Wikipedia:Peer review/W. Somerset Maugham/archive1

W. Somerset Maugham


Following successful FAC nominations for George Bernard Shaw, Hugh Walpole and Arnold Bennett I've worked on another British writer, and hope to take him too to FA. All comments on content, prose, structure or anything else will be gratefully received.  Tim riley  talk   10:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

From Smerus
I really know 0 about WSM except that he was one of the authors, together with D H Lawrence and Norman Douglas, published by Giuseppe Orioli in Florence in the 1930s (The Book Bag, 1932) - as that's mentioned in the Orioli article it might just be worth slipping in here - or not. The article reads fine to me. You might (?) say a bit more about the Ashenden stories and how they relate to his own experiences in Russia, etc.? all best, --Smerus (talk) 13:48, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll let the Florentine connexion pass, but I think you're right about expanding on Ashenden a bit, and I'll do so. Thank you, Smerus.  Tim riley  talk   19:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * And now done. Thanks, as ever, Smerus,  Tim riley  talk   20:06, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments
I've made a couple of little tweaks here and there (see the history), most of which are uncontentious. I'll draw one of them to your attention, which relates to commas. On the whole you don't use serial commas, but there are one or two places where you do. Whichever you settle on, it should be consistent.
 * Good point. Shall comb through and standardise.  Tim riley  talk   13:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Early works
 * The Making of a Saint – probably best to include a year of publication on the first mention.
 * Yes, good idea. Will do.  Tim riley  talk   13:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * "Between 1908 and the outbreak of the First World War in 1914 Maugham wrote" comma after 1914?
 * Not persuaded, but not hostile either and will do.  Tim riley  talk   13:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

1920s: travel and divorce
 * "choose between living in Britain and being with Haxton, because" Or, instead of and? I had to re-read as I initially thought living in Britain and being with H were one side of the choice
 * Excellent point. How hopeless one is at reading one's prose as though through others' eyes! "Or" it shall certainly be.  Tim riley  talk   13:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Short stories
 * "widow who kicks over the traces" I am not sure that is a common enough idiom – it will likely confuse many
 * Blast! I had a nasty idea someone would say that. I'll try to find a way of expressing it that's neither unfamiliar on the one hand nor starchy on the other, but suggestions would be exceedingly welcome.  Tim riley  talk   13:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Now done, I think.  Tim riley  talk   14:27, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Adaptations
 * The New York Times quote beginning "There are times when" is long enough to be a block quote (per MOS:BQ)
 * I dithered about this when drafting the para. Happy to put it in a block.  Tim riley  talk   13:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll give it another readthrough in a few days to see if there is anything else. - The editor formerly known as SchroCat, editing from 2A00:23C7:2B86:9801:CDF3:7726:8C0C:5BD (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, dear boy! Some good stuff there, and if you have any more it will be gladly received.  Tim riley  talk   13:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * All now done except for the Oxford commas, which I shall deal with when I'm feeling unusually strong between now and FAC.  Tim riley  talk   14:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Commas now pruned.  Tim riley  talk   22:05, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

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Comments by Dudley

 * Query. Is it your preference or his that you describe him as English rather than British?
 * Bit of both. As we have WP categories for English novelists, English short story writers etc I generally try to follow suit, just as I wouldn't label Robert Burns or Dylan Thomas British poets, but would call them Scottish and Welsh respectively. Maugham referred to himself as an English writer, but I don't place too much reliance on that, as in his day it was a disgraceful habit of the upper and upper-middle classes to use "England/English" when "Britain/British" would have been the honest and accurate term. (H. H. Asquith's grave bears the inscription "Prime Minister of England, April 1908 to December 1916". Enough to start Welsh and Scottish Nationalist movements!)
 * Many years ago my sister-in-law told me that her Scottish relatives were fond of playing Trivial Pursuit, made in Canada, but they were furious when one of the questions was which country is the River Clyde in? Answer England. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * "as the masterpiece among his novels". This sounds a bit ambiguous to me. A masterpiece compared with his other novels or compared with any novels?  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The former, not the latter. But I struggle to rephrase it: I can't call it his masterpiece full stop, given the praise heaped on his play The Circle; and "his novelistic masterpiece" is clunky. Perhaps "as his masterpiece among his novels", despite the repeated pronoun (or possibly repeated determiner − my grammar is collapsing under me)? Suggestions hereby solicited and would be gratefully received.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Now "as Maugham's masterpiece among his novels". I think that works. Do you think so?  Tim riley  talk   14:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That's OK - or Maugham's finest novel? Dudley Miles (talk) 16:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That's tons better! ( Sound, offstage, of TR kicking himself. )  Tim riley  talk   19:14, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * "Maugham was sent to England in the care of his paternal uncle Henry MacDonald Maugham, the vicar of Whitstable in Kent". "in the care of" could mean that the uncle took care of him on the journey. To live with?
 * Yes, better. Shall do.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * And now done.  Tim riley  talk   13:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * "His daily routine was to write between an early breakfast and lunchtime, after which he entertained himself." Is it known how he entertained himself?
 * He read voraciously, and also exercised, walked, swam, and engaged in other things we needn't dwell on. After dinner he was a keen (and pretty good) bridge player. But I think these details are a bit too minor and mundane to add.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * "particularly the Maugham family". You have not gone into his family unless I have missed it. Who were they?
 * Syrie, while she lived, and Liza, who outlived him. Maugham and his brother Frederic got on very badly, but it is the relations with ex-wife and daughter (and son-in-law) that some accuse Searle of exacerbating. I'll see if I can make this clear without introducing my own WP:OR.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Done, I think.  Tim riley  talk   14:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I would prefer "particularly his daughter and ex-wife", but maybe that sounds clumsy. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Not clumsy, but it would be interpreting the source's "the family" rather too much, verging on OR, I feel.  Tim riley  talk   19:14, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Worth saying that Beverley Nichols wrote a defence of Syrie?
 * Nice idea. If I can find a place for it to sit naturally I'll add it.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Notes 1 and 15 give duplicate details of his death.
 * Indeed so, but I need the extra sentence in note 15 and it would be utterly incomprehensible to readers if included in note 1. I don't much like this, but I really think the present arrangement is the best possible. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Is it known why he published as Somerset even though he preferred Willie?
 * I haven't seen any quotable evidence. Some of his early stuff was published as by "W. S. Maugham". But he was definitely "Willie" and never "William", and one can't imagine "Willie Maugham" on the title pages of Victorian and Edwardian books.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * You mention an early interest in Schopenhauer and Spinoza. Did this influence his writing in any way?
 * I think the former appealed to Maugham's pessimism, but I don't know that he actually influenced his writing. Spinoza made a strong impression on him, and must, I'm quite sure, have influenced his outlook on the world, but I can't think of any examples in the sources of a clear influence on WSM's writing.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * A very interesting and well written article. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:12, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, Dudley. If you have time and inclination I'd be glad of your further thoughts on a couple of the points above.  Tim riley  talk   13:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Really excellent stuff, Dudley. I'm in your debt.  Tim riley  talk   19:14, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

With warm thanks to colleagues, above, for their suggestions, I'm closing the review and moving on to FAC, where needless to say, I'd love to see them join me.  Tim riley  talk   19:52, 24 August 2022 (UTC)