Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 September 23

September 23
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on September 23, 2008

Masonicinfo.com → List of Freemasons
The result of the debate was delete. WJBscribe (talk) 00:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC) As with the related Masonicinfo redir discussed below, I can think of no reason for this redirect to go somewhere a) not about the topic in question (which the article is not); and b) to a reference section of said article. The website itself doesn't meet WEB. MSJapan (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete - without any context other than simply having it as a Wikilink, this is about as close to WP:SPAM that you can get without posting it as an external link. This - and many of the others posted today - seem to be redirects in search of legitimate targets... or, rather, legitimate reasons for keeping. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 22:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per the above. —Remember the dot (talk) 23:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete unneded redirect, per all above and nomination.  abf  /talk to me/  18:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueboar (talk • contribs) 22:38, 29 September 2008

SKILES AND HENDERSON → Skiles and Henderson
The result of the debate was keep. Even though case insensitivity is handled by media wiki, redirects are cheap. No need to delete. – xeno  ( talk ) 18:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Seems like an unnecessary redirect; all caps is not a "common typo" — Yavoh 21:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Keep for the time being, for two reasons: 1) it was created by a pagemove, and 2) have you ever "accidentally" hit the Caps Lock button while you were writing something or entering data on a computer? Side note: should someone take the target article to AfD, it might not survive - if that's the case, then there's still CSD R1 for the redirect afterwards. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 17:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Template:NRHPdis → Template:Disambig
The result of the debate was Delete. Lenticel ( talk ) 00:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC) I suggest we delete this redirect to encourage people to use disambig consistently. This redirect is no longer listed at MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage. —Remember the dot (talk) 21:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete per comments of closing admin of TfD. There is no need for disambiguation templates this specialized, and there is no need for the redirect. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 22:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as being unused, and unneeded, as it serves no purpose. Pie is good  (Apple is the best)  22:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Cable tow → Masonic ritual and symbolism
The result of the debate was delete. WJBscribe (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC) redirect does not appear in article. I would also note that this is the standard problem with the other 22 redirects on this page created by this same individual, which mostly point to the same article. MSJapan (talk) 04:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Legitimate search term. I would find it useful.  This page comes up first for me when searching on Cable Tow. JASpencer (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - not what I expect, and what casual readers would expect, to see at the end of the search term - of the first page of google hits few refer to masonic ritual - most go to links talking about water skiing and other things involving cables - Peripitus (Talk) 21:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete - if "cable" doesn't appear in the target article by itself, how does the Wikipedia reader connect "cable tow" to "Masonic ritual and symbolism"? If the connection is simply not apparent, the redirect should be deleted as confusing. On the other hand, should the originator write a cited standalone article on the term (which, in quotation marks, has over 22,000 Google hits), I would have no objection... considering that the Erie Canal originally used cable (or ropes) to tow boats along its length.147.70.242.40 (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - "cable tow" could just as easily redirect to an article on different types of ski lifts. Blueboar (talk) 17:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Lions grasp → Masonic ritual and symbolism
The result of the debate was delete. WJBscribe (talk) 00:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Term does not appear in target article. MSJapan (talk) 04:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. As discussed this is based on a legitimate search term. JASpencer (talk) 18:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. I would disagree with the characterisation of the discussion on the talk page.  There is no credible sourceing which supports the redirection.ALR (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete - nowhere to be found in target, no context to help here. The vast majority of Google hits on "Lions grasp" are sports related (as part of a sentence like "Can the Nittany Lions grasp the momentum and win the championship?"). 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Jesus Emmanuel → Knights Templar (Freemasonry)
The result of the debate was retarget to Immanuel. WJBscribe (talk) 00:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Unhelpful search term; text does not appear in target article. No idea where this came from or why it is relevant. MSJapan (talk) 04:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Now changed to Immanuel. Suggest that it should be withdrawn.  For reference it is supposed to be a password for Knights Templar as a quick search would show. JASpencer (talk) 18:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete Reliance on a selection of conspiracy websites as a source does not suggest this is a credible search term.ALR (talk) 20:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you seen where it is now pointing? JASpencer (talk) 21:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'

Machaben → Masonic ritual and symbolism
The result of the debate was delete. Wizardman 18:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Not mentioned in article, and TBH, I don't even know where this comes from, because it has nothing to do with Masonry. MSJapan (talk) 04:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Legitimate and useful search term. Alleged Masonic password. This page was the first result when searching for Machaben. A serious question is whether MSJapan has reviewed the terms for RfD before this mass entry.  He should have attempted one or two entries.  Otherwise it looks like WP:POINT JASpencer (talk) 18:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. It's not WP:POINT if there appears to be a legitimate reason for the nomination - that's why this is called Redirects for Discussion, rather than its former name, Redirects for Deletion. It's based on two premises: 1) there is no such thing that there is an editor who can know everything, and 2) legitimate redirects should be saved; illegitimate ones should be purged. MSJapan has been here at WP:RfD for quite some time now, and I can tell you (despite my being unable to sign in at my work computer) that he/she is not one to violate WP:POINT with his/her edits and Wikipedia actions. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 19:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete reliance on a personal website as support for this being a legitimate search term is pretty tenuous and would suggest that it is unlikely to be notable.ALR (talk) 20:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Notability not a reason for deleting redirects. JASpencer (talk) 21:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sourcing is inadequate to either standalone or be included in the target article. Whilst notability may not be an issue in the purely legalistic sense, the actual usability of the term is not likely to be persistent in the knowledge base.ALR (talk) 21:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: The targeted article has been redirected per AfD... so now we have a double redirect. Blueboar (talk) 18:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as previously stated, term appears nowhere in the target article, and there appears to be no context for it. Stated "keep" justification above appears several levels of separation from the target to be useful for the layperson. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 14:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not strictly true. The decision was Keep as No Consensus.  It was redirected by the nominator MSJapan after he didn't get the deletion decision. JASpencer (talk) 20:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, not strictly true. The majority opinion was merge or redirect.  Since consensus is a fallacy in binary decision making it was a reasonable action, but I standby for hours of legalistic wrangling.ALR (talk) 20:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Boldly retargeted to Freemasonry to fix double redirect. This does not negate the issue(s) at hand. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'

Five Points of Fellowship → Masonic ritual and symbolism
The result of the debate was delete. WJBscribe (talk) 22:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Not mentioned in target, therefore not a useful redirect. MSJapan (talk) 04:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'

Strong Grip of the Master Mason → Masonic ritual and symbolism
The result of the debate was delete delldot   &nabla;.  00:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the right title (wrong grammatical article), and again, it's not in the target article at all. MSJapan (talk) 04:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Legitimate and useful search term.  This page is the first result on a search for Five Points of Fellowship. JASpencer (talk) 18:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete, reliance on a personal exposure site of questionable reliability does not suggest this term has notability or that the target is appropriate.ALR (talk) 20:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The notability argument seems prevalent. Do you think that this is a criteria for deleting redirects? JASpencer (talk) 21:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * From an information architecture perspective your extensive use of conspiracy websites essentially disallows either the creation of an article, or the inclusion of the material in a credible article. Whilst a purely legalistic interpretation of the rules, taking each one in isolation, may mean that you can force it through on technicalities the actual informational value of the redirect is minimal, if not non-existent.  If you can neither create an article, or include the information in any legitimate way into an article, then it's not justifiable.  I recognise that we do take very different approaches to the ruleset.
 * ALR (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In addition, WP:Wikilawyering is discouraged here. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How was that last comment not a violation of WP:NPA. I have tried to avoid wikilawyering all along here.  Anon-IP, you are a rather one sided judge in all of this. JASpencer (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: The targeted article has been redirected per AfD... so now we have a double redirect.
 * Delete - "Five points of fellowship" is nowhere to be found in the target article, and no "bridge" to the term can be found there, either. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not strictly true. The decision was Keep as No Consensus.  It was redirected by the nominator MSJapan after he didn't get the deletion decision. JASpencer (talk) 20:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Followups - nomination was missing a bracket for the template nominating the second redirect here. It's been added (apologies to nom if he/she objects), and both nominated redirects have been retargeted to Freemasonry to fix double redirects. This does not change any issue(s) at hand. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 22:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ma-Ha-Bone → Masonic ritual and symbolism
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">WJBscribe (talk) 22:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Not mentioned in target article. Top hit for this on Google is a Wikipedia user talk page, and the rest of references to a book written by an anonymous author. I guess the idea is that this appears in the ritual someplace, but it's news to me, and there doesn't seem to be any RS to support it.. MSJapan (talk) 04:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Useful and Legitimate search term. This is an alleged funny handshake.  This page was the first result I came across when searching for ""Ma-Ha-Bone".  It is interesting that MSJ used google for this (probably without the inverted commas) but apparently not for anything else where the Google results are not mentioned at all. JASpencer (talk) 19:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete reliance on an exposure site to support the existence or appropriateness of this redirect suggests that it lacks sufficient notability, if valid. No evidence of credible sources for a valid target.ALR (talk) 20:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - no apparent connection in target article, no context. Author is relying too heavily on information that might not pass WP:V and WP:RS in assuming that the connection is valid. "The dots" need to be connected, and as with most of today's nominees, there seem to be a definite lack of connection. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: The targeted article has been redirected per AfD... so now we have a double redirect. Blueboar (talk) 18:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Retargeted to Freemasonry to fix double redirect. This does not change the issue(s) at hand here. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 23:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Dueguard → Masonic ritual and symbolism
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete delldot   &nabla;.  00:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Not mentioned in target, and has nothing to do with ritual content or symbolic content. Etymologically, it might come from French, but there's no proof. So the term is not in the article, and the relevance hasn't been established. MSJapan (talk) 04:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: The targeted article has been redirected per AfD... so now we have a double redirect. Blueboar (talk) 18:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Keep. Yet another legitimate and useful search term.  An alleged funny handshake it probably best fits in Masonic ritual and symbolism, but I suppose it could go to Freemasonry or an article on Masonic modes of recognition when it is written.  Some sort of constructive alternative suggestion rather than a knee jerk delete would have saved everyone's time as it is clear from the above that MSJapan accepts that this is a Masonic term.  The first page I get on Google is a quotation about the "sign and dueguard of fellowcraft" (from Joyce's Ulysess).  In case MSJapan, who claims to be a Freemason, does not get the reference to the second degree of Freemasonry known as fellowcraft, the third result is a rather long entry in the "Masonic dictionary". JASpencer (talk) 19:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not convinced that the target is appropriate, the Due-Guard is neither ritual nor symbol. That said, I'm not entirely sure what the appropriate target would be.  I think the difficulty is that there is little to say about it, so any target probably isn't right as there would be no substance to put into said target. ALR (talk) 21:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - no sign of "Dueguard", no context at all, in target article. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Retargeted to Freemasonry to fix double redirect. This does not change the issue(s) at hand. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Supreme Council of the A. and A.S. Rite of the State of Louisiana → Continental Freemasonry in North America
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">WJBscribe (talk) 22:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Invalid search term. No info exists on this group online {this is not the same Scottish Rite that gets all the hits), and it is therefore nn. The extent of its coverage is one line in the target article. MSJapan (talk) 04:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Legitimate and useful search term that was until a week ago in the article.  This was in the article, and I'm not sure why it's been removed (that's not an accusation, as it was deleted by an unconnected user).  It's also mentioned by Paul Bessel who is apparently a scholar on Freemasonry, as a leading reason for the split between the French and English forms of Freemasonry, and so could well be notable enough for its own article.  This article is second (after the wikipedia entries) in a search for "Supreme Council of the A. and A.S. Rite of the State of Louisiana". JASpencer (talk) 19:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete as this is much too long to be a worthwhile search item. Its absence from the target is another reason not to have it. To the person who wrote "... could well be notable enough for its own article": if it passes WP:CORP, then write at least a well sourced stub, but also keep in mind that WP:RS and WP:V must also come into play here. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Tyling → Tyler (Masonic)
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete  delldot   &nabla;.  00:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Too ambiguous to be helpful. The only reason "tyling" redirs to "tyler" is because the redirector knows it does. It could just as well be a misspelling of "tiling", or [http://www.hoasm.org/IIIC/Tyling.html the name of a 15th cent. musician] or a family name, and apparently also a type of shiitake mushroom and maybe a Chinese name. MSJapan (talk) 04:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Suggest a better alternative or create a disambiguation page.  You display awards for tyling so it obviously matters to you. JASpencer (talk) 19:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No personal attacks - discuss the articles and the edits, not the editors. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete. Unless someone finds a noteworthy person or two with the last name of Tyling (as opposed to Tyler), this is best removed as ambiguous. Note that tiling, a close variant that is far more widely used, points somewhere else. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Enthüllungen des Systems der Weltbürger-Politik → Anti-Masonry
<span id="Enthüllungen des Systems der Weltbürger-Politik" > <div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was no consensus. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">WJBscribe (talk) 22:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Not in English (German), cannot be typed on a standard English keyboard. Additionally, the redirector, per this discussion doesn't even really know what it is either. So how does he know it belongs where he pointed it? MSJapan (talk) 04:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - if the original author tags it CSD G7, it would be the appropriate thing to do, per MSJapan's writeup above. The original "cannot be typed on a standard English keyboard" justification is really not a valid one for deletion, for diacritics are available below the editing window - just pull down and click "Latin." 147.70.242.40 (talk) 19:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep MSJapan doesn't really summarise what I said with any accuracy (as should be apparent from looking at the discussion he cites). I haven't read the book but it is one that a German user (User:Liberal Freemason) put in and it is referred to in a number of German Language sources,,  and .  I would be wrong to do this as a G7 CSD and as the anon IP above said "cannot be typed on a standard English keyboard" justification is really not a valid one for deletion. JASpencer (talk) 20:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If there is no context, it is a confusing and therefore an unuseful redirect. There is no context for this in the target article. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You proably didn't see, but the text was removed, inadvertantly, by Blueboar on the same day as the nomination.   It's not been restored in a much shortened form and so the context argument is not really valid. It does seem to be an issue that the context is quite often consigned to the history section just before or while a deletion argument is going on.  This is inadvertant but it can muddy the waters. JASpencer (talk) 08:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Keep - the book in question does seem to be the origin of many anti-masonic conspiracy theories. As such, it is appropriate to redirect it to Anti-Masonry.  Blueboar (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Noahida → Masonic ritual and symbolism
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was retarget to Christianity and Freemasonry. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">WJBscribe (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC) POV redirect that does not occur on the target page, and has nothing to do with the target. The only place this term occurs is in Catholic sources on Freemasonry. Not one relevant Google hit shows where the term even occurs in Masonic ritual (because it doesn't; the hits imply that the usage is actually elsewhere, only once, in an 18th cent. non-ritual text), so it does not pertain to its target. MSJapan (talk) 04:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC) :Keep As MSJ says it appears in discussions about Masonic ritual. JASpencer (talk) 19:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete no evidence of notability, relevance or reliability of this redirect.ALR (talk) 20:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Notability is not a reason for deleting redirects. JASpencer (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, but lack of a mention in the target article can be - and often is - here. I see no such mention in this target article. Delete as without any context, this is a confusing redirect. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: The targeted article has itself been redirected per AfD... so now we have a double redirect. Blueboar (talk) 18:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Christianity_and_Freemasonry JASpencer (talk) 21:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not strictly true. The decision was Keep as No Consensus.  It was redirected by the nominator MSJapan after he didn't get the deletion decision. JASpencer (talk) 20:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Retargeted to Freemasonry to fix double redirect. This does not change the issues at hand. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 23:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'

Masonicinfo → List of Freemasons
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">WJBscribe (talk) 22:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Blatantly obvious. This is referring to a website used to source Masonic articles, and since redirecting it to Freemasonry was considered not appropriate because it should redirect to an article about the website (which doesn't pass WP:WEB) and not its subject matter, the person who created the redirect pointed it at the reference section of List of Freemasons. The inappropriateness of this should be obvious. MSJapan (talk) 04:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep As already discussed, it would be better to point to Freemasonry but an Admin has said that as it appears most in that section that's where it should point to. JASpencer (talk) 19:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - not only is "masonicinfo" nowhere to be found in the target article, the redirect (as discussed in the abovementioned user talk page) was created because Masonicinfo.com was about to be deleted as spam (as it is, the latter should also be up for RfD for the same reason)! Thus it is an inappropriate redirect that should be removed. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment It may help to look at the edit of the site is used as a reference for Bud Abbott, Sherman Adams, Nelson Aldrich, Ezra Ames, Eddy Arnold and Stephen F. Austin. There are more but I stopped at A. The spam designation was a mistake by the admin who deleted it, as it does not appear on the spam blacklist.  JASpencer (talk) 20:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need to be on the blacklist to be considered spam for Wikipedia purposes. See WP:SPAM. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I went through this before, under what definition of WP:SPAM does it meet? And please don't say what an admin has said and then half-retracted.  JASpencer (talk) 22:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete... does not pass the "Huh? why am I here?" test. Anyone searching for this term would expect to find an article on the website in question, and would wonder why they are being redirected anywhere else.  Being redirected to the references section of an article that uses the website as a reference does not make sense.  We end up with a loop... anyone comming from the website, looking for more information about it, is being redirected to a page that simply cites the website and points the reader back to the website. Blueboar (talk) 16:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Webb-Preston → Thomas Smith Webb
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. Wizardman 18:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Inaccurate for the reason below (nothing to do with Webb himself), and also wrong. No one who knows what this is to search for it would ever flip the term. It is "Preston-Webb", always has been, and has always been referred to as such. MSJapan (talk) 03:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Nom fails on it's own terms here. JASpencer (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete as unlikely search term in this context (if "Webb-Preston" is important enough in its own context for a standalone article, just write it!). Author of contested redirects is urged to provide context in the target article to help establish their legitimacy. As I often write in WP:AfD: what you write in these discussions pales in importance compare to what you put in the articles themselves when it comes to whether or not they should be kept. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Webb-Preston is used as a term in the connected Masonic article. It is perfectly possible for people to get the order wrong in a search. JASpencer (talk) 20:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * But this is not pointed toward the Masonic article: it's pointed to an article of one of the two people whose last name is mentioned in the title. So it's not a valid redirect as there are two potential redirect targets, not one (it could conceivably be a standalone article per my comments above... and below). If it is indeed "Preston-Webb", then this could be retargeted to Preston-Webb once the redirect is overwritten with a standalone article (don't retarget now - it would be a double redirect!). 147.70.242.40 (talk) 23:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Preston-Webb → Thomas Smith Webb
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. Wizardman 18:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Preston-Webb refers to a branch of Masonic ritual that derives from the works of both William Preston (1720s in England) and Thomas Smith Webb (1790s or so in the US). As such, it is not accurate to redir to either one of them alone, and it is likely that neither of them had anything to do with the creation of this directly. MSJapan (talk) 03:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Then suggest a better alternative. It was redirected there on the [suggestion] of another editor. JASpencer (talk) 20:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete if a standalone article with this title cannot be written and survive here. A redirect with two equally important potential targets is not a viable option. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well it should go to Masonic ritual and symbolism as it is a branch of Masonic ritual. JASpencer (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A revisit to WP:R might help here. Is the term specifically mentioned in the target article, or is this a case in which it is simply trying to preserve a redirect that is better deleted (see my comment above)? Find an article on a person with the last name of Preston-Webb and redirect this there... or find two such people (must pass WP:BIO) and turn this redirect into a disambiguation page. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I went there and saw that one of the reasons for the redirect is a section that can be expanded (which seems to be ignored in another discussion). I also saw the Principle of least astonishment which seems to fit this particular case like a glove. If I'm missing something on that page then could you please quote it? JASpencer (talk) 22:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete- There have been several attempts to find a "home" for the title "Preston-Webb" over the last few weeks, none of which have been appropriate. The problem isn't where the title redirects to... but with creating the initial title to be redirected. There is no such animal as the Preston-Webb ritual (there is a Preston ritual and there is a Webb ritual... but they are two seperate things).  Two seperate things have been improperly put together by the creating editor.  No wonder nothing fits. Blueboar (talk) 16:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Modern Grand Lodge → Premier Grand Lodge of England
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">WJBscribe (talk) 22:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Incorrect and ambiguous. The redirect title was not what the target was called; it was the Premier Grand Lodge, and it is never referred to as Moderns (which is what the term is) as a standalone term - it is used as "Antients and Moderns" because that juxtaposition is where the name cam from historically. Furthermore, the first point notwithstanding, it is ambiguous for the uninformed - is "Modern Grand Lodge" simply just an article on how a contemporary Grand Lodge works because old ones were different, is it the name of a contemporary Grand Lodge, or what? It's too error-prone to be helpful. MSJapan (talk) 03:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Keep Legitimate and useful search term. This is one of the worse argued entries as the "Antients and Moderns" was one of the defining splits in Freemasonry. Never does not mean the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry which was, naturally, the first result on Google.  This article is a far more readable reference.  JASpencer (talk) 20:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete: "Modern Grand Lodge" can have multiple meanings... While it might refer to the group known to Masonic historians as the "Moderns" it can also refer to a Grand Lodge in the modern era (as opposed to a historic Grand Lodge.) I understand what the creator was trying to do, and the intent is valid... but he used the wrong term... the historic GL of England is called the "Moderns"... in the plural (as in the Moderns Grand Lodge).  Suggest that this might be a more appropriate redirect. Blueboar (talk) 17:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, ambiguous in meaning, the term itself as presented can be very confusing. Blueboar's suggestion seems much more appropriate and useful. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 22:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Grand Lodge of All England at York → Grande Loge de France
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. Wizardman 18:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Grossly inappropriate subversion of procedure to retain the possibility of forking of deleted content, and an unhelpful and incorrect search term to boot. The All England article was AfDed and deleted. This redirect was then created to a Masonic group in France that recognizes All England but otherwise has nothing to do with it. MSJapan (talk) 03:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep An existing body, so by definition a legitimate search term. It's not notable enough for its own entry, but it's a legitimate search term and is mentioned in the target article.  As a matter of interest the Afd is here:Articles_for_deletion/Grand_Lodge_of_All_England_at_York.  Is MSJapan seriously saying that deleted articles should not be redirects? JASpencer (talk) 20:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete Three men and their dog have so far failed to achieve the notability required to justify an article in WP. The redirect itself is wholly inappropriate as the philosophies of the two bodies are somewhat different, the only apparent reason for the target is their mutual recognition.  Unfortunately the conflation of the two bodies demonstrates a weak understanding of the nature, and politics, of recognition. ALR (talk) 20:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Is dislike of the group a reason for entering an argument or for recusing? JASpencer (talk) 22:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have any strong feelings either way about either body, and any suggestion of otherwise strikes me as a somewhat disingenuous effort to undermine me, rather than the position I've stated. ALR (talk) 07:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ... and that would be a violation of WP:NPA (and likely also WP:CIVIL). We're assuming good faith here at RfD, and I'm sure that such belligerence would be unintentional in this case. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per AfD above. Only mention in target article is tangential and trivial at best. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How about General_list_of_masonic_Grand_Lodges ? This is an existing body so a likely search term, and that can't be denied. JASpencer (talk) 21:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a handy rule of thumb that I've learned at RfD over the past year or two: if you have to go fishing for a target for a redirect, the redirect should be deleted. It can be recreated whenever the appropriate article is written. Sorry, but keeping for the sake of keeping is not enough; the title alone is too long to be that useful for a search as one would be far more likely to abridge it. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "fishing"? Is that an irregular verb. "I am trying to find a solution, you are fishing"?  Redirects have a useful place in Wikipedia and when they point to an article where a legitimate term should be covered.  If there is a better destination then it should be pointing there.  That is what this is supposed to be about, not backing up your friends or winning at all costs. JASpencer (talk) 19:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sometimes, having no destination is the best option. This is one of those times. Blueboar (talk) 19:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Why? Are they that evil? JASpencer (talk) 21:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete. There is no article and the mentioning at the current target is rather slim. The list entry provides no content either.--Tikiwont (talk) 08:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Lion's Paw → Masonic ritual and symbolism
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was converted to a disambiguation page. Lenticel ( talk ) 00:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC) No mention of redir in target article. Simple attempt to create false linkage for an article by creating a superficial blue link that will show nothing of value for the search term. MSJapan (talk) 03:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed to Pennsylvania State University for an already existing red link. Would suggest that nominator withdraws. JASpencer (talk) 20:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The retargeting mentioned above doesn't solve the problem (still no mention in the target article). On the other hand, Lion's Paw is the name of an Algonquin whose name is featured in the legend of Mount Nittany (I don't think the Lion's Paw Society would pass WP:CORP), a 1946 book written by Robb White, a scallop of the genus Nodipecten... and a lion's paw is most remembered in an Aesop's fable ("The Slave and the Lion") and the story "Androcles and the Lion". Dabify. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Started as suggested. JASpencer (talk) 21:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'

Confederation of the United Grand Lodges of Europe → Grande Loge de France
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was delete. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">WJBscribe (talk) 22:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Incorrect redirect. The Confederation is exactly that, and therefore consists of multiple Grand Orients/Lodges all over Europe. Redirecting it to one member's article where it only has a one-line mention is not appropriate. MSJapan (talk) 03:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Legitimate and useful search term. It's mentioned on the page of it's largest member.  Will probably in time have it's own article, but until then can serve as a redirect. JASpencer (talk) 20:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - redirecting a general term to a more specific one is generally a bad idea, somewhat like redirecting United States of America to California. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We're not talking about that though. We're talking about by far the largest and oldest component.  I also noticed that MSJapan got another fact wrong, it is a whole section(Grande_Loge_de_France) not a single line. JASpencer (talk) 21:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - It's still a component as opposed to the whole (which indicates that the redirection is tenuous at best), and your "section" is simply one line and a bullet list. MSJapan (talk) 20:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm uncomfortable with the suggestion that the federation is only the one body within it. If the term is notable enough to justify a redirect then it seems reasonable to try to substantiate an article.  If an article can't be created then there isn't the notability to justify the redirection.ALR (talk) 21:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep as it provides useful information. If the Confederation is notable in itself (I have my doubts as it looks like an Amity list for the Grande Loge de France) then the alternative is to split out the section being redirected to. Delete would simply be unhelpful to readers. --Rumping (talk) 08:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - I too am uncomfortable with redirecting a general term to a more specific one, usually we would go the other way around (redirecting the specific term to an article on the general one). I like the analogy of redirecting United States of America to California...  although in that case both are notable enough for their own articles.  In this, we have a non-notable confederation with a notable member organization.  That means that ultimately we are dealing with an issue of inherited notability.  Unfortunately, notability is not inherited.  Finally, when a Wikipedia redirect is the second hit (of about 8 total) listed on a google search... it tells you something is wrong with the redirect. Blueboar (talk) 22:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'

Tubal Cain (masonic password) → Masonic ritual and symbolism
<span id="Tubal Cain (masonic password)" > <div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was Delete. Lenticel ( talk ) 00:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Unhelpful and incorrect. Tubal-cain is not (and never was) mentioned in the target article, and it is not a "Masonic password", but a name in the Old Testament mentioned in Genesis. MSJapan (talk) 03:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not a masonic password, but apparently a funny handshake. Changed to "Tubal Cain (freemasonry)" for the sake of disambiguation page.  I know you're suppsed to keep this secret, but wasn't that misdirection? JASpencer (talk) 20:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete reliance on an exposure site of questionable reliability (and that's being generous) indicates that this term probably doesn't have sufficient notability to justify, and given the lack of underlying substance I would question the appropriateness of the target.ALR (talk) 20:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Question What is the name for the pass grip of the master mason? JASpencer (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Answer: That depends on the jurisdiction and ritual being used. There isn't just one. Blueboar (talk) 18:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Delete as there is no disambiguation needed (Tubal Cain (freemasonry) and Tubal Cain (masonic password) are up for RfD, while Tubal Cain is a redirect to a Tubalcain dab page). Since there appears to be no articles with that name, the disambiguated title is not only redundant but highly unlikely as a search term. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 23:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

La Grande Loge Régulière de Belgique → Freemasonry in Belgium
<span id="La Grande Loge Régulière de Belgique" > <div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was No consensus. Lenticel ( talk ) 00:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Unhelpful and confusing search term. If someone is going to search for this group on English language WP, why would they use the Belgian French term when the body has an accepted name in English already redirected to the same section? As with some of the other noms, this cannot even be typed properly on a standard English keyboard. This is just asking to be turned into a POV fork in the future. MSJapan (talk) 03:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Keep as some people may know it only by the Belgian French name. There is plenty of precedent for redirecting an original non-English name to its English translation. La Tour Eiffel, anybody? As far as the diacritics are concerned, see my notes both above and below this entry. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

La Discrète Impériale → History of Freemasonry in Belgium
<span id="La Discrète Impériale" > <div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was Keep. Lenticel ( talk ) 23:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC) As below, an unhelpful search term. This is a Masonic lodge in Alost in the 1700s, and is barely covered in the article it redirects to. What compounds the problem even more is that this cannot even be typed on an English keyboard. MSJapan (talk) 03:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Keep as it is mentioned in the target article. Diacritics can be found below the editing rectangle - just pull down and click "Latin". 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: This is true, but I'm working from the perspective that the editing box is not accessible via the search box, so unless the user can type in the language needed, one will never actually hit this redirect from search. MSJapan (talk) 03:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep This is one I really don't understand. I disagree with others but understand them.  Surely redirects are meant for this type of situation. JASpencer (talk) 20:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * MSJapan has a point... you can not type accent marks when searching. I would say that La Discrete Imperiale (ie the name without accent marks) is a legitimate search term, and thus a legit redirect... but not La Discrète Impériale (ie with the accent marks).  Delete this one and then create a redirect for the more legitimate version. never mind... I have discovered that you can enter accents into the search box. Blueboar (talk) 17:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

La Parfaite Union → Freemasonry in Brussels
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was Delete, it seems that the entry is incorrect translated. Lenticel ( talk ) 00:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Unhelpful search term. This is the name of a Masonic Lodge in Brussels in the 18th century. That's all we know about it. and the extent of its coverage is a list entry in the target article. Not only that, this is also in French. Why anyone would be searching for a French name of this sort on the English WP is somewhat beyond me, but it has been established elsewhere that lodges fall under "local chapters" per WP:ORG and need to pass WP:N. Therefore, there's no real reason to have created this as a redirect from the outset, which is exactly what has happened. MSJapan (talk) 03:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as this is not the correct name - L'Union Parfaite is. OBTW, redirects from the original language to their English translation generally are valid as many times the original name is more likely to be remembered. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, when you say that "this is not the correct name", do you mean that this is not the correct translation or that there was not a lodge named this? The second reason is incorrect. JASpencer (talk) 09:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Keep (1) Unhelpful? It existed so is helpful and legitimate by definition. (2) Searching for Foreign language terms is a perfectly acceptable activity on a site (en.wikipedia) with many articles with foreign language text and article names. (3) Notability does not count for redirects. JASpencer (talk) 20:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Grand Orator → Masonic Lodge Officers
<div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was Retarget to Orator. Lenticel ( talk ) 23:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC) Not a helpful search term. It's not a Masonic Lodge position, it's not covered in the article it redirects to, and there are very few Grand Lodges that even have this position. Google shows hit #1 being a WP article where it was described incorrectly (so I rm'ed it), four relevant hits before a reference to Barack Obama, and hit #11 is already a repeat of an earlier hit. MSJapan (talk) 03:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Retarget to orator. I noticed that a recent edit to "orator" removed the phrase, but Google searches indicate a widespread use (246,000 hits with "grand orator" in quotation marks), thus indicating more than just a meaning in freemasonry. 147.70.242.40 (talk) 20:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Redirect as suggested.ALR (talk) 20:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

'The above is preserved as the archive of a RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * As the creator I hope I'm OK to redirect this which I've done. The target article really should have this. JASpencer (talk) 20:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Editing List of Episodes (Season Four) from Little Bear (TV series) → List of Little Bear episodes (season 4)
<span id="Editing List of Episodes (Season Four) from Little Bear (TV series)" > <div class="boilerplate mfd" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">The result of the debate was Speedy delete per R3 (non admin closure) « <font color="#9696A0" face="Cambria">Milk's Favorite <font color="#4D0100" face="Snap ITC">Cøøkie  » 00:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Probably leftover from article creation, unlikely ever to be used. Largo Plazo (talk) 00:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 'The above is preserved as the archive of an RfD nomination. Please do not modify it.'
 * Speedy delete - R3. « <font color="#9696A0" face="Cambria">Milk's Favorite <font color="#4D0100" face="Snap ITC">Cøøkie  » 00:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)