Wikipedia:Peer review/Walter Bache/archive1

Walter Bache
This peer review discussion has been closed. This article is about one of the largely unsung heroes of classical music in the 19th century, one whose efforts had incalculable results yet whose story has only recently been retold. I've listed this article for peer review because, after substantially expanding and revamping it, I would appreciate additional input to bring it up to GA or FA quality, as befitting the subject matter.

Thanks, Jonyungk (talk) 21:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley Unsung indeed! This is an interesting and most readable article. It certainly covers the musical side of things very thoroughly and clearly. My only general comment is that although there is a section headed "Personality", we get hardly any impression of what Bache was like as a person. Did he have a private life away from the keyboard? Did he have any friends as opposed to professional contacts? (I see that the Musical Times obit – April 1888, p. 229 – said, "His lovable character endeared and bound him to his many friends…") Did he inherit his father's religious views? Apart from that, I think this article is well-balanced, well-paced, and generally well-referenced: I noticed one or two statements that did not immediately appear to have a citation attached to them, e.g. "a performance of Mendelssohn's oratorio St. Paul, at which his organ playing was noted, and a solo piano recital which featured a few pieces by Liszt."

I have corrected a few typos, but there are two or three additional (possible) ones mentioned below. None of the following points are of any great moment.
 * Lead
 * Blue links for "English" and "Germany". I believe current Wikipedia guidance is not to link the names of countries, capital cities etc.
 * "on a regular basis" – perhaps just "regularly" would be easier to read
 * Early years
 * "born at Birmingham" is a very old-fashioned usage; modern usage is "born in Birmingham"
 * "studied piano" – is the blue link really needed here?
 * "acquaintanted" – presumably a typo, but as it's within a quote I didn't like to alter it.
 * "early in the morning some ways out of town so that he had to get up early" – some way (singular) perhaps? (Two "early"s, too)
 * Studies with Liszt
 * "on a regular basis" – again, perhaps just "regularly" would be crisper.
 * Promoting Liszt's music
 * "he relied on prominent theorists such as Carl Weitman and Friedrich Niecks, and Dannreuther and Ebenezer Proust also occasionally served as annotators" – I might be inclined to chop this long sentence in two after "Niecks"
 * "inperturbably" – another probable typo within a quote
 * "favored" – An English writer is quoted: did he use the American spelling?
 * "my visit to London would indeed not to be thought of" – this reads rather oddly, and I see that the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article on Bache quotes the words as, "...were indeed not to be thought of" (my italics).
 * "and a public reception in Liszt's honour" – UK spelling in a generally U.S.-English article. (I'd be happy to give the whole article a U.S. -v- UK spell check if you would find that helpful before you nominate it for GA or FA)
 * Other achievements
 * "Bache became professor of piano…" I think it would be good to say when, and for how long he held the post. The ODNB article mentions that the RAM's Liszt scholarship was turned into the Liszt–Bache scholarship after Bache's death – might be worth adding.
 * Death
 * I find it helpful, in a biographical article, to add the subject's age at death at this point. It saves the reader having to jump back to the top and do a spot of mental arithmetic.
 * Personality
 * We learn here that Edward died of consumption. We encountered his memorial much earlier in the article. I wonder if it might help the flow if you were to move the reference to consumption to the earlier point: "…to raise finds for the erection of a memorial window to his brother Edward who had died of consumption on xxxx"
 * Technique and repertoire
 * "vigor" – in a quote from the Musical Standard: this was an English publication, so the spelling would, I imagine, be "vigour".
 * "benefitted" – should this be "benefited", or is that quirk of usage a solely British aberration?
 * "He also played various works by Mackenzie, Mendelssohn, Mozart, Raff, Silas, Tchaikovsky and Volkmann and more familiar pieces by Bach, Beethoven and Chopin" – this is the first mention of most of these composers – blue links needed, perhaps.
 * Works written for Bache and Books on Bache
 * These sections are so short that I'd be inclined to lose them and incorporate the information in the biography section.
 * References
 * "Ithica" – should this be Ithaca?
 * Notes
 * I'm not sure if there is a standard laid down for our guidance on this, but I think most articles have the Notes before the References.

All very minor stuff, but I hope it's of use. Final silly question: do we know how Bache's name is pronounced? Like Johann Sebastian's or rhyming with the letter H, or what? – Tim riley (talk) 08:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for all your excellent comments, which I will seek to incorporate in the article. Jonyungk (talk) 00:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Brief note: I always read Bache as rhyming with "hatch", but I can't ever remember hearing anyone say it. I have a few more comments which I will add shortly. Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Further comments: Not finished yet, but something to be going on with:-
 * Early life: "overly-easy-going" ia a mouthful - one hyphen too many. I suggest "overly easy-going"
 * Studies with Liszt:
 * Who was Ramacciotti?
 * "Between 1863 and 1865 Bache received private lessons from Liszt, one of the few pupils privileged to do so". Something slightly wrong; Bache "received", he didn't do. I would prefer "Between 1863 and 1865 Bache received private lessons from Liszt, one of the few pupils thus privileged"
 * "a trip by Anton Rubinstein"? Should this be "trio"? Should the instrument details be given?
 * "Bache's studies with Liszt did not end when he left Italy." Apart from the brief mention earlier of "several public concerts in Rome", I wasn't aware that Bache had spent any significant time in Italy.
 * Promoting Liszt's music
 * Another slightly puzzling "when Bache returned from Rome"
 * "a lifelong crusade to winning popularity for Liszt's works" - should be "win" not "winning"
 * The second and third paragraphs give many details about what became the "Walter Bache Annual Concerts", but some information seems to be lacking. For example, where were these concerts held? Were they well-attended? Did they increase in popularity as time went on? What were the popular and critical responses?
 * "Also worth mentioning was the quality of program notes Bache provided for these concerts." Unnecessary POV sentence, suggest delete.
 * Who is Ebenezer Proust?
 * (Author of À la recherche du contrepoint perdu, of course. Sorry - ignore me.) Tim riley (talk) 08:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that a sic joke? (ignore me, too) Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Repetition: we have near-successive sentences beginning "These notes", "These essays", "These notes"
 * Sentence needing attention: "Bülow conducted two concerts, Dannreuther also conducted two concerts, and August Manns, an admirer of Liszt's works who also conducted the popular Crystal Palace concerts, conducted four concerts." Repetitive prose; what were these "popular Crystal Palace concerts", and why is "Crystal Palace" linked here?

More later: Brianboulton (talk) 00:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)


 * continuing
 * Promoting Liszt (continued)
 * "They also almost invariably lost money." Slightly inelegant, and probably unnecessary, since the financial burden on Bache has already been mentioned
 * "50 pounds" is never written that way when describing money. Try £50.
 * "...a memorable reception at the Grosvenor Gallery." Whose description? But I wonder if this paragraph should be merged into the next section?


 * Other achievements: can you date Bache's RAM appointment?
 * Death: "Bache died in London at the age of 45 after a brief illness." Give date of death.
 * Technique and repertoire
 * There are rather too many verbatim quotes in the first paragraph, whch would read much more smoothly if more use was made of paraphrase.
 * "Bache also played a number of works by other composers in his recitals, but a number of the works he programmed are unfamiliar today." Clunky repetition, suggest: "Bache also played a number of works by other composers in his recitals, many of which are unfamiliar today."
 * "Grateful for Bülow's assistance in conducting two of his annual concerts, Bache programmed several of his piano works in his recitals." Needs rephrasing to clarify that "his" refers to Bulow. Thus, perhaps: "Grateful for Bülow's assistance in his annual concerts, Bache programmed several of the conductor's piano works in his recitals."
 * "Another work rarely heard today was the Danklied nach strum by Adolf Henselt, a piece which would have benefitted from Bache's delicate approach." Not sure what the last part means, or whose viewpoint this is.
 * Reception: again, I think this section is overreliant on direct quotations, and would benefit from paraphrase.
 * Finally: do the last two nuggets of information really deserve to be in sections of their own? I would have thought these facts could have been absorbed elsewhere in the text. Also, see ref 4 "Baache".
 * Overall comment: Fascinating account of an unsung hero, impressively researched. After polishing, will make a fine FAC. In this regard you may wish to trim the "Promoting..." section just a little; also, personal information is very slight for a biography. Does Constance give any details about his personal life that could be briefly mentioned.
 * Unfortunately, she gives virtually no personal details, fosusing instead on musical matters. Same with Walker. Jonyungk (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I hope you find these comments helpful. I shall watch this article's development with interest. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 1 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much. They are indeed very useful. Jonyungk (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: This looks very good to me, but as requested, here are some suggestions for improvement. I will make comments as I read through the article more carefully, but these are mostly nitpicks. Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Peer review/backlog. I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Please let me know when this is at FAC too. Yours, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 15:16, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the Moiré patterns in the scanned images can be fixed some way (I do not know how to do this). It may be that a request at Graphic Lab/Photography workshop might be fruitful
 * Thanks for the suggestion. I have made the request. Jonyungk (talk) 19:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it would help to add the years or at least the first year of his three years with Liszt to He studied privately with Liszt for three years in Italy, one of the few students allowed to do so, and continued to attend Liszt's masterclasses in Weimar, Germany regularly for many years after that, even after embarking on a solo career. in the Lead
 * His sister Constance Bache has an article and should be wikilinked. I also find it helpful to mention all siblings initially, so would probably add her to the sentence Bache was born in Birmingham as the second-oldest son of a well-known Unitarian minister ... somehow, or at least mention her ealier in the article
 * either drop the "the" or the apostrophe s in the Mendelsohn's D minor piano trio,...
 * Is W1 useful to know in They began modestly, in Collard's Rooms, Grosvenor Street, W1.?
 * St James's Hall in Regents Square could be linked
 * Would it make sense to translate names that are not in English and are not linked? 'i.e. 'Soldatenlied'' = Soldier's song? Probably others
 * Other achievements - can a year be given for Bache became professor of piano at the Royal Academy of Music.? Can any more detail be given on his duties there? Any famous pupils? Seems like there should be more on this part of his life.
 * There hasn't been any details about Bache's time at the RAM in any of my sources, not even the date of his hiring. I have e-mailed the RAM library at least for the date but have received no reply. Jonyungk (talk) 03:25, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Could this be a typo? "Another work rarely heard today was the Danklied nach strum by Adolf Henselt, ..."? If it were Danlied nach Sturm (Song of thanksgiving after a storm) that would make sense, but "strum" is not a German word I know.
 * Another possible typo? "through" for "throuth" in Those who do not appreciate Liszt through Mr. Bache's readings of his works will certainly never learn to appreciate them throuth any other interpreter."[69] or is it in the original this way?
 * "Backlashed negatively" just sounds odd to me (in Despite receiving positive reviews for his pianism, Bache's difficulties with the critics on behalf of Liszt's music backlashed negatively on his performing career.) would "had a negative backlash on his performing career" be better?
 * Why was there no annual concert in 1887? I know he died in 1888, so can understand not having one that year ;-) Did he decide his mission was complete after Liszt's LOndon appearance the year before?
 * My guess is that the costs of the 1886 celebrations were so high that Bache could not afford an orchestral concert that year; he did not attend Liszt's master class in Weimar, either. Constance might mention something to this effect; if so, should it be mentioned in the article? Also, while Bache did not have an orchestral, he gave a couple of solo recitals that year. Should this be mentioned also? Jonyungk (talk) 03:25, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * When I first read he gave the last of the series of concerts two years before he died, I assumed he was in poor helath the last two years of his life. I know sometimes there are just no sources or information in the existing sources (this or the RAM), but if there is material in his sister's biography, or information that there were no orchestral concerts that year but there were solo recitals, I would at least mention it. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 15:24, 3 July 2010 (UTC)