Wikipedia:Peer review/Yogo sapphire/archive2

Yogo sapphire
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because Yogo sapphires are quintessentially representative of Montana and I want the article to be as good as it can be.
 * Previous peer review

Thanks, Pumpkin Sky   talk  23:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments from Grapple X
 * Not sure the second paragraph of the lead should be up so high; I'd probably bump it down, unchanged, to third or fourth. To me, information about the gemstones themselves should be further to the forefront than information about their provenance. --DONE, to 3rd para

--PROBLEM/Question: Looks nice, but that's not the order it comes in the article, will that become an issue at FA? --MTBW, agree WITH MTBW, PSKY
 * "It became highly profitable English Mine, which flourished from 1899 until the late 1920s and, under a series of changing owners, periodically operated into the early 21st century." -> I'd stick a "the" in there before "English Mine", perhaps even going as far as to phrase it as "It became known as the English Mine, which continued highly profitably from 1899..." --DONE, 'the'
 * "At the 1900 Exposition Universelle in Paris, Yogo sapphires received a silver medal for color and clarity." -> Both here, and when the subject is mentioned again, it would be good to clarify whether this means they placed second in a field of other gems being judged on these qualities, or if they were independently graded regardless of other gems. --DONE
 * Is there an etymology for why "yogo" may mean "going over the hill" (as in, is it still Blackfoot we're talking about)? --NOT REALLY, JUST VARIOUS REPORTS
 * Might be worth explaining what "color zoning" is. It's only a minor aside so it shouldn't interrupt flow really. --DONE VIA A ENTRY
 * File:PurpleY6Br.jpg and File:Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg are both aligned vertically with each other very close together; perhaps moving one to be left-aligned would create a little variance.
 * DONE--MTBW
 * Just checking now, but there are a few duplicate links in there that'll need sorting out. User:Ucucha/duplinks should prove useful. There are also instances when a term is linked after several instances of it occurring unlinked; "dike" is an example of this. --DONE WITH SCRIPT. IF YOU FIND MORE, BE SPECIFIC
 * "Among other local residents was a young cowhand hired by Hoover, who became the western painter C.M. Russell" -> This needs rephrasing, as it is it makes it seem like the cowhand assumed Russell's identity (Batman-style). Not sure how I'd rephrase it without rewriting the whole sentence and perhaps the following one, though. --DONE VIA REPHRASE
 * Some of the information in the "early mining" section seems a bit coatrack-ish. I'm not sure we need too much about residents of a mining town when the town itself is already an aside to the main subject.
 * We have no separate articles on Utica or the area; and the colorful characters are pretty much linked to the same people who started the Yogo mining. May be a place for a spinoff later, but is not replicated anywhere else on wikipedia.  --MTBW
 * "They quickly recouped the purchase price by washing the tailings left behind by previous operators of the American Mine" -> Perhaps a little more explaining what washing tailings is/does. This is the end of the section so you don't need to worry too much about flow. --DONE VIA ADDING WIKI LINK
 * "Rockhounds" could probably do with a link to amateur geology. --DONE
 * "Baron organized German and Thai gemcutters and had success in marketing Yogos in America—the first time that occurred in 50 years." -> "the first such success in 50 years" --DONE
 * "becoming the 14th American company to work the Yogo dike" -> I would spell out "fourteenth" here; using numerals for numbers over ten is fine but in ordinals I've always found it jarring.
 * QUESTION: What does MOS advise?  We can go either way, but it's a pain to keep changing it.-- MTBW
 * A FA heavy told me that while it can go either way, 14th is the more common and preferred way. I'm sticking with that, 14th. PSKY
 * "The Thais had even purchased large quantities of naturally colorless Sri Lankan sapphires," -> I'd suggest changing "The Thais" to "Thai businesses" or "Thai traders" or something similar. --DONE
 * "most often reported as being 9 carats (1.8 g) in size, though it has also been described as 12 carats (2.4 g) and even 18 carats (3.6 g), though the latter number is the carat weight of the gold setting." -> The second "though" could probably be switched to "however". --DONE
 * That's all I saw looking over things. I haven't had a look at sources though, might check that out over the next few days. GRAPPLE   X  23:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Grapple, we appreciate your eyes on this piece. Montanabw (talk) 16:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments by Wehwalt:

Moved from the sandbox so I can recycle.


 * Lede
 * "on land once inhabited by the Piegan Blackfeet people" Is this phrase really justified in the lede sentence?
 * Something about the Blackfeet is, it's a big deal when discussing Montana history, doubly so because of promoter's claims about the name. --MTBW
 * You can't have a six paragraph lede. When I brought in one with five, they made me cut it to four. --DONE BY MTBW
 * Location
 * In view of the map, is quite so much directional information needed? I would cut the Lewistown information as least useful to the reader.
 * Lewistown is the only town that shows up on big maps, no one knows WTF Utica is without looking at the fine print of a big map, and Yogo City isn't on maps at all. --MTBW
 * Consider moving the information on Montana county changes to a footnote.
 * "within Judith Basin County" Hm, unless all these features are entirely within this county, consider cutting this phrase as perhaps not needed in view of the information already given and near in proximity.
 * Also, in the context of Montana, county is needed, this is basically east bumf--k (LOL)
 * Is there any chance of a higher-scale map?
 * I asked both Pesky and Fallschirmjaeger to make better maps, both said yes, both have failed to deliver. Pumpkin Sky   talk  22:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll look through my stuff and see who I've used in the past. Perhaps someone different you could try.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:25, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * User:MissMJ did a fine job with the maps in Canoe River train crash.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:36, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Uh, she hasn't made an edit since Oct 2011. Pumpkin Sky   talk  23:25, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Try Gage, on Commons. He helped me out with the Senate election article maps.
 * Mineralogy and Geology
 * Consider moving the blue one (my that's nice looking) to the top of the section. So the reader can look at it while hearing about it. --DONE BY PSKY
 * I would put the explanation (ease of cutting, etc.) first after saying they have advantages to gemcutter, with the technical details afterwards.
 * You lose me here. Could you do this in one diff and let us look at it? PSKY
 * "had a longer cooling time," I would say "cooled more slowly. --DONE BY PSKY
 * If Yogos are not alluvial, is there a term for what they are? (don't reply, just suggesting an inclusion). --DONE BY VSMITH
 * "Yogo dike" The link is not on the first usage, even of this section.
 * Lost here too. "Yogo dike" shouldn't be linked, no article; BUT in the leade there's "hard igneous dike" is that what you mean? PSKY
 * At least to my lay eyes, "mya" seems inconsistently capped. --DONE BY VSMITH
 * "near vertical" hyphen? -DONE BY PSKY
 * "compass direction or strike " consider consolidating with a pipe. --DONE BY PSKY
 * "possible at great depths: Yogos " Maybe put a "thus" in there instead of the colon? --put comma thus, PSKY
 * Although you've mentioned it in the lede, you've not yet said what the English/American Mines are in the body.
 * MTBW comments: It's in there, but sort of buried in the narrative of the history section.  Can you offer an idea of how to make it more prominent?
 * Montana sapphires
 * "Other than the Yogos, all other Montana sapphires come from alluvial deposits." That duplicates a bit from before. --CUT BY PSKY
 * Is it really necessary to tell us these places are in Montana, given the name of the section?
 * MTBW comments: Probably room for streamlined editing, if reassured that the FA reviewer won't then say, "better point out that these are also in Montana" :-P (LOL)
 * General comment: I don't know if you are locked into a format, but give consideration to starting the body with the history and what is presently the Montana sapphires section, perhaps rolling it in under "history and background" or some such.  Consider that it may attract many lay readers who want to know "about them" in the lay sense.
 * MTBW comments: I have thought about that, but I'm a history geek, so have that bias (grin); perhaps VSmith could tell us if that is inconsistent with other gem articles; I don't know if we ARE locked into a format to put the gemology stuff first.
 * The Yogo article doesn't readily compare with other "gemstone" articles as they cover the gem in general, whereas the Yogo article is about a specific occurrence/mining area. Seems natural to me to focus on the "what it is" (mineralogy & gemology) and "why is it unique" (geological details) before going into the history of the mining/marketing story. But, I guess perhaps the mineralogical and geological discussion could lead to "eye glaze/click elsewhere" syndrome -- and maybe going right into the history section might keep 'em reading longer?? Vsmith (talk) 01:41, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure the answer. I generally lean toward putting the basic facts (gemology) up front for people seeking basic info, and partly due to the length of the history section, but the history is interesting and colorful.  I can go either way.   Montanabw (talk) 17:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * " Other Montana sapphire mines were less successful because of the very low profit margin in sapphires that are not blue. Blue sapphires are extremely rare at Montana sites other than Yogo Gulch." It strikes me that these two sentences can be combined into one. --DONE, TAKE A LOOK, PSKY
 * I'll pick back up hopefully tomorrow or more likely Thursday.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Wehwalt, there is a need for a little copyediting and streamlining, I've been nibbling away at it, but on a small scale. Your suggestions to smooth things out are well-taken and I think we can keep tweaking on this.   Montanabw (talk) 17:17, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * No problem. OK, resuming:
 * History
 * " chased away" a bit informal. --DONE, PSKY
 * For the sake of continuity, you should explain why the 1878 prospecters were not, er, chased away. --TRIED, ONLY A FEW WHITES THERE IN 1868
 * "Though sapphires by weight " Right here, the article seems to make a 180 degree turn, for no obvious reading.  I was expecting the discovery of the sapphires to come back, early efforts to mine, etc.  There is a tendency for the narrative to wander in this article, and I'm not just talking about here.  If you are going to tell a history, tell it consecutively unless you have a very good reason not to.
 * Cut from there, highly condensed, and moved. --PSKY
 * The relevance of the second, third and fourth paragraphs of the introduction to the subject matter of the article seems minimal. Suggest delete.
 * It's quite interesting in that it shows the discoverer, Jake, was prominent enough to be in a painting by one of the most famous western painters of all time, as some other real local people. Trim maybe, but not delete. What does MTBW think? --PSKY
 * Local history huge and critical part of Yogo fame. The wild west romance was integral to most marketing efforts, they are high quality, but very small, so need something more to entice buyers -- otherwise, how can they compete with the Sri Lankan gems...  --MTBW
 * I trimmed some of the local history. PSKY
 * "The Yogo area also produced small amounts of gold, silver, copper, and iron." We already know about the gold, so this reads oddly.  You are telling us something we know already, and three things we don't.  Also, the bit about gold miners not being interested in gems:  As you haven't established gold mining past the early 1880s, and the funny blue stones weren't recognized as sapphires until 1894.  It is possible you are saying this is a reason for their disinterest, in which case it should probably go where you are discussing the discovery, as a reason why didn't figure it out earlier. --CUT, PSKY
 * "someone" seems awfully informal. Suggest the passive voice. --DONE, PSKY
 * " lived in Maine but was a friend of some local miners." Perhaps call it a variation, and say "that the schoolteacher was visiting from Maine" and omit the local miners.  That way you don't have to do the "still another". --DONE, PSKY
 * She or he wasn't visiting, Hobson alledgedly mailed them off. Can't exceed source.  --MTBW
 * "making the initial determination" Perhaps "surmised that the unusual blue stones were sapphires".  --DONE, PSKY
 * " and Hoover was credited as the discoverer of Yogo sapphires." Probably should be cut, really not needed. --HOW SO? IT SEEMS IMPORTANT, PSKY  Well, the whole subsection says it, along with the title.  The reader doesn't need it spoonfed. OH OKAY ;-)
 * Critically important; he's the man! --MTBW
 * " but floods so severely damaged the mines"  If only the English Mine is meant, I would change "mines" to "mine".  Also, I would move the date to just after "flood", thus "floods on July ..."--ALL MINES, CHANGED DATE LOC, PSKY
 * "Yogos were ultimately traced from the alluvium to their source.[31] " I would cut.  You really don't need an introduction here. --SEEMS CRUCIAL, OTHERWISE SOME WILL THINK THE MINES ARE IN THE ALLUVIAL??, PSKY  Why would they think that?  W
 * We can rephrase, but the unique thing is that they are not alluvial; though originally found there. Basically dumb luck they found the mother lode. -- MTBW
 * "In January 1977, Victor di Suvero and his firm Sapphire-Yogo Mines became next to tackle the mine" Appears to contradict previous sentence.


 * Will check and fix. --MTBW
 * No contradiction. The American Mine is the one mine, the dike is the either mother lode. PSKY
 * Did a rephrase that should clarify. -- MTBW
 * I think you should merge most of State Gemstone of Montana into the discovery section, where it fits chronologically. The fact that it is a state gemstone can be put someplace else.  Also, if you say one of two, you should mention what the other one is.
 * Good point, a lot of that is dupe anyway. Consider it done.--PSKY
 * "This issue appeared as a front-page story in the Wall Street Journal on August 29, 1984 in an article by Bill Richards entitled "Carats and Schticks: Sapphire Marketer Upsets The Gem Industry" I think it would be OK to mention that a story about Yogos appeared in the WSJ in 1984, but the rest should be consigned to references. -- DONE PSKY
 * "but ran out of funds before becoming successful and their option expired. " Delete "before becoming successful".  Redundant. -_DONE AND ASKED GAGE ON COMMONS- PSKY
 * "Citibank also had obtained a large stock of Yogos, reputedly worth $3.5 million, as a result of Intergem's collapse: 200,000 carats (40,000 g) of rough, 22,000 carats (4,400 g) of cut gems, and 2,000 pieces of jewelry. This " While this refers to "stock" and is thus correct, there are so many plural nouns between the two that it seems worth a rephrase. DONE PSKY
 * "staked six mining claims on the western portion of the Yogo dike" Is the number important? --DON'T SEE ANY HARM
 * "was the sole employee of the mine" consider "worked the mine alone" _-DONE
 * If any of the Smithsonian's Yogos are on display (if you know), it would be good to say so. Also, I imagine the reason gold as well as gems were donated was to create a piece of jewelry.  I would connect the dots. __DO NOT KNOW OF ANY AND DONE
 * "Simultaneously, their collateral with Citibank, which was their gem inventory, declined because the value of gems was declining; as a result, Citibank called in its loan. " I would say "the value of their collateral" --DONE PSKY
 * I'll give it one more look in the morning when I'm fresher.
 * " Montana with claims they were Yogos, while in Europe, Yogos were sold with claims " vary the phrasing.  Similar with "among all gems", which I submit in both cases is not really needed, gems don't compete for medals with people, after all. FIXED THE CLAIMS ONE BUT ON "among all gems" THAT WAS PUT IN BECAUSE PREVIOUSLY YOU SAID TO TELL IF IT WAS AMONG SAPPHIRES OR ALL TYPES OF GEMS SO I'M LOST HERE -- psky

That, in combination with various comments by email to Psky and Mtbw, should do it. Looking forward to reviewing at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:11, 29 May 2012 (UTC)