Wikipedia:Peer review/Wytheville Raid/archive1

Wytheville Raid
I've listed this article for peer review because it is a new article, and I would like to make sure it is up to Good Article quality. I hope to add a few scenic photos of the area in October.

Thanks, TwoScars (talk) 12:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Just a few comments at the moment. I'll come back to this review over the weekend...
 * Thank you so much for taking the time to review this. I will have more time to respond this weekend. TwoScars (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I suggest you rejig the lead. Currently, the first sentence tells the reader when the raid was before it tells them what it was: compare the lead for Jameson raid or Siege of Mafeking or Battle of Cambrai (1917).
 * Excellent point. I will work on it. TwoScars (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Intro now redone. Starts as "The Wytheville Raid was an attack by an undersized Union brigade on a strategic Confederate town during the American Civil War. The raid took place on July 18, 1863."  Other changes too. TwoScars (talk) 16:53, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * In the first paragraph: "defended a small town against a small Union brigade": can this be reworked so "small" is not repeated?
 * Fixed in the intro redo. TwoScars (talk) 16:53, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Third paragraph of the lead: "Additional officers and enlisted men were killed, wounded, or missing. Approximately 300 horses died, or became unable to travel, during the raid and retreat." Why does the number of soldiers killed or injured not make the lead when the number of horses killed does?
 * Good point. I will work on that.  The number of horses was not disputed, while the number of casualties was. TwoScars (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed in the intro redo. "The Union after action report listed a total of 86 men killed, wounded, missing, or taken prisoner during the entire expedition—although Confederate leadership believed the casualties were much higher. Approximately 300 horses...." TwoScars (talk) 16:53, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Comments
 * Nikkimaria - thank you for the look over. TwoScars (talk) 21:24, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Quotes should be cited in the lead even if repeated later
 * Added footnote for quotes in lead. TwoScars (talk) 21:45, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Why not use coord for coordinates?
 * Added it. Something new for me. TwoScars (talk) 21:43, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * What is the source of the data used to create File:Wytheville_Raid_July_1863.JPG? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I made the map using Microsoft Excel. I started with a portion of an 1863 county map for Virginia and West Virginia created by William H. Gamble and S. Augustus Mitchell.  The entire map can be found in the Library of Congress Gamble-MitchellMap, and shows Virginia and West Virginia.  Gamble and Mitchell have the roads and cities that I need, but the map is too busy with numerous other items.  Next, I used descriptions of the route as described by Major John J. Hoffman in his July 27 report (one of the references).  I also checked the accounts in Private Sutton's book.  Johnson's book has a hand-drawn map that uses current roads and only shows the Virginia portion.  Franklin's two reports also describe some of the incidents that happened along the way.  All are listed in the references.  TwoScars (talk) 21:24, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I would suggest adding a summary of this to the image description page also - if you end up going past GAN, and even maybe there, someone will likely ask again. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Updated image description—Gamble & Mitchell, Hoffman, Sutton, Franklin, Johnson, etc.... Included link to Hoffman's report and one of Franklin's reports. TwoScars (talk) 16:27, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The infobox should also include the date of the battle. Display name 99 (talk) 17:14, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for looking over the article. I have added the date to the Infobox.  Question about the image sizes—I can't read the maps under Raid and Confederates now that you changed them.  I have to click them to see them.  Is that OK for a Wikipedia article?  Also on the map under Union brigade, it is helpful if the bottom part of the map reaches into the Walker Mountain paragraph.  Does it reach that part on your screen?  It does not on my Windows and MacBook screens.  If you feel that the maps are big enough for you to use them to assist with understanding the text, then we have the correct sizes—I just want to make sure.  Thanks again TwoScars (talk) 20:06, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to help. I increased the sizes of the images under "Raid" and "Confederates" to 370px each, which is still less than where they were before. I undid my revision to the "Raleigh" section. Display name 99 (talk) 23:15, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks—much better for my old eyes. I would like to replace the picture of Hoffman with a picture of Powell, but have not been able to find any that are usable.  Any thoughts on the text? TwoScars (talk) 12:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments from Iazyges Perhaps for the map in the Raleigh section, a legend should be added, the only shown distance is that wytheville and dublin are 25 miles from each other. Other than that, very good article Iazyges (talk) 19:48, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking out the article. A traditional legend or more like the Wytheville-Dublin distance notation? TwoScars (talk) 12:19, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I was thinking a traditional legend, while the distance notation currently used on those works for those two, putting a reference for what length of the map is equivalent to what amount of actual land would be more beneficial.
 * Redid the map. Legend and mileages for significant points. TwoScars (talk) 19:13, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

"undersized" Should provide the number of troops there were, and how many there should have been for it to have been full sized. "Toland's brigade consisted of cavalry and mounted infantry." I could be wrong but those sound like the same thing. "hastily made preparations before the brigade's arrival. " What kind of preparations? Stocking up food? Moving into positions? Noticing a severe lack of consistency with horsemen, mounted soldiers and cavalry. Picking one would be preferable. "homes and businesses." perhaps it should be "Their homes and businesses". "One Union soldier described the street that led into Wytheville as "an avenue of death".[1]" Do we know who? "the Union commander, Colonel John T. Toland" an article about him would be good, after all there is a picture of him on wikimedia. "Approximately 300 horses died (including an estimated 80 killed on the streets of Wytheville), or became unable to travel, during the raid and retreat." How many horses on each side? Unable to travel is a weird way of putting it, perhaps, wounded or else crippled? " Despite significant losses, the Union brigade was eventually able to secure the town." Perhaps able to secure if for a short time, considering how they were driven out within a day? "and a salt mine." Woah woah woah, where did that come from? the rest of the three things are a good restatement of what was at stake that i think is good for the article, but the salt mine wasn't mentioned before. "After the conflict, Union infantry leaders were critical of the Union cavalry's performance, and men from the cavalry were critical of the infantry leadership's tactics." Super vague. "The mine was the source for a significant portion, estimated to be about one third, of the lead used by the Confederacy to produce bullets for its armies.[8]" That should most definitely be in the lead section. "Supplies for the Confederate Army were often stored nearby." Needs expansion. "Thus, the pro-Confederate town had a strategic significance during the American Civil War—and was a target throughout the war." The "Pro-confederate" part should perhaps be removed, it adds nothing. "The army outpost was at the community named Saltville, which was the home of a salt mine" ok now it introduces the salt mine, even though the lead section talks about it as if it was part of Wytheville. "Salt ... and was also used (at the time) to preserve meat." Perhaps it could be made into salt is used to preserve meat, which was more crucial before the invention of refrigeration. "Salt was not widely available during the Civil War, and eight Confederate states used salt from this mine." Only eight? Which ones? Seems odd to mention this without expanding on it. "The depot was renamed Dublin Depot a short time before the beginning of the Civil War, but is often labeled New Bern on maps from the early 1860s.[16]" Why was it renamed? "Their secret orders," What makes them secret? Did only the officers know? Needs elaboration. "but did not always have the Asian-style baggy pants with open jackets typical of zouave units.[22]" Elaborate. "a two-company detachment from the 1st West Virginia Cavalry joined the brigade and brought supplies" What kind? " The detachment's leader, Captain George W. Gilmore, also brought orders from General E. P. Scammon that clarified the brigade's mission." Wait so were the instructions actually secret? or were the men confused? "Thus, the brigade continued with 441 mounted infantry men, 298 men from the 2nd West Virginia Cavalry, and 79 men from the 1st West Virginia Cavalry.[33]" Perhaps the number of those who were sent home? "A small force led by Lieutenant Jeremiah Davidson surprised the rebels, capturing them without firing a shot" How small? " was sent forward to the top of Tug Ridge." What is tug ridge? Obviously some kind of hill, but no backstory. "Weapons and supplies were destroyed." What kind? How much? "150 mounted Confederate soldiers" Again with the inconsistency. How many3? "(Ironically, the company that ran the mine was named Union Lead Mining Company.)" I really dont think this should be here, but that may be personal bias against puns. " the town of Wytheville of the approaching Union horsemen." inconsistent with cavalry. "Bowyer's after action report, led the panicked locals" Needs elaboration. "The depot is about 0.75 miles (1.2 km) south of the town." Is or was? does anyone know if it is still there? "Colonel Powell requested that Colonel Toland have the infantry dismount" Ok now i get it, mounted infantry ride horses but fight on foot, that could better be explained in the lead section where both are mentioned. "Powell also suggested that if the cavalry were to charge, the men should be deployed “to right and left” instead of a straight ahead charge.[55] Powell’s suggestion was "characteristically disregarded" and strongly rejected.[Note 11]" By who? Also redundant. End of constructive criticism. Iazyges (talk) 03:43, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment by Iazyges
 * Thank you for spending more time with the article—this is what I needed. It will take me a while to address them.  I will elaborate on mounted infantry, cavalry, and brigade size under the Union brigade section.  "Union horseman" was simply my way of not saying "Union brigade" over and over again.  The entire brigade was mounted, although the infantry did not fight while mounted. The railroad depot is now part of the Wytheville Historic District.  Private Sutton of the 2nd West Virginia Cavalry Company H described the road as "an avenue of death".  Not only were the orders in secret, they were in code—and Franklin could not decipher them (after Toland was killed).  Some of your questions are answered in the notes section.  For example: note 21 covers some of the bickering between the Union cavalry and infantry.  Should some of the notes be moved to the main part of the article?  Definitely will elaborate on Tug Ridge and the events there.  Hopefully this helps one see why I was putting so much importance on the maps.  It will probably take me about 10 days to address all of your comments, and I certainly appreciate them.  Thanks TwoScars (talk) 12:54, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Your very welcome, I was honestly worried it would seem like i was insulting you. Iazyges (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Undersized brigade and correct size addressed under Union brigade in second paragraph. TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Mounted infantry discussed under Union brigade in third paragraph, including differences from cavalry. TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "hastily made preparations" —-— added "While many in the community fled south or hid in their homes, a force of about 120 civilians (including home guard) volunteered to defend their town." TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Noticing a severe lack of consistency with horsemen, mounted soldiers and cavalry.—— Keeping the term horsemen to avoid using the term "brigade" so often.  The fact that the entire brigade was mounted, and differences between the mounted infantry and cavalry, are discussed under Union brigade.  The term horsemen is used under the Wytheville subsection to describe when Wytheville became aware of the approaching brigade.  It is doubtful the the town knew it was part mounted-infantry and part cavalry—all they knew was that a large force of men on horses was headed in their direction. TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "homes and businesses." perhaps it should be "Their homes and businesses". ——made that change. TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "One Union soldier described the street that led into Wytheville as "an avenue of death".[1]" Do we know who?—— Soldier (Sutton from cavalry) identified under Charge subsection. TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "the Union commander, Colonel John T. Toland" an article about him would be good, after all there is a picture of him on wikimedia.—— Some day I might add write an article about him, but the 1st West Virginia Cavalry and improving William Henry Powell have higher priorities. TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Approximately 300 horses died (including an estimated 80 killed on the streets of Wytheville), or became unable to travel, during the raid and retreat." How many horses on each side? Unable to travel is a weird way of putting it, perhaps, wounded or else crippled?—— I have worked on that.  Hopefully it reads better know.  The Confederates had no reports on their losses of horses.  They probably lost none in Wytheville, but had some losses confronting the Union brigade to and from Wytheville. TwoScars (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Despite significant losses, the Union brigade was eventually able to secure the town." Perhaps able to secure if for a short time, considering how they were driven out within a day? ——The Union brigade was not driven out. They drove away the Confederate army and captured 86 prisoners, who were mostly locals.  It was determined that it was impractical to continue, and the brigade was fearful of being trapped in the town.  This is discussed under the section Return march, including the first Note in the first paragraph. TwoScars (talk) 21:29, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "and a salt mine." Woah woah woah, where did that come from? the rest of the three things are a good restatement of what was at stake that i think is good for the article, but the salt mine wasn't mentioned before.——Good catch! That's why Peer Reviews are so valuable.  I added the sentence "The railroad also served an important salt works located in an adjacent county." in the first paragraph of the intro.  As you noticed, the salt mine is also discussed in the Wythe County section and the Saltville subsection. TwoScars (talk) 16:34, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "After the conflict, Union infantry leaders were critical of the Union cavalry's performance, and men from the cavalry were critical of the infantry leadership's tactics." Super vague.——Discussed in the Aftermath section in the first paragraph. The second Note in that paragraph lists some of the complaints from cavalry and infantry.  The first paragraph under Raid discusses the disagreement between Toland and Powell. A note at the end of the paragraph discusses more opinions on the disagreement between the two colonels, and explains why men from the 2nd West Virginia Cavalry were hesitant to charge blindly into a town.  Under the Colonels shot subsection, a Note quotes some of the things infantry leaders said about the cavalry. TwoScars (talk) 16:34, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "The mine was the source for a significant portion, estimated to be about one third, of the lead used by the Confederacy to produce bullets for its armies.[8]" That should most definitely be in the lead section.——It is now. TwoScars (talk) 16:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Supplies for the Confederate Army were often stored nearby." Needs expansion.——Changed that to "The railroad had a station located about 0.75 miles (1.2 km) south of the center of Wytheville. Ammunition and weapons for the Confederate Army were often stored there." That is what the source said, although I wonder why the locals did not get their weapons from the depot. TwoScars (talk) 16:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Thus, the pro-Confederate town had a strategic significance during the American Civil War—and was a target throughout the war." The "Pro-confederate" part should perhaps be removed, it adds nothing.——Dropped "Pro-Confederate". TwoScars (talk) 16:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "The army outpost was at the community named Saltville, which was the home of a salt mine" ok now it introduces the salt mine, even though the lead section talks about it as if it was part of Wytheville. "Salt ... and was also used (at the time) to preserve meat." Perhaps it could be made into salt is used to preserve meat, which was more crucial before the invention of refrigeration. "Salt was not widely available during the Civil War, and eight Confederate states used salt from this mine." Only eight? Which ones? Seems odd to mention this without expanding on it.——The lead section now says "The railroad also served an important salt works located in an adjacent county." Salt is discussed more in the Wythe County section, and there is an internet link to the source.  The eight states are now listed in a Note under Wythe County.  The Confederacy had only 11 states if you do not count Kentucky and Maryland, so eight states is a lot. TwoScars (talk) 16:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "The depot was renamed Dublin Depot a short time before the beginning of the Civil War, but is often labeled New Bern on maps from the early 1860s.[16]" Why was it renamed?——That is now explained in the last paragraph of Wythe County. The main point here is that sometimes people cannot find the Dublin Depot on a map because it is labeled as New Bern. TwoScars (talk) 16:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Their secret orders," What makes them secret? Did only the officers know? Needs elaboration. "but did not always have the Asian-style baggy pants with open jackets typical of zouave units.[22]" Elaborate. "a two-company detachment from the 1st West Virginia Cavalry joined the brigade and brought supplies" What kind? " The detachment's leader, Captain George W. Gilmore, also brought orders from General E. P. Scammon that clarified the brigade's mission." Wait so were the instructions actually secret? or were the men confused?——Reworded and added two sentences. Scammon's orders to Toland were in code.  Very few knew the exact plans.  After Wytheville, Franklin did not know what to do.  Also added a sentence about Gilmore bringing food for the men and horses. TwoScars (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Thus, the brigade continued with 441 mounted infantry men, 298 men from the 2nd West Virginia Cavalry, and 79 men from the 1st West Virginia Cavalry.[33]" Perhaps the number of those who were sent home?——added that to the Note about Company C. TwoScars (talk) 17:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "A small force led by Lieutenant Jeremiah Davidson surprised the rebels, capturing them without firing a shot" How small?——Changed to "a portion of the three companies" since the source does not say how many. TwoScars (talk) 17:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What is tug ridge? Obviously some kind of hill, but no backstory. ——Added "Tug Ridge is located on the north side of Abb's Valley, near the Virgina border with West Virginia. During the war, Abb's Valley was an important mountain pass monitored by rebel troops." TwoScars (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Weapons and supplies were destroyed." What kind? How much?——Added more detail. Neither source mentions what type of "arms" were captured.  They were probably muskets, but we do not have proof.  One count was 700 arms (which I added to the article), the other source said 500 (already in the Note). TwoScars (talk) 19:22, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "150 mounted Confederate soldiers" Again with the inconsistency. How many3?——Reworded to use the term "cavalry" instead of mounted Confederate soldiers. 150 men. TwoScars (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "(Ironically, the company that ran the mine was named Union Lead Mining Company.)" I really dont think this should be here, but that may be personal bias against puns. "——It is in parentheses, and I believe some people would be critical of leaving that out. If the Good Article reviewers want it out, I will take it out then. TwoScars (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * " the town of Wytheville of the approaching Union horsemen." inconsistent with cavalry.——Already covered. The approaching brigade was infantry and cavalry, all on horses, and it is doubtful that the town new if they were cavalry or mounted infantry or both. TwoScars (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Bowyer's after action report, led the panicked locals" Needs elaboration.——Added a few more sentences describing the panic of the community and why Kent was selected to lead. TwoScars (talk) 20:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "The depot is about 0.75 miles (1.2 km) south of the town." Is or was? does anyone know if it is still there?——Changed the verb to "was". I believe the building is still standing, but was rebuilt by Norfolk & Western.  The railroad line is still used, but the railroad is no longer the Virginia & Tennessee, and I have found no evidence of passenger service available there. TwoScars (talk) 20:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Colonel Powell requested that Colonel Toland have the infantry dismount" Ok now i get it, mounted infantry ride horses but fight on foot, that could better be explained in the lead section where both are mentioned. "Powell also suggested that if the cavalry were to charge, the men should be deployed “to right and left” instead of a straight ahead charge.[55] Powell’s suggestion was "characteristically disregarded" and strongly rejected.[Note 11]" By who? Also redundant. ——Added to the Union brigade section that explains infantry vs. mounted infantry vs. cavalry. Also reworded the discussion about Toland and Powell's disagreement.  Need the "redundancy" since Toland had a pattern of disregarding Powell's suggestions, and told Powell in strong "unnecessary language" to blindly send the cavalry in columns down the street. TwoScars (talk) 20:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. (I didn't do a lot.) Feel free to bring this to Milhist's A-class review after GAN. - Dank (push to talk) 20:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Query: G'day, just wondering if you would like this review to be archived, given that it appears to have been several months with no further comments? The bot that usually does most of the work is currently down, but I believe I can do the work manually. Please let me know your intentions. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 05:15, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes—please archive. Thanks TwoScars (talk) 18:24, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No worries, done now. Thanks for your efforts with the article. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 03:46, 5 January 2017 (UTC)