Wikipedia:Peer review/Tom Crean (explorer)/archive1

Tom Crean (explorer)

 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for October 2008.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for October 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed Tom Crean for peer review because I believe it is very close to Featured Article quality. The purpose of the review will be to make improvements necessary to move it to FA status. Prose, images, and sources need to be reviewed.

Thanks, Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: This looks pretty good to me, here are some nit-picky suggestions for improvement. If you want more comments, please ask here.
 * I think this needs a comma, otherwise it makes it sound like it was the first crossing of the island without maps (not just the first, period) Upon reaching South Georgia, Crean was one of the party of three which undertook the first land crossing of the island, without maps or proper mountaineering equipment.
 * Fixed


 * I would link public house in  Here, in his home town of Annascaul, he opened a public house with his wife Eileen called the "South Pole Inn". as North American English speakers may not know this without a link.
 * Now linked


 * Would it help to give his place in his family (oldest of ten children, third, youngest, whatever) if this is known?
 * Smith's biog doesn't give Tom's place in the order of children, saying merely that the ten children were born during the 1860s and 1870s. Given Crean's birth year of 1877, this would suggest that he was among the youngest, but unless Zatoichi has another source, I don't think this information is known. Brianboulton (talk) 14:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur, Smith's book does not give this information, and I don't have any other sources. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Refs usually come after punctuation unless there is a very good reason not to, so why not change The ship landed at Hut Point[7] on 8 February 1902, ...
 * Fixed


 * Did they use sled dogs or did the men pull the sleds? Make this clearer (in harness) in Crean soon established himself as one of the most consistent sledgers in the party, with only seven of the 48–member party logging more time in harness than Crean's 149 days.[8]
 * Changed "sledgers" to "man-haulers" and wikilinked it to Manhauling. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Refs come after punctuation, so fix things like It is clear that Captain Scott held Tom Crean in high regard[14][15], and so Crean was among ... 
 * Fixed


 * 35 miles on the ice alone on three biscuits and a bit of chocolate - this was the age of heroes, simply amazing.
 * Definitely - another unbelievable moment was when, getting weak and needing to get to their next food cache, and facing a long circuitous route around an icefall on the Beardmore Glacier, Crean, Lashly and Evans decided to get on their sledge and "sled" down the heavily crevassed glacier. They ended up gaining a couple thousand feet in a few minutes... amazing they did not die at that point. Anyway that is an aside, unrelated to peer review! Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ...but it could be a good insert into the article, perhaps? Brianboulton (talk) 09:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I added this story in the 4th paragraph. Interesting, with modesty characteristic of all these men, Lashly simply wrote "so we decided on the descent into the valley" and "this proved a difficult task". (understatement of the year)  Smith writes a more colourful version by piecing it together from Lashly and Evans' diaries. Zatoichi26 (talk) 03:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Make clearer how they knew Scott et al. had died before At Cape Evans the winter of 1912 was a sombre one, with the knowledge that the polar party had perished.
 * Do you think this point is necessary? After all this is a Crean biographical article, not meant to go in depth on Scott's last expedition. If you feel strongly about it I can incorporate that. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I know they did not have portable radios or other means of long distance communication, so I assume that they knew they had perished from the Scott party's failure to return? If so, could it be something like At Cape Evans the winter of 1912 was a sombre one, with the knowledge that the polar party had failed to return and so had perished.? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:16, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This seems reasonable so I've done this. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the transition would be clearer if it read something like  The [Shackleton's] ship, the Endurance, was beset in the pack ice on 19 January 1915, ...
 * Agreed, I changed to "Shackleton's ship, the Endurance, was..." Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would not put the image Image:Tom Crean2b.JPG in the middle of a sentence. Perhaps break the paragraph into two ... after practically took Tom Crean, aboard the Endurancecharge as Hudson was breaking down psychologically.[39][40]
 * Fixed


 * I would attribute this (who described it) The journey has been described as one of the most extraordinary feats of seamanship and navigation in recorded history.[43]
 * Attributed to Alexander.


 * Is it possible to expand or perhaps combine this short paragraph: Upon returning to Britain in November 1916, Crean returned to naval duty. He was promoted to the rank of Warrant Officer in recognition of his service on the Endurance,[47] and was awarded his third Polar Medal. Perhaps move it to the start of the next section (as it fits there better)?
 * I moved it to Later Life, I agree it fits there better. This screwed up the position of "Later Life" heading a little, I tried moving the photo a couple of times but it just ended up making the text a mess.  Brian or Ruhrfisch, maybe you know how to fix this..? Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added a bit to the text and the heading's position is OK now. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * These need refs: He and Eileen opened up a small pub in Annascaul called the South Pole Inn. He had three daughters, Mary, Kate, and Eileen, although Kate died when she was four years old. and Crean was buried in his family tomb at the cemetery in Ballynacourty. He was commemorated in at least two place names: Mount Crean (8630 feet, 2630 m) in Victoria Land, and the Crean Glacier on South Georgia. (who named these two features?)
 * Re. the mountain and the glacier, the wiki article on the glacier says it was named by the UK Arctic Place Names Committee (UK-APC). On this organisation's website is a link to a "gazetteer" page which looked promising - but it appears to be a dead link. If this page can be accessed it might have the information we seek. Brianboulton (talk) 14:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * (Later) I have accessed the gazetteer and it is unhelpful - doesn't list any names in the sectors relevant to Crean. So for the present the answer is, we don't know who named them - possibly Scott the mountain and Shackleton the glacier, but this is conjecture.Brianboulton (talk) 18:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I added citations from Smith for all the items above. Zatoichi26 (talk) 02:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Watch overlinking - Polar Medal is linked way too many times - I try to link only twice (lead and first mention after)
 * Fixed Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Use of ibid in refs is discouraged - what if someone else inserts another ref between these, then it looks like the ibid refers to this.
 * Fixed Zatoichi26 (talk) 02:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have done some routine fixing as indicated above. Brianboulton (talk) 11:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, that addresses all the suggestions above. Thanks Ruhrfisch for your input - very helpful. Brian & Ruhrfisch do you have anything else to add, and do you think it is ready for recommendation to FA status? Zatoichi26 (talk) 03:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Before it goes to FAC I would like the images to be looked at by one of the image reviewers. I have found it very helpful in the past to get images issues out of the way, if possible, before FAC. I have asked User:Elcobbola to do this, but he is not responding to requests at the moment - he is probably away. I could ask another, but looking at the FAC page, image reviewers seem to be few and far between at he moment. I suggest leave this for a couple of days and then reconsider. In the meantime I mean to do a last-minute prose check in search of redundacies, repetitions, passive voice, weasel words etc. But subject to those factors, I think the article is pretty well ready. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(You will see I have started this. Brianboulton (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Finished. Brianboulton (talk) 10:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Note re distances A couple of the mileages, length of James Caird voyage (800 miles) and distance to the pole when last support party left Scott (146 miles) are given in nautical miles, which makes the km conversions wrong. The rest of the distances seem to be in statute miles. We should be consistent throughout, so I have altered the nautical distances to their statute miles equivalents, and added an explanatory footnote (I got into trouble with the Nimrod Expedition FAC for not doing this. I have also adopted the convert template to get the most accurate kilometre readings. Brianboulton (talk) 14:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not an image expert, or I would try to help. Looks even better, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:16, 29 October 2008 (UTC)