Wikipedia:Peer review/Virginia Military Institute/archive1

Virginia Military Institute
I think we have a good start on an article that covers the historical role of VMI and its current place as a liberal arts college with a military environment.

Would appreciate any and all suggestions on how to improve the article. Rillian 13:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

PS's comments
First of all, it is a good introduction to the school. I commend you for the work you have done. I tend to be a tough editor and critic. So please do not take to heart the number of my queries below.
 * 1) In the lead, I'd take out the information about the endowment and its alumni and move it into the body.
 * 2) In the info box, I'd remove "address", because all it does is adds a ZIP code to the town, which is already stated in "location"
 * 3) Under student life, I would include more about admissions. Who can get in?  Just Virginians?  What's the tuition like?  There is also information about the physical plant that feels out of place.  The honor code that leads the section off seems better placed below where the life of a "rat" is discussed.
 * 4) The "Old Corps" is introduced without explanation. I presume that's the upperclassmen, but that needs to be stated.
 * 5) "Sleeping and relaxing are luxuries of the past." That's a fine magazine sentence, but it feels out of place here.
 * 6) "Sweat-parties" needs definition.
 * 7) The first superintendent and Col. Crozet "imbued [VMI] with the discipline and the spirit for which it is famous" needs to be fleshed out since the former doesn't have an article and the latter's doesn't say much about what he did there. Where did these men get their military ideas?
 * 8) You refer to Stonewall Jackson at first then go to Thomas Jackson. I'd call him Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson at first and Stonewall Jackson later on.
 * 9) The section on WWI and WII seems more about alumni than the school's actual participation in the conflict, unlike the Civil War section. That information seems better placed under alumni than history.
 * 10) Those abbreviations you use for alumni (VADM, BG, etc.) not only look ugly, but are going to be unfamiliar to most people. Maybe you could copy it to Word and "search and replace" them with more familiar forms and copy it back here.
 * 11) The statistics on the composition of the corps of cadets and the information on women seems better placed up at the beginning of the student section.
 * 12) I'd cite the name of the Supreme Court case, with the official citation, that let women into VMI.
 * 13) You should mention Brother Rat, which I believe was a play before it was made into an early Ronald Reagan-Eddie Albert-Jane Wyman picture, oh, circa 1937. It's about VMI.  Plus any other pop culture appearances VMI might have made.
 * 14) I'd like to see more about the organization and governance of the school. How are the trustees chosen?  How is the administration organized?  What relationship does the school have to other public Virginia colleges?  (Is there a state board of regents overseeing it, that sort of thing.)  What kind of appropriation does it get from the State?  Is there any affilation between the school and the state militia/guard?
 * 15) Only two references and both are to web-sites? I checked the Library of Congress catalog and there's a number of books on the school, including one by Superintendent Smith.  A better bibliography is needed.  To start with, I'd give the citation to the print edition of the articles you cited.

That all said, I do believe you are on the way to a featured status and I commend your work.PedanticallySpeaking 15:43, September 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the excellent suggestions. Items 1 and 10 completed. Item 13, Brother Rat, now in VMI trivia section. I'll work on the others tonight. Rillian 16:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Items 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13 completed Rillian 00:56, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Whew! satisfy those requirements, and you do have a Featured Article! I could only add that I miss good clear photos of Alexander Jackson Davis's buildings, some of which might illustrate the architect's own entry. --Wetman 23:23, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Article fine as is
Article looks great in its current form! The student life section after the introduction is appropriate and it fills the space that was left open and blank in the earlier edits. The article is balanced in its facts and precisely written. Previous edits would state a fact, then quantify and or dilute the fact. For example, in the current edit, the rankings and ROTC comments are precise and to the point. Previous edits went into too much "watered down" detail. For example, previous edits were: 18% who make 20 year military careers, general peay acknowledges going from 40% to 70% is a challenge, for a small school of 1300 it does quite well: 1st of 20 something and 70 something of 2 hundred something, and so on and so on...Article in its current form states the facts:ranked first among public liberal arts colleges, all students are military corps of cadets, 50% commissioned in 2005 with 70% being a goal, largest per student endowment of any PUBLIC college, etc. This version as it is looks very good and any changes should be minimal. Noticed many of the edits made by rillian to VMI were followed up with revisions by the same to south carolina's version of VMI...is there a reason? The two schools are very different. VMI's current revision looks great and thanks to everyone for the input. How long are we going to leave the peer review notice up? Marshall3 18:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * On military service, I think it enhances the article to know that 18 percent of the graduates go on to a 20-year career in the military. Why would that not be of interest to readers?


 * On the rankings, simply stating that VMI is the best public liberal arts college is not NPOV without telling readers there are only 20 schools in the U.S. that fit that category. With hundreds of public colleges in the nation, someone could easily misinterpret these rankings to think the VMI was the highest ranked school across a much broader category. Many wikipedians feel that subjective rankings like those from US News are not encyclopdia material and should not be any article. Rillian 01:02, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Marshall3 and disagree with Rillian
Isn't Rillian the one who disputed several proven facts about VMI's rankings in the first place? (Check archived discussions) Those "misrepresentations" were proven, and in the end he had a bit of "egg on the face." Why does Rillian choose which versions are "correct" and which are not?

Who cares about 18 percent for 20 year plus career? That type of minutia is not on other school site articles. Just leave it as 70% goal with 50 % commissioned for 2005. Also, a ranking is a ranking. What type of be-littling statement is "for a college with only 1300 cadets, VMI does quite well?" That is patronizing and not needed. 20 of this 70 of that...MArshall3 is right. The article as it stands looks very good indeed.

Also, "VMI has graduated more generals and flag officers than any other state military college" is very important and should be placed in Notable Graduate section because it testifies to the excellence of the school. There are other "lesser-quality state military colleges" out there who mislead and misrepresent...when it comes to state military colleges, VMI is premier. This statement is important and is directly related to notable graduates. It doesn't need to be buried.

Finally, take out the statement, "While not directly affilliated to the us military." Who cares? It is VIRGINIA Military Institute...that says enough. Why the qualifying statement? It reads much better to state simply that all VMI cadets must take 4 years of ROTC and VMI offers ROTC for all braches of the military.

Remember, sometimes Simplicity is much better than too much intimate and unusable detail. Cadet1 17:38, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Sera's comments
(copied from Talk:Virginia Military Institute by Rillian 02:29, 26 September 2005 (UTC))

While I think the article is quite comprehensive, there are a few questions that come to mind, from a reader that knows ABSOLUTELY nothing about VMI at all:
 * Lead: a picture would be good here, just to give some more visual interest.
 * Lead: I am not sure that the mission statement belongs here, but would like to know what about VMI makes it different from colleges in general, and military colleges in particular, in terms of its goals and mission.
 * Early history: why was VMI founded? A need for such an institute in the state? Who/what organisation founded VMI?
 * Early history: "Living conditions were poor" - I assume this means that the cadets were housed in tents or similar. It would be good to explain this point, as the lead mentions the "spartan" environment current cadets live in.  It is not clear what the difference between the current physically demanding environment and historical poor living conditions consists of - I could guess, but if I wanted to guess I wouldn't be reading the article!
 * Civil War period: These sentences are quite staccato. The first paragraph in particular would benefit from more flow.
 * Civil War period: The information on VMI being one of the three military schools to have students fight as a unit in war might be good to use in the lead, as it certainly makes VMI special.
 * World War I and II: Should this be combined with Civil War period in a section on other wars/military engagments that VMI has played a role in? I would assume there were other wars that VMI played a role in.
 * Student life: What makes it unique? What is in this section makes it sound like other military academies.
 * Student life: It would be good to have a photo of the barracks next to its description. What are the barracks like inside? Like a normal student dorm, or something different?
 * Ratline: A photo of a freshman in uniform would be good here: the reader would get to see the uniform, and the "straining"
 * Ratline: "The initial week is a crash course in everything VMI" - wouldn't the marching and weapon cleaning be more generic skills any cadet would learn, while the rules, songs and history be more specific to VMI. I think that it would be better to talk about the aspects of the cadet experience specific to VMI.
 * Athletics: What does it mean to "complete their eligibility"?
 * Parapet photo: While I guess this building must be on campus, what is its significance? The building is not referred to in the article.
 * Academic information: Is VMI known for any of its academic programs? The article gives the impression that academic life is not important.

Sera 03:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)