Wikipedia:Peer review/Theobald of Bec/archive2

Theobald of Bec
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I'd like to bring this to FAC at some point, and it's one of the first articles I got up to GA status back in 2007. I've just recently considerably expanded it, and would like comments on the comprehnesiveness and context as well as how much sense it makes to the non-specialist. It still needs alt text for the pictures and some of the prose may be a bit rough, but those will be fixed before FAC. Right now I'm much more concerned that the article make sense and give enough background to help the reader understand the context of his life.
 * Previous peer review

Thanks, Ealdgyth - Talk 21:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems to be pretty clear to me. I'm certainly no specialist in this area. Fixed some spelling errors while I read; lots of American English was there. Likely more still there. Prose is well-written. My only suggestion would be to add another para to the lede. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 02:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: Most interesting. It helps that I know a tiny bit about Thomas Becket and Henry II, and so the history of Theobald fits into a kind of continuum in my head. I'm always pleased to read things that expand my knowledge of history. I found and fixed a few typos and other small things as I went. I don't see any big problems, but I have a few suggestions nonetheless.

Lead
 * "(c.1090-18 April 1161)" - Spaced en dash in date range for birth-death ranges?
 * "The dispute of the primacy over the Welsh hierarchy... " - Wikilink "Welsh" to Wales?
 * "Among other issues that Theobald faced was a subordinate bishop who contested his authority, Henry of Blois, who was Bishop of Winchester." - Slightly smoother might be "Among other issues that Theobald faced was a subordinate bishop, Henry of Blois, Bishop of Winchester, who contested his authority."
 * "After the death of Stephen's son Eustace, Stephen recognised his rival Henry of Anjou as his heir." - It's not clear from this sentence alone who "his" refers to in "his rival Henry". Maybe just "recognized Henry of Anjou as his heir"?
 * "Stephen named Theobald regent of the kingdom after Stephen's death." - This sentence is puzzling too until all is clarified in the main text. It sounds impossible on the face of it. How could Stephen name anything if he was dead? It should be easy to recast this for clarity.
 * I'm inclined to agree with Mav that the lead might be better as a more-inclusive three paragraphs.

Family and background
 * "Becket's family also came from the same area of Normandy... " - Wikilink Normandy?

Life at Bec
 * "In 1127 Theobald was made prior of Bec,[6] when Boso succeeded William, and abbot in 1137,[6] after Boso's death in June 1136." - Missing word or words? Perhaps "and was made abbot"?

Appointment to Canterbury
 * "and Stephen was present with the papal legate, Alberic of Ostia... " - Wikilink papal legate? It's linked in the next section, but should be linked here instead, I think.
 * "Henry was absent overseeing the ordination of deacons" - Wikilink deacons?

Early years
 * "They base this on a Vita, or Life of the 12th century mystic... " - Lowercase vita and life?

Civil war
 * "Following King Henry's death in 1135, the succession was disputed between the king's nephews... " - The time gets fuzzy here. Perhaps "had been" rather than "was".
 * "were required to declare fealty to Matilda as Henry's heir, but when Henry I died in 1135" - Should he just be Henry the second time rather than Henry I? If you stick with both forms, it might seem that these are two different Henrys.
 * "Theobald contented himself with his possessions in France. Matilda, though, was less sanguine, and secured the support of the Scottish king, David, who was her maternal uncle... " - Consider wikilinking France and Scotland? I'm not sure everyone knows where they are or, for that matter, that Normandy was different from France. Maybe a little background geography early on would be helpful; for example, what was the relationship of England to Normandy in 1135? How come the clergy could go back and forth so easily? Lots of contemporary readers might not have much of an inkling about these matters.

Disputes with Stephen
 * "During the council, Bethune died, and Eugene nominated Foliot as the new Bishop of Hereford... " - Who is Bethune? Is he mentioned before this?
 * "and Theobald returned to his see" - Wikilink "see" to Episcopal see?

Relations with the cathedral clergy
 * "the regular running of the cathedral was done by the prior... " - Wikilink prior?

Relations with other monastic houses
 * "This was eventually settled by a papal mandate that the abbots should profess obedience in 1144." - Since he no doubt meant them to be obedient in other years too, perhaps this would be slightly better: "This was eventually settled by a papal mandate in 1144 that the abbots should profess obedience."

Patronage and household
 * "two chaplains who were monks, a butler, sidpenser, chamberlain, steward... " I think that should be "dispenser", but I'm not sure what the word means in this context. Should it and any of the other terms in this list be linked?

Death and legacy
 * with the historian Frank Barlow calling Theobald "an upright man, but quick tempered, and sometimes spoke far too rashly. - To make this entirely grammatical, maybe "with the historian Frank Barlow calling Theobald "an upright man, but quick tempered, ... [who] sometimes spoke far too rashly."

General
 * The images need alt text.
 * "Capetian" and "Robert of Gloucester" link to dabs.

Images
 * File:Great Seal of King Stephen.jpg might need some license tweaks. PurpleHz isn't actually the copyright holder. He or she appears to have scanned the image from the acknowledged book. Some sort of PD-old license may be more appropriate.

I hope these suggestions prove helpful. Finetooth (talk) 05:13, 11 February 2010 (UTC)