Wikipedia:Peer review/William Lyon Mackenzie/archive2

William Lyon Mackenzie


I've listed this article for peer review because I want to nominate it for FAC.

Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 18:13, 13 March 2021 (UTC)


 * STANDARD NOTE: for quicker and more responses to pre-FAC peer review requests, please remember to add your PR page to Template:FAC peer review sidebar (already done). And when you close this peer review, please be sure to remove it from there. Also consider adding the sidebar to your userpage so you can help others by participating in other pre-FAC peer reviews.  Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:49, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Comments from SandyGeorgia
Will come back to read through, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:50, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Inconsistency on MOS:DATERANGE
 * The Colonial Advocate and early years in York (1823–27) should be 1823–1827
 * Reform member of the Legislative Assembly (1827–1834)
 * Upper Canada politics (1834–1836)
 * Upper Canada Rebellion (1837–1838)
 * Check throughout, MOS:CAPTIONS, no punctuation on sentence fragments, eg ... A portrait of Isabel, Mackenzie's wife, created in 1850. ... there are others.
 * MOS:DONTHIDE in Upper Canada Rebellion (1837–1838) section.
 * Do you mean the Upper Canada Rebellion campaignbox template? It was put there before I started editing. Would it be better at the bottom of the article? Otherwise, I do not know how to "unhide" it. Z1720 (talk) 20:08, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I don’t know how to uncollapse them either; those things are taking over articles and I hate them, but will ignore it :) Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:07, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The house image in the "Later life and death (1858–1861)" section has the house facing off the page, away from the text, and would be more aesthetic on the right-hand side.
 * Apoplectic seizure in the "Later life and death (1858–1861)" section is not linking to any kind of seizure.  for help on this link.
 * For reference, Apoplectic seizure wikilinks to Apoplexy
 * Notable works are all external jumps, WP:ELNO.
 * Apoplectic seizure in the "Later life and death (1858–1861)" section is not linking to any kind of seizure.  for help on this link.
 * For reference, Apoplectic seizure wikilinks to Apoplexy
 * Notable works are all external jumps, WP:ELNO.
 * Commented above about MOS:DONTHIDE and apoplectic. Everything else is done. Z1720 (talk) 20:08, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * An "apoplectic seizure" is not a kind of epileptic seizure, but a historical term used for any case where someone drops down dead all of a sudden. While the root of the word might imply a stroke, it shouldn't be assumed to be accurate. Such a historical and inaccurate term as "apoplectic seizure" should not be used in Wikipedia's voice. The source itself puts it in quotes: 'On 28 Aug. 1861 Mackenzie suffered an “apoplectic seizure” which proved fatal.' We could do that, but I think we are giving too much weight to a term that the source thought fanciful enough to quote. From that source alone, I'd have suggested just writing "He died suddenly on August 28, 1861". But the body text says "At the end of August 1861, Mackenzie went into a coma[181] and died on August 28 following an apoplectic seizure.[12]" and that uses two sources, which to me is a bit suspicious. The source for the "apoplectic seizure" makes no mention of a coma, and "the end of august" is the same thing as "August 28". I recommend we don't synthesise a sequence of death from two sources. I can read p266-67 online and wish it said more about his illness (do previous pages say anything?). But it says "In the last week of August 1961, William Lyon Mackenzie entered a deep coma. He died on the twenty-eighth of the month, towards evening". Did the stroke, say, precede the coma, or did the coma end with it? Do we have any other source? Maybe in this confusion, it would be better just to give the date of his death. After all, falling unconscious just before death and/or having some kind of stroke or heart attack, is just a natural death, and not especially noteworthy. -- Colin°Talk 12:38, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, we have lots of biographies on Mackenzie to consult. Unfortunately, most biographies don't focus on his life post-1837, so information on his death is brief. Here's what I could gather:
 * Kilbourn, important Canadian biographer, says Mackenzie gets weaker, enters a deep coma "the last week of August" and died in the evening of Aug. 28.
 * Gates, who wrote the most detailed biography on Mackenzie's life post-1837, has one paragraph about his failing health and death. Says he refuses meds, gets weaker, and dies Aug. 28:
 * Sewell, most recent biographer and former Toronto politician, wrote one sentence about his death: "Mackenzie remained poor, his health slowly declined, and he died peacefully on August 28, 1861."
 * Gray, writing a biography on Mackenzie's, writes a half-paragraph on Mackenzie's death, saying he "lapsed into unconsciousness" spoke in Gaelic and died in the evening of Aug. 28.
 * Lindsay, Mackenzie's son-in-law and defender of Mackenzie's legacy, has half a paragraph about his death, saying Mackenzie refused meds, went in and out of consciousness (the longest he was unconscious was 30 hours) and died August 28.
 * My guess is I included the apoplectic information because it was the most detail I could find about his death. I am happy to re-write it, and would probably use Kilbourn as a source to talk about going into unconsciousness. Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 14:18, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I leave this to you and ; perhaps propose a rewrite that Colin can look at? (I still have to read the entire article, as I find time.). Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Two spots will need to be changed. Proposed rewrite of both sections is below. Pinging.
 * Proposed rewrite of lede (Paragraph 2, last sentence) His health deteriorated in 1861 until his death on August 28.
 * Proposed rewrite of the body (Later life and death, paragraph 2, sentence 2): "At the end of August 1861, Mackenzie went into a coma and died on August 28." (source to Kilbourn)
 * These rewrites remove the apoplectic seizure reference as the exact source of his death cannot be verified. Z1720 (talk) 16:31, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is fine. However, the preceding sentence "Mackenzie refused all medication as he became ill" is imo back to front. The reader does not, before this point, have an idea of failing health leading to death, so it all comes a bit sudden and we are told about medicines before illness. Do we know when his health began to fail, which would give an idea of the duration of his final decline? Is there any clue what the illness was, or whether something occurred at the start of it? -- Colin°Talk 17:34, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked at the sources again, and they say he either had an illness (which is not named) or his health deteriorated. This wording might be better: "In 1861 his health deteriorated and he refused to take medication. At the end of August, he went into a coma and died on August 28.(Source Kilbourn 265-267)" Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 18:26, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That'll do nicely. -- Colin°Talk 08:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

SG readthrough
Your prose is better than mine, so ignore as you wish. Nothing
 * Remember that Wikipedia articles may be mirrored with attribution, and that articles should be digestible to those readers even in the absence of wikilinks. Family Compact is not defined anywhere in the article and there is no context ... think of a reader who cannot click on that link to understand what it is.
 * Changed to "He was elected to the 10th Parliament of Upper Canada as a legislator from York and investigated Tory politicians and the governing aristocrats of Upper Canada, which he called the Family Compact."
 * Was he the one to dub that term, or did it pre-exist? (My apologies, I know little about Canada.) Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:34, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is actually a great question. Although there's evidence that the term "Family Compact" was used in the 1820s to refer to the Tory elite of Upper Canada, it was not well-known among the public. Mackenzie probably stole/reused this name in the 1830s and published the list of people he considered part of the Family Compact in the Colonial Advocate in 1833. This is the list historians use today to define who was part of this group. Z1720 (talk) 00:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This sentence in the third para of the lead seems to repeat some info from the first para ... better reconciliation of that content ? "His newspapers aligned with the Reform movement and he wrote editorials that criticised the Upper Canadian government and the Family Compact."
 * Changed to "His newspapers aligned with the Reform movement and his editorials criticised the Upper Canadian government and its officials." Since his editorials sometimes critisised Reformers, too.
 * Anglican church is not linked on first occurrence.
 * Remove easter egg link to fireboat and just name it, William Lyon Mackenzie (fireboat) ?? No reason to make readers who only read the lead click out to see what it was.
 * process. William Lyon Mackenzie Collegiate Institute --> process. The William Lyon Mackenzie Collegiate Institute ??
 * I don't know what you mean by this.
 * Asking if there should be a "The". Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Sources from the 1960s don't use "the", neither do school documents from their school board nor the wiki-article. I don't think it gets a preposition. Z1720 (talk) 00:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Early life
 * His grandfathers were part of Clan Mackenzie ... confusing ... when I see plural grandfathers, I think maternal and paternal ... both were Mackenzies?
 * Yes, verified by Kilbourn. Changed to "Both of his grandfathers..."
 * wikilink bursary
 * He was a founding member of a club for scientific discussion called the Dundee Rational Institution. --> prefer to avoid "called the" (personal preference?) ... He was a founding member of the Dundee Rational Institution, a club for scientific discussion.
 * received the profits from selling drugs --> pharmaceutical drugs ???
 * Yes, clarified in article.
 * Why quotes? In 1820, he wrote for the York Observer under the pseudonym "Mercator".
 * I think that's how it was presented in the source, I removed quotes.
 * Colonial Advocate
 * Specify what this is so readers don't have to click out ... In May 1824, he sold his store and bought a printing press to create the Colonial Advocate, a weekly political journal.
 * Changed to "to create the Colonial Advocate, a political newspaper." Sources indicate it was a newspaper, not a journal, and Mackenzie struggled to publish the paper on a consistent schedule, so best to leave out any time-descriptors.
 * Then? Much later?  Year?  Lieutenant-Governor Peregrine Maitland ordered the capsule's removal ...
 * Kilbourn says it was sometime during the monument's construction that Maitland ordered the removal. I re-ordered the Raible source from my library, as I don't have an electronic copy, so I will wait until that arrives before I give an update.
 * ✅ Just re-borrowed the book from my library. The source says a few days later, so I changed the article to reflect that. Z1720 (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * and publishing a fictitious meeting where contributors selected Patrick Swift as the new editor. Mackenzie continued to publish the Colonial Advocate under the Swift alias. ... but later ... In the spring of 1824, Mackenzie published articles in the Colonial Advocate under the Swift pseudonym ... get the fact that he was Swift, pseudonym, up at the first mention ... it's not entirely clear.
 * Changed to, "Mackenzie retaliated by pretending to retire from the paper on May 4, 1826, and publishing a fictitious meeting where contributors selected Patrick Swift as the new editor. Mackenzie used the Swift alias to continue publishing the Colonial Advocate."
 * Reform member
 * the appointment process of election returning officers. ... what is an "election returning officer"?
 * The person who runs an election. Changed to "He also chaired a committee that evaluated the appointment process of the officials who administered elections in Upper Canada."
 * Switch in tense ... looked at ... investigating ... He was a member of committees that looked at the banking and currency process of Upper Canada, the condition of roads and investigating the Church of England's power.
 * Changed "investigating" to "the investigation"
 * the church-state connection. ... my understanding of WP:ENDASH (could be wrong) is that church TO state implies an ENDASH rather than hyphen is needed ... don't take my word for it, I suggest asking User:Tony1.
 * I think you are correct, as the dash replaces the word "and", per MOS:ENBETWEEN. Changed
 * and called the legislature a "sycophantic office". ... see MOS:QUOTEPOV ... this is new territory for me, unsure if it should be unquoted.
 * It's the direct quote from Mackenzie, and sycophantic isn't a common descriptor, so I'll keep it quoted for now.
 * I can't decipher what this "assumed" is about ... a Tory who received 23 votes and a moderate Reformer (who assumed Mackenzie was barred from becoming a legislator)
 * Changed to "(who assumed Mackenzie's expulsion barred him from becoming a legislator)"
 * Upper Canada politics
 * The legislature reversed Mackenzie's previous expulsions, ... The legislature reversed its previous expulsions of Mackenzie ??
 * Yes it did, but I am struggling to find the exact quote from Kilbourn, and I don't think this is terribly important so I took it out.
 * No name for this paper? Mackenzie printed his investigation in a newspaper he created that summer in the Niagara peninsula.
 * Mackenzie was very upset over this loss, ... very upset = upset, redundant, or use a stronger word ... but "weeping in ... " explains it.
 * Upper Canada Rebellion
 * Orange Order members ... same problem as above re Family Compact ... needs some explanation here without forcing the reader to click out.
 * Changed Orange Order to "Family Compact supporters" as their membership in the Orange Order is not important.
 * Mackenzie grew increasingly erratic and spent the evening punishing families of leading Tories. ... "punishing" ... how ?
 * Added "by burning down their houses and trying to force the Upper Canada Postmaster's wife to cook meals for his rebellion."
 * Rensselaer Van Rensselaer ... link ?
 * He doesn't have a wikipage, and I'm unsure if he's notable enough for one.
 * I don't know what this means ... and Mackenzie proclaimed the State of Upper Canada on the island
 * He tried creating a new country called the State of Upper Canada, kind of like the American Proclamation on July 4. Added, "Mackenzie proclaimed the State of Upper Canada on the island, declaring Upper Canada's separation from the British Empire and himself appointed chairman of its new government."
 * He was released on $5000 (equivalent to $120,547 in 2019 ... second number has commas, why doesn't first ($5,000) ... at this point, should we mention these are US $, since it is the first time US currency is mentioned ?
 * I added the comma. I don't think we need to mention US $ because Mackenzie is in the US at this time, getting bailed out from an American jail, so readers will assume it's American currency. Canada was also using £ and the switch in symbols indicates the switch in currency, and most readers assume American currency when they see $ (as opposed to Canadian or Australian currency). Explaining a currency switch might be overkill.
 * Years in the US
 * Caroline affair ... same issue as Orange Order and Family Compact ... give a brief parenthetical so reader does not have to click out.
 * Added, "Britain and the United States were at war because the British destroyed an American ship in the Caroline affair"
 * Why the shift towards Irish all of a sudden? He wrote a biography of 500 Irish patriots entitled, The Sons of the Emerald Isle;
 * Added information about his goal with the series from Gates
 * Return to Canada
 * Some (brief) explanation of what changed ?? The Canadian Legislature pardoned Mackenzie for the Upper Canada Rebellion in 1849 and allowed him to return.
 * Added "Lord Elgin, the Governor-General of the Province of Canada, was concerned that sympathisers of an independent Ireland would cause Canadians to become disloyal to the British monarch and unrest in the colony. He hoped that pardoning participants in the 1837 rebellions would increase Canadian loyalty to Britain. He introduced a general amnesty bill to the Canadian Legislature in 1849, which allowed Mackenzie to return to Canada."
 * Any wikilinks for these people? opposed the MacNab-Morin coalition government ...against the Macdonald-Cartier Administration ... the Brown-Dorion Administration,
 * I hoped the administrations would have wikilinks, but they don't. All the names have been wikilinked except Brown, who is George Brown and wikilinked earlier in the article.
 * Later life and death
 * Return to Canada
 * Some (brief) explanation of what changed ?? The Canadian Legislature pardoned Mackenzie for the Upper Canada Rebellion in 1849 and allowed him to return.
 * Added "Lord Elgin, the Governor-General of the Province of Canada, was concerned that sympathisers of an independent Ireland would cause Canadians to become disloyal to the British monarch and unrest in the colony. He hoped that pardoning participants in the 1837 rebellions would increase Canadian loyalty to Britain. He introduced a general amnesty bill to the Canadian Legislature in 1849, which allowed Mackenzie to return to Canada."
 * Any wikilinks for these people? opposed the MacNab-Morin coalition government ...against the Macdonald-Cartier Administration ... the Brown-Dorion Administration,
 * I hoped the administrations would have wikilinks, but they don't. All the names have been wikilinked except Brown, who is George Brown and wikilinked earlier in the article.
 * Later life and death
 * Writing style
 * Historian Lillian F. Gates struggled to comprehend The Life and Times of Martin Van Buren because he did not describe events chronologically ... he=Mackenzie.
 * unconcerned with conventional storytelling techniques or "a sense of order",[189] while Charles Lindsey described the book as disregarding the order of the stories. ... while= and since, same thing?
 * I don't think that works grammatically.
 * I misinterpreted this comment, and you are right. Changed. Z1720 (talk) 00:55, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Political philosophy
 * Mackenzie was never the lead advocate on an issue and promoted a wide range of policies. --> Mackenzie promoted a wide range of policies but was never the lead advocate on any issue.
 * He also changed his stance on policies
 * Legacy
 * Nothing
 * Legacy
 * Nothing
 * Nothing


 * Overall impressions
 * Wikiinking ... overall, because I am unfamiliar with Canada, there were many times where I was unsure if a wikilink was missing or needed ... read through with an eye towards that?
 * I've had some non-Canadians read the prose, and I will read it again to check for Canadian-isms and jargon.
 * Hi, I did a copy-edit of the entire article for Canadianisms and changed wikilinked and/or defined them in the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Very fine work, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:42, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Attribution, overall, again not being Canadian, there were many times where I was unclear if opinions needed attribution .. these are some samples, but there is much more ... read through to review for that ? He also printed information after promising his sources that he would not. ...  He constantly disagreed with the province's administration and refused to compromise ... Mackenzie chose his political positions impulsively and replaced rational arguments with energetic actions. ... current scholars regard him as "an ideologue ranting against the Family Compact" (who?) ... His term as mayor was overshadowed by a desire to reform government institutions instead of focusing on the problems of the city.
 * Previous versions of the "Views" and "Legacy" sections had too much "X scholar says Y" and I removed the names of scholars as much as possible. Some opinions could be attributed to 10+ people, like disagreeing with the government and refusing to compromise, but others might need attribution. I assumed that readers would attribute the opinions to the author named in the footnote.
 * In regards to "current scholars": Sewell, the source where this quote comes from, does not name these scholars. Gates also has a similar quote from non-descript scholars, which is why I included this POV. I did a minor copy-edit which I hope clarifies this, but let me know if more changes are needed. Z1720 (talk) 01:29, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Education v writing style; by the time I got down to the Writing style section, I was becoming frustrated at having no sense of how he was educated. When I read of his disorganized writing style, that reinforced my wondering what kind of education he had and where.
 * In the "Early life" section there's mention of a parish school, and we have some info about his apprenticeships. There used to be a mention to a "Mr Adie’s school" but only the Biographi source verified that and I do not know what that refers to. My general impression is his formal education was very limited and he was instead self-taught in a lot of ways, but I will need to verify this in the sources.
 * I checked for additional info on his education, but there wasn't anything to add. If you know what a "Mr. Adie's school" is, that could be added, but he just did not receive much of a formal education. Z1720 (talk) 20:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Encyclopedia Britannica has different birthcity ... https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Lyon-Mackenzie ... also note their words "radical" and "extreme". Economic depression mentioned. Symbol of Canadian radicalism.  Overall, the impression that Britannica gives me is that he was quite radical, and I am not sure that comes across in this article, so just be sure that you have comprehensively reflected all sources.
 * EB lists Springfield as the birthplace. Gates says Mackenzie was born in Springfield, a suburb of Dundee. Kilbourn says he was born near Dundee. Sewell says born in Dundee, biographi says "Springfield, Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland," and Lindsay says "Springfield, Dundee, Scotland". I used to have Springfield and Dundee listed as birthplaces, but Springfield was removed in a recommendation of a previous reader. Thoughts on what we should put?
 * If sources disagree, you can just present the most likely in text, but clarify sources disagree via footnote. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:38, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have replaced the reference with a note, and cited five sources who each describe his birthplace differently. Z1720 (talk) 00:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * For "radical" and "extreme": radical refers to the two wings of the Reform party: the radical wing (led by Mackenzie) and the moderate wing (led by Rolph and the Baldwins). I will find a good source to cite when describing his placement as a wing of the party. I don't think other sources describe his wing of the party as "extreme" so I will refrain from using that descriptor as a bad POV.

Thanks for reading this SG. It took a while but I responded to all the comments. Some areas might require additional input above. I think this was an excellent "test run" of comments I can expect at the FAC, so I was glad I could spend the day fixing up the article. I hope you can read through it again and give additional feedback when you have time. Z1720 (talk) 21:40, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I left just a few responses above, but I think you're in good shape here! Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:38, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Respondes above. Z1720 (talk) 00:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Buidhe

 * At the beginning, it says his mother is a Presbyterian but not whether she belonged to Church of Scotland or one of the smaller Protestant churches in Scotland. This should be more clear.
 * Kilbourn says his mother was a Calvinist, and Mackenzie learned Presbyterian catechism. Lindsey, Mackenzie's son-in-law, says Mackenzie was "A Calvinist in religion, proclaiming his belief in the Westminster Confession of Faith." . I am not sure if that means he was part of the Chruch of Scotland or not. I think Raible lists the church Mackenzie paid a fine to in order to get his illegitimate son baptised, but I don't have an electronic copy of his book so I'll check it out from the library and get back to you. Z1720 (talk) 15:55, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi I have the Raible book, and some information for you. Mackenzie was part of a Presbyterian church and participated in a kirk to get his illegitimate son baptised. Unfortunately, I think this is all I can learn about their religion. Z1720 (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Well if the source doesn't say, I suppose there's nothing you can do. However, I'm surprised that this isn't specified in any source. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  19:58, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think Canadian historians thought there was a distinction between Presbyterian churches in Scotland. Also, historians devote little time to his pre-Upper Canada years (usually a book chapter or less of information). Z1720 (talk) 20:36, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * What was his first language? I may be biased but I do think it's worth a mention. (It is linked to religion, the especially severe forms of Presbyterianism were/are mostly popular in historically Gaelic speaking areas.)
 * Sources don't verify Mackenzie's first language. Gray says Mackenzie spoke in Gaelic while delirious on his deathbed, which was the "tongue of his youth". Lindsey says his mom spoke Gaelic, but only taught Mackenzie a few words. Z1720 (talk) 15:55, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Article size is good, I don't see any major prose issues.
 * Please ping me if/when this goes to FAC. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  07:21, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I replied above to the religion and language questions. I hope to bring this to FAC in mid-April and I'll notify you when I nominate this. Z1720 (talk) 15:55, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

AustralianRupert
G'day, just a quick drive-by, sorry, but I wonder if the legacy should mention that the Mackenzie–Papineau Battalion (from the Spanish Civil War) was named after him? Thanks for your efforts with the article. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 12:19, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I did not know about this! I added the following sentence to the article: "In the Spanish Civil War Canadian volunteers formed the Mackenzie–Papineau Battalion, naming it after Mackenzie and the leader of the Lower Canada Rebellion, Louis-Joseph Papineau." Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 14:09, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * G'day, yes that looks fine to me. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 02:44, 27 March 2021 (UTC)