Wikipedia:Peer review/The Wiggles/archive2

===The Wiggles=== This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because the last time it was nominated for featured-article status, it was suggested that a peer review be done on it. I'd like to see this article improved and successfully brought up to FA. As this article's main editor/contributor, I've followed every suggestion made in its two previous candidacies.
 * Previous peer review

Thanks, --Figureskatingfan (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC))


 * Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Peer review/The Wiggles/archive2.

Ruhrfisch comments: I was going to weigh in on the FAC and it closed before I could, so I will make some comments in the next day or two. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 17:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The article is generally well written, sourced and illustrated, and I learned a lot about the Wiggles reading it. However, I always think that any article that has had a FAC should treat that as a very detailed peer review and go through all of the FAC comments very carefully and correct / respond to them (and treat them as general comments and look for all examples of whatever is cited, not just fix the one example cited). Here are some more suggestions for improvement:


 * R, thanks. I'm sure this is a general comment, but I think that if you look at the previous FACs and peer reviews for this article, you'd see that this is exactly what happened.  For example, at one point there was a problem with the tense usages; see this discussion about singular verb vs. plural verb use.  I went through the entire article and corrected every instance of the problem.


 * I like to look at model articles - admittedly there is not another FA about a children's musical group that has released music CDs, DVDs, done concert tours, and made a series of TV specials and shows (nor does another group with similar accomplishments come to mind). Still, the Wiggles are first and foremost a musical group, so I looked at several articles on musical groups that are FA (Radiohead, R.E.M., The Waterboys) and they all have much more on their music, a discography, and more on critical reception. Currently there is a link to List of The Wiggles' video and audio releases, but by WP:Summary style I think there should be more information on this in the article itself.


 * This is a great suggestion. I will work on this, and like the articles you cited, maybe I'll be able to add some audio clips, if I can find appropriate examples (i.e., their songs "Get ready to Wiggle" and "Do the monkey"). --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * So I was able to do this very thing! Yoo-hoo! (as the guys would say) I will add more about their music specifically.  The trouble with this, however, is that yes, The Wiggles are a music group, but unlike these other articles, very little has been written about each album and/or DVD and their influence on their genre.  I don't think it'd be wise, for example, to divide this article into albums as these other articles do.  Unfortunately, although the music represents the best of children's music, it's not a very respected genre, you know.  But I'll make a good faith effort and see what I can do. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 03:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, so I did some more looking around, and as I suspected, I was correct about my above prediction and unfortunately, there isn't much about The Wiggles' music and criticism. What is out there--using child development concepts in their music, the use of several different kinds of musical genres, their use of The Cockroaches' library in their early albums, the dancing/choreography they use--is included in the article.  As I said, I'd bet the reason there's so little out there is due to the fact that we're talking about children's music, and reviews don't tend to be written about this genre, as compared to more acceptable forms of music like the music performed by the groups Ruhrfisch cites.  As a result, other than the few sentences I was able to add, I believe that there isn't much more to add.  I also think dividing up this article more like a bio article is more appropriate than dividing it up like a music group's article.  As R states, this article already has a link to a discography list, and I think that's enough.  There's also info about the many music awards The Wiggles have earned.  I hope this doesn't mean that this prevents this article from going to FA status, but it's its well-written given the limitations of its subject matter, I don't think it will. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Since the Wiggles are also television preformers, I also think the article should give more information on their TV shows and series - according to TV.com they have had 6 seasons of their show. I know they had the first season or two that started with the song "Get ready to Wiggle", then they had the CGI opening "In the Wiggles world", then "Lights, Camera, Action", and now "The Wiggles Show". Presumably at some point there will be a series or season with Sam Moran. While there is a list of their TV specials (DVDs) at List of The Wiggles' video and audio releases, and the List of The Wiggles episodes (which only lists five seasons compared to TV.com's six). Again, summary style on these is also needed here.
 * The TV.com listing is a little misleading. The Wiggles have had six series up to now, but TV.com currently lists two DVDs in the 6th season.  Sam does appear in the 6th series, which hasn't aired in the U.S. yet, so specific info about it isn't on that site yet.  I don't agree with how they've organized things; their CDs and DVDs are lumped in the TV series.  I suspect they've done that because the series are often scenes from their DVDs.  Personally, I think they should be separated, like how we've done here.  At any rate, I went ahead and followed this suggestion and summarized; hope it's adequate. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I would also argue that since the Wiggles have much of the creative control for their music and television works, that is yet another reason to include more information on those.
 * See below, under your suggestion for improving organisation. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The article as it currently is could be more carefully organized in places - for example in the Early career section, the first sentence is about their debut album. Then the third sentence is about their debut performance, the fourth sentence is about their inital tour, both of which seem to be before the album was released. The fifth sentence is definitely after their album is released - this jumping around in time is confusing for the reader.
 * Tightened up to be less confusing. This was a copyedit issue that had missed other eyes, so thanks.  I'll take another look to see other examples, other than the one you cite below. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that the changes I just made has fulfilled this request. I tightened it up a bit; the "Success at home and abroad section" is now more chronological. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Another example is in the Success at home and abroad section - the first paragraph says they self produced two tv series, and that the ABC would not produce their tv show. Then the third paragraph says Disney channel began airing clips and then their series and the Wiggles began to film their television series exclusively with the ABC in 2002. There needs to be more expanation of this process.


 * I believe that I have adequately followed this suggestion. I incorporated more info from a SMH news article, something I had hesitated doing before because it comes across as kinda negative re: the ABC, and IMO, controversy doesn't belong in an article about children's performers.  But I think I was able to maintain WP:POV.  The SMH also had some tidbits about the guys' touring and music, so I went ahead and added those as well. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hope this helps - it is a very good article already and I hope these ideas help to make it even better, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's helped a great deal! I think that with your suggestions, this article has improved substantially.  I believe it may even now be ready for FA.  Thank you very, very much, R. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

More Ruhrfisch comments: Taking a second look as requested, this will mostly be nitpicky stuff.


 * Nickpick all ya want, dude. Please. ;) And thank you. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

*Not sure how to fix this, but ...and "The Wiggly dancers", a troupe of dancers. seems repetitive - perhaps and a troupe known as "The Wiggly dancers".?
 * In the lead, since there was a fifth Wiggle who dropped out, is this accurate: They were founded by Anthony Field, Murray Cook, Greg Page, and Jeff Fatt.? Perhaps something like "Their original members were..."?
 * Combine two sentences to get In 2005, The Wiggles earned more than AC/DC and Nicole Kidman combined, becoming Australia's "richest entertainers",[2] and in 2006 they earned $A50 million.[3] (punctuation goes outside the quotes)
 * Change tense in Cook was the guitarist in a minor Sydney pop band, Bang Shang a Lang, while working as a clerk at the Australian Taxation Office before returning to school.[6] to something like Cook was the guitarist in a minor Sydney pop band, Bang Shang a Lang, and had worked as a clerk at the Australian Taxation Office before returning to school.[6] to make it clear the tax office job preceded his returen to school.


 * Done. I believe that the reason the chronological order was unclear was that the reference was unclear, so I found a better one and changed it. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Is "Get Ready to Wiggle" a cover (unchanged from Cockroaches version) or reworked to be a children's song? Another Cockroaches song, "Get Ready to Wiggle", inspired the band's name.[5] should clarify this.


 * I think the change I made clarifies this. I've tried to include the Cockroaches version of "Do the Monkey", since it illustrates the point well (it's almost the same as the Wiggles version), but I haven't been able to format the file.  Talk about frustrating!  I will make another attempt later.


 * Need a citation / ref for direct quotes here The Wiggles music isn't all that far removed from what we did in The Cockroaches, just a different subject matter," Field stated. "The Cockroaches sing about girls and love and stuff like that; The Wiggles sing about hot potatoes and cold spaghetti".[?] (and punctuation goes outside the quote).


 * Okay, I'm still learning here. I thought that the correct way to cite is list the source after everything you've gotten from it.  For example, the above quote is also in the same article as the next two sentences, which quote Greg Page.  A better example is below: Jeff's quote is followed by They served as their own roadies and travelled in Fatt's van, towing a trailer with borrowed equipment. John Field and Mick Conway, who later became The Wiggles' general manager, performed with them.[12], which is from the same article.  I went ahead and added the citation after the quote, though, and I'll do the same with the rest of the article.


 * Need a citation for As Fatt reported, "it was very much a cottage industry."[?] Also make sure citations directly follow punctuation (at least one with a space between)
 * Need cite for (as Sam Moran said, "Jeff really does fall asleep");


 * See above.--Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Consider making two sentences into one with a colon when the second is a list, for example These characters were initially performed by the original members of The Wiggles[:] Field played Captain Feathersword... or Additionally, each Wiggle developed a "schtick" based on their actual behaviours[:] Greg performed magic...


 * Considered, and done.


 * Need cite for The Wiggles were musicians, "a rock band, pure and simple". and Cook quote following it.


 * Oops, missed this one, sorry.


 * They filmed a television pilot for the ABC in the mid-90s, but "the project never got off the ground due to irreconcilable artistic differences." Needs a cite and any way to give the exact year?


 * Done. I think this is quite clear.  It states that they filmed a pilot with the ABC in the mid-90s, and then produced their own shows in the late 90s.  The "aunty" article only gives that info, and it's the only source for this story out there.  I think that I came up with a good solution, though, gleamed from the next source about when the guys' first two series were produced and aired.


 * I am not going to point out any more direct quotations without cites - just read it and if you see quote s and no cite, add a ref please.

I'm pretty sure I did that. I'll look again later with fresh eyes.


 * The decision earned them respect and loyalty in the U.S. needs a ref - even though it is not a direct quote ;-)




 * Watch out for over-use of sentences in parentheses - once or twice is OK, but there are more than that here and most could lose the ""


 * Done, please excuse my style, and thanks for bringing it up, since it often doesn't follow MOS. I can also see how it can be distracting.


 * Perhaps use "seasons" for "years" in  In 2002, The Wiggles filmed three years of their television series ...

I just looked this up, and my assumption about referring to seasons vs series is so wrong! See this. My bad! I will change it! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 23:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * APRA and ARIA should probably be spelled out the first time, then abbreviated after.


 * R, I'm not sure this is necessary. These are presigious Aussie music industry and song writing awards, the equivalent of the U.S.' Grammys.  In the U.S., the accepted use is "Grammy," not its original name ("The Gramophone Awards").  I'm pretty certain that Aussies know these awards by their abbreviations, not by their long names.  Plus, the wikilink has the original names.  As a result, I'm leaving them as is.


 * Ref that says "See Tv.com" is not complete.


 * Those are notes, like #40. I added See episode guide, TV.com for clarification, though.


 * I still would like to see any sort of critical reception - reviews of their music and/or TV shows, educational theorists discusing their methods, anything.


 * There just isn't anything out there like this. There have been no formal studies of The Wiggles that I was able to find.  No theorists, no reviewers that talk about them, either.  I think that I've included what's out there and done the best I could do under the circumstances.  I have the guys on a google alert, so I'll add it if something like ever gets written.  In the meantime, I hope it doesn't stop us from FA.

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 17:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC) Hope


 * Oh, yes, it does. Thanks for your help.  I'm gonna follow a suggestion on the talk page, and then try one more tweak, and then submit it for FA tonight before I go to bed.  I think it's ready!  Woo hoo! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)