  Talk 22:27, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * On 25 October the band appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show. Because of the pandemonium surrounding the Stones, Sullivan banned them from his show. Since this is undercut immediately afterwards with the fact he did rebook them relatively soon, I would just say "initially declined to rebook them" or something similar (if a ban lasts less than two years, it's not much of a ban? How often were bands repeating on the show?)
 * It was called a ban by sources, but rephrased as suggested. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * During the Stones' early releases, Richards was typically credited as "Richard".[77][78][79] Doesn't seem that important.
 * Removed. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think since you start out mentioning the covers, it should be clarified how much original material is on their second album. Seems weird it's brought up earlier and then dropped, but the later albums mention it again. I think it might also flow better if you use that transition to their own material as the through line for the summary, rather than focusing so much on the albums and charting�—it gives it more of a storyline.
 * That is a very good idea. The complicating factor, though, is that they have two concurrent discographies, especially for the early days. Which were you referring to? Their second release in the UK was five by five but was 12 X 5 in the US. My big book of Stones songs (All The Songs) only covers the UK discography, but what I can say is that Nanker Phelge was credited with two of five songs on that UK LP. If you are referring to No. 2, they wrote three of the tracks. Out of Our Heads spawned "Satisfaction" and saw them write 6 (including "Satisfaction"). -- The SandDoctor Talk 06:01, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A week later on 12 February, Sussex police, tipped off by the paper, which had been tipped off by his chauffeur This is too much information to stack, and it's also not clear whose chauffeur it is, either.
 * Moved and expanded the chauffeur bit in a footnote. It reads more clearly now. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * On the treatment of the man responsible for the raid, he later added: "As I heard it, he never walked the same again." soooo... did they assault the chauffeur? Kind of weird thing to include and leave hanging and unclear.
 * Yes, someone did, though it doesn't specify who. Anyhow, removed this bit as it is covered in a footnote now. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The band parted ways with Oldham during the sessions. What was Oldham actually doing for the band at this point? You've already said he was replaced as manager.
 * The article states that Between the Buttons was to later prove to be his last time as producer. There is no continuity error stating that he formally left during the Their Satanic Majesties Request sessions? It is not clear what he was doing at that time. A story] in the Chicago Tribune (and one in the Times-Tribune) I just found appears to back up that the current phrasing is correct: that he left during (or after) the Majesties sessions. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Controversy over the design of the album cover—feel like we need more info on the actual controversy?
 * Added more. How does that look now? -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:24, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The Stones' Decca catalogue is currently owned by Klein's ABKCO label.[164][165] doesn't seem to relate to the rest of the paragraph's content.
 * Moved to where it chronologically fits. Perhaps it would be better as a footnote? -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As of 2018 Wyman has released four solo albums, with the most recent, Back to Basics, released in 2015.[179] Doesn't seem worth mentioning.
 * Removed. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * their largest audience to date, and finished their set at 7am ditto.
 * That means you don't think it is worth mentioning that set? 200k people is a lot of people. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * In December 1985, Stewart died of a heart attack. You haven't mentioned him in a while and the last Stewart referenced was a different person, so you should probably restate.
 * Added his first name in. Does that resolve? -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Once again, a live album was culled from the tour, culled seems like the wrong word here? And if the albums didn't chart all that high, doesn't seem worth mentioning.
 * Changed to "recorded during". Not mentioning it would make the mention of the tour rather abrupt. I think it should probably stay as the tour should? -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * 2017 section starts with a mention of a recording that hasn't come out, jumps to talking about the 2020 covid epidemic, then jumps back to 2017 to discuss touring.
 * Hmm. It contextualizes what was said. How would you propose addressing? -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Musical development :
 * "Keith and Brian turned me on to Jimmy Reed and people like that. I learned that Earl Phillips was playing on those records like a jazz drummer, playing swing, with a straight four." unclear who said this, and how it relates to the previous sentence.
 * Clarified. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Prior to the emergence of Jagger/Richards as the Stones' songwriters, the band members occasionally were given collective credit under the pseudonym Nanker Phelge. Repetitious with the mention in "history"; one mention or the other should get cut.
 * The problem is that it is required in the history section as it is mentioned repeatedly but also kind of required in the musical development section as it sets up the following sentence stating how some songs have been re-credited. How would you suggest addressing? -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The paragraph about Jagger and Richards' feuds seems like it's in the wrong place (previous paragraph is about musical style, following is about collaboration) and repeats previous material in history.
 * Where do you believe it would fit best? -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Legacy and tours :
 * Seems like the mention of over 48 tours and their grosses belongs in the tours section, not legacy. The tours section also repeats the Altamont Free Concert bit, without clarifying any further as to why it was important. It also feels again like an irrelevant factoid in the shape of the section.
 * Moved and cut, respectively. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Why do you excerpt quotes about the ban being ants and Jagger having to project himself, and then still repeat the entire quote in full right after?
 * Duplication removed. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Media :
 * I think File:Mick Taylor2.jpg and File:Keith-Richards and guitar.jpg are questionably licensed. The Flickr page certainly asserts they are works of original authorship, but they look a lot like low-resolution screencaps.
 * I know there are others who disagree, but I don't buy that you can have non-free vectors of copyrighted work like File:The Rolling Stones' logo.svg and they meet NFCC, particularly the "low resolution" requirement (since they are high-fidelity, can be scaled to whatever size someone wants, and thus are very useful for commercial purposes.)
 * File:The Rolling Stones - Brown Sugar.ogg and File:The Rolling Stones - Gimme Shelter.ogg I think need better fair use rationales and more detail in the text to justify them; where they are placed in the article, there's not really any text asserting why they are so crucial to hear.
 * Similarly I don't think there's a compelling rationale for File:The Rolling Stones stage props at Prudential Center 2012-12-13b.jpg—we've got the logo already, there's other similar shots of the stage, and I don't think it's tough to replace with text description.

-- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:38, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * References :
 * Forthcoming.


 * Hello . I appreciate the review that you have done so far. Are you planning to continue as you had alluded to? The SandDoctor  Talk 06:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks for reminding me. Things have fallen by the wayside, this is one :) I've got a trip forthcoming that should give me time to revisit this. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 17:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Prodding again. If you aren't able that's fine and I will close this off and probably go to FAC shortly. The SandDoctor  Talk 05:49, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Drive-by comment from Ovinus
Might add some more comments if I have time. Anyway, "the band released a limited edition..." is cited to a source published before the release date of 17 April. It also may be a close paraphrase. (Found at CCI) Ovinus (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The fact that it predates it doesn't seem like an issue to me given it included its release date (and there also doesn't appear to be a better source out there readily available in a Google search). As for the flag, it is picking up on the "limited edition" bit, that it is a 7" single of previously unreleased material (Plundered My Soul) and that it was released to honor "Record Store Day". I've put probably the largest flags in quotations there; it seems rather unavoidable without being weaselly or weird. It is a paraphrase save for unavoidable terms (track name, release calendar date, etc.) The SandDoctor  Talk 21:52, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough on both points, thx. Just wanted to alert in case there was a problem. Ovinus (talk) 23:04, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Query from Z1720
It has been over a month since the last comment, and this has been open since July. Are you ready to close this and nominate it to FAC, or are you still looking for comments? Z1720 (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * as this has been open since July, are you ready to close this and go to FAC, or are you waiting for more comments? Z1720 (talk) 02:01, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I've closed this as it wasn't exactly fruitful in later stages and has died out. The SandDoctor  Talk 22:43, 28 December 2022 (UTC)