Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 August 11

August 11
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on August 11, 2013.

Template:R with



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget to Template:R template index. WJBscribe (talk) 22:15, 26 October 2013 (UTC)


 * → Template messages/Redirect pages (links to redirect • [ history] • )     [ Closure: [ keep]/[ delete] ]

Delete as completely nonsensical. The redirect is useless in just about every way, and its title—simply put—doesn't make any sense. Not surprisingly, there are no links to the redirect, and it is not mentioned anywhere on the target page. I have no idea what its creator intended it to be used for back in 2008; it originally was a double-redirect to R help, which redirects redirected at the time to the current target of R with (WP:TMR).&emsp;&mdash;  | J  ~  Pæst  | &#8202; 00:57, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete – curious and confusing artifact. The Whispering Wind (talk) 16:52, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. If a new editor does not understand something, that does not necessarily make it "nonsensensical", completely nor otherwise, does it? Template shortcut redirects like this were created to help editors get to other, usually longer-named pages quickly by typing the short name into the Wikipedia search field at the top of every page.  Their usefulness cannot be measured by what appears on a "What links here" page. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 22:31, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: The phrase "R with" is not in any way related to or suggestive of WP:TMR. It is a cross-namespace redirect, as its target is quite obviously not a template, and the phrase literally has no meaning—either in the template namespace or the project namespace. I cannot imagine this redirect as being helpful to editors; nobody would ever expect it to exist, whether experienced or inexperienced as an editor.&emsp;&mdash;  | J  ~  Pæst  | &#8202; 06:32, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Try to understand – some redirects are not about an obvious relationship to a target, nor about what namespace they target, nor whether or not the phrase has meaning, nor which namespace in which it has no meaning, nor about what you cannot imagine, nor about what nobody seems to ever expect, nor about wide usage or narrow usage, nor about how few or how many are in the main index of Rcats (which is still much of a work in progress), nor about what you or anyone else thinks that anybody in their right mind would search for, nor about what you feel to be nonsensical. Some redirects are just about, and all about, their usefulness to the contributors who created them (or in some cases those who carpe'd them for their own usage).  So please do try to understand. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 10:30, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
 * A redirect that was made for one particular editor's own personal usage has no reason to be kept in itself—that's ridiculous!&emsp;&mdash;  | J  ~  Pæst  | &#8202; 23:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That is not what was implied, JPæst, not at all what I implied. Every redirect is made by one editor.  That editor does not make the redirect for his or her "own personal usage".  That editor finds the redirect useful and figures that other editors will also find it useful.  Really, do try to understand. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 19:07, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You should try to understand that redirects are not all about their usefulness to the editors who created them. You didn't just imply that you thought that; you clearly stated it.&emsp;&mdash;  | J  ~  Pæst  | &#8202; 00:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * And you obviously misunderstood what I wrote. If that was mybad, then it was mybad.  Some redirects/shortcuts are most definitely conceived and created for the usefulness and convenience of editors.  And the "What links here" pages do not always accurately reflect that immeasurable utility. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 19:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. The nom might want to double check the target of R help, too. –  Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 22:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per Ellsworth  form is widely used in redirect templating, so it makes sense to redirect the empty form to the page describing them. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 00:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "Widely used"? Out of the &#8764;204 existing redirect templates, R with possibilities and R with old history are the only two that begin with the phrase "R with" (see here). And it seems you did not check the target, WP:TMR, either: the template R with old history is not even mentioned anywhere on the page! This makes your statement that the page describes them incorrect. Besides that, there is still no meaning to "R with", and nobody in the right mind would search it in the hopes of finding TMR. It is no less nonsensical to keep the redirect just because the target page mentions one of the two "R with" templates.&emsp;&mdash;  | J  ~  Pæst  | 


 * Comment. It is important to understand the utility of this kind of shortcut. Normally, when this shortcut is enabled, any editor may type "Template:R with" into the Wikipedia search field and get to the main Rcat index almost instantly.  This kind of usefulness cannot be measured by the number of links on a "What links here" page.  Here is another example I recently came across.  Please try this experiment to compare.  The shortcut is a mainspace redirect that leads to a mainspace article.  One can get to that article either by typing the article title into the Wikipedia search field, or type the shortcut into that field.  Type either:
 * T:SCC &#60;ENTER>, or
 * Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles &#60;ENTER>
 * Which is easier? By the same token, try typing into the Wikipedia search field:
 * Template:R with &#60;ENTER>, and
 * Wikipedia:Template messages/Redirect pages &#60;ENTER>, or even
 * WP:Template messages/Redirect pages &#60;ENTER>
 * And again, which is easiest? There is no way of knowing who or how many editors use this type of shortcut.  There might be few or no links to the shortcut, and it could still be one of the more useful shortcuts available.  I use this and similar shortcuts almost every day while I categorize redirects.  And I know I am not the only contributor who finds these shortcuts useful. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 04:36, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete in spite of Paine Ellsworth. Stat shows over the period 90 days ago, the only visits to this page were after this TfD started. In addition, even when this template/redirect is deleted, people can still get the same results that Paine suggests by typing "Template:R with" because search function does the same thing. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:01, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you actually try what you suggested, Lisa? It definitely does not do the same thing.  When you type "Template:R with" into the search field, you get a dropdown list of perhaps eight of the Rcats that begin with "R with".  And if this template is deleted that is all you would get.  When this shortcut is enabled, and you type "Template:R with" into the search field and press &#60;ENTER>, the "WP:Template Messages/Redirect pages" index springs into your visual field!  Let's be clear.  I don't think any admin would delete this template.  Most admins have been around long enough to know the value of this type of shortcut.  If, on the other hand, an admin were to delete Template:R with, then the contributors who use it will note the deletion later and just create another shortcut to do the job.  So where we had one shortcut that may serve several editors, we would then have > one shortcuts that do the same thing and that serve those several editors.  That is probably what would happen if this shortcut is deleted – more shortcut redirects would be created to replace it. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 15:26, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hopefully, you also may note that page-view stats are just as useless as the "What links here" page to assess the value of this type of shortcut. If you were to type "Template:R with" into the search field (and press &#60;ENTER>) a thousand times, then a thousand times you would be taken directly to the target of the shortcut.  The shortcut itself would not register any page views when it is used in this manner. –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 16:02, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, Paine. So far all you have done is to condemn anyone and every evidence that has disputed your point of view. Stats show no one uses this shortcut; you thik stats be damned. Tools show there is no inbound link; tools be damned! Codename Lisa says search function can do the same for her; Codename Lisa be damned! Effectively, your discussion is "I just like it". Well, I am not going to change my stance because you think it is not worth a dime, sorry. My opinion is respectable for myself. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 21:03, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know, maybe it's the way I come across. I don't mean to sound demeaning in any way.  I try to be factual and to communicate knowledge.  Maybe I've been doing this too long.  Yes, I should take a Wikibreak.  Joys! –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 00:16, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay! Well, that was refreshing!
 * Please point out one single instance where I have condemned somebody in this conversation. As for my point of view, it does sometimes come into conflict with the POVs of others.  That is why we discuss things.  I could just as easily say that your response above tries to condemn me, but I won't.  Unlike some people I prefer to assume good faith and give others the benefit of the doubt.  You've taken a nice swing at me, Lisa.  You seem to want to try to make this all about my ego, and while that may work for you in other discussions, it will not work with me.  This is all about the disposition of redirects that are up for discussion, and that's all this is about.
 * Again, I will assume good faith that you have tested what you said. Effectively, you say that it will make no difference if this shortcut is deleted and that if "Template:R with" is typed into the search field after it is deleted it will do the same thing that it does now.  Then your browser works differently than mine.  When I type "Template:R with" into the search field and either press the ENTER key, or click on the search symbol, or click on "Template:R with" in the dropdown box, it takes me to the redirect page because the shortcut has been disabled by the Rfd template.  If this shortcut were not disabled then I would be taken directly to the target page.  If your browser works differently, then maybe that is the reason you took a swing at me?
 * I really have no idea where you are dredging all this up from, because my words in this discussion have nothing to do with like or dislike. I didn't even use this shortcut until this discussion started, because I didn't know it existed.  I have, however, used several shortcuts that are similar, and I use them for their utility and convenience.  I'm really sorry if I have said anything to offend you, Codename Lisa, because I can assure you that I did not do so intentionally.  If there is anything I can do to make it up to you, please let me know.  You can even take another swing if you like.  I probably deserve it for something or other.  Best to you! –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 06:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, I will assume good faith that you have tested what you said. Effectively, you say that it will make no difference if this shortcut is deleted and that if "Template:R with" is typed into the search field after it is deleted it will do the same thing that it does now.  Then your browser works differently than mine.  When I type "Template:R with" into the search field and either press the ENTER key, or click on the search symbol, or click on "Template:R with" in the dropdown box, it takes me to the redirect page because the shortcut has been disabled by the Rfd template.  If this shortcut were not disabled then I would be taken directly to the target page.  If your browser works differently, then maybe that is the reason you took a swing at me?
 * I really have no idea where you are dredging all this up from, because my words in this discussion have nothing to do with like or dislike. I didn't even use this shortcut until this discussion started, because I didn't know it existed.  I have, however, used several shortcuts that are similar, and I use them for their utility and convenience.  I'm really sorry if I have said anything to offend you, Codename Lisa, because I can assure you that I did not do so intentionally.  If there is anything I can do to make it up to you, please let me know.  You can even take another swing if you like.  I probably deserve it for something or other.  Best to you! –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 06:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I really have no idea where you are dredging all this up from, because my words in this discussion have nothing to do with like or dislike. I didn't even use this shortcut until this discussion started, because I didn't know it existed.  I have, however, used several shortcuts that are similar, and I use them for their utility and convenience.  I'm really sorry if I have said anything to offend you, Codename Lisa, because I can assure you that I did not do so intentionally.  If there is anything I can do to make it up to you, please let me know.  You can even take another swing if you like.  I probably deserve it for something or other.  Best to you! –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 06:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Curious, though, that R to redirects to Template:R template index. --BDD (talk) 18:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * R to, like R with, is just another of several type-it-in-the-search-field shortcuts. Hopefully, the closer of this discussion will understand the nature and usefulness of this kind of shortcut.  And remember that if, say, ten editors use this shortcut, and it is deleted, then those ten editors may simply create more redirect-shortcuts to replace it. –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 04:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * delete; confusing, unused and unneeded.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 20:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Just curious as to how you know it is "unused and unneeded"? With shortcuts like this, how is it possible to know who types it into a search field or how many editors type it into a search field? –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 11:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Because before the RfD it had precisely zero views: .No-one searched for it, or at least everyone ignored it if they saw it in the search box.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 13:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I give up. –  Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 18:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Template:R template index This was created in the family of R to and R from. This system is completely unnecessary if template/link autocomplete was enabled on this wiki, but that was not written by the WMF or its contractors.  So this is the next best thing for people who can't remember all the different templates.  And because its meant to be used with preview (which the devs made somehow harder) you wouldn't see traffic to the page.  — Dispenser 17:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! and I had not realized the utility of using it in previews, which is even better than opening a new tab or window and typing it into the search field to bring up the index. If I read you correctly, just add   to the edit field to produce R template index right there on the page you are editing when you click on "Show preview".  If you are on a redirect page, type a "1" or something at the top left to enable the redirect to show text when previewed.  Check out the index right there and find what you need.  When finished, you just delete R to from the edit field, re-enable the redirect and move on, save the edits and so forth.  Pretty cool.  I don't know why I didn't think of that, because I use reflist the same way when I work with cites.  That's going to save me some serious time! –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 04:13, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I would support the deletion of this entire "family" of redirects for the same reasons that I have mentioned above. The same reasoning for this redirect's deletion applies to R from and R to, as well as R for if such a redirect existed. They are all equally unnecessary, with unreasonable targets as well.&emsp;&mdash;  | J  ~  Pæst  | 
 * Please forgive me, JPaest, but you just don't seem to understand the magnificent utility of these shortcuts. This is the exact same rationale as for the "re" template listed above and its partner, "RE", that target the Reflist template.  If you've worked with reference citations, then you know that the reflist template is used in the References or Notes section of articles.  It can also be used on the edit preview screen if you have opened just a section of an article to edit.  For example, say you have noticed that a reference citation is supposed to have a "url", and you want to give it one.  You follow the up-arrow at the beginning of the citation up to the section it is in, then you open the section for editing.  You find the citation in the code and give it a "url=" parameter and an "http://..." external url code.  How are you going to preview it?  Just below the paragraph type  (but don't save it that way) and click the "Show preview" button.  All of the citations above the reflist code you just typed in will be shown, and you can check your url= edit before actually saving it.  When all is well, erase the  from the code and save your edit.  The shortcuts I mentioned just make it quicker than typing the word "reflist".  You can add "" to your preview screen to get the same result as if you had typed the entire "".  The same can be done with the shortcuts that go to the Rcat index.  This particular redirect should be retargeted to R template index, so it may be used on redirect preview screens in the same manner as the Reflist template is used on article-section preview screens.  JPaest, I sincerely and with all my heart hope that you find an understanding of the usefulness of these types of shortcuts.  During hours of editing, they save me (and other editors) a considerable amount of time.  Joys! –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 14:59, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Template:R template index for consistency. Ruslik_ Zero 08:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi. If consistency is the holy grail here, deleting them would establish consistency too. The suffer the same issue as well. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 12:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've seen lots of great stuff from you over the years, but this completely baffles me. Why would you want to delete perfectly good and useful shortcuts??? –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 19:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, Paine. I am not sure the message to which I am replying is meant for me but in my case, I do not insist on deleting these. I just said my opinion. (I think they are not worth keeping.) If they are kept in the end, I am not sadder than when they are deleted. That's what team work is about after all: To decide together. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 21:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, Lisa. Yes, both the compliment and the bafflement were meant for you.  And I count it unfortunate that you feel there is no worth to this redirect.  Unlike you, I would miss the useful, gnomish shortcuts, both this one and those others like it.  I guess one has to use them to realize how much time they save those of us who do use them almost daily.  As always, I shall be happy to yield to the consensus.  Joys! –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 04:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Retarget to Template:R template index which provides utility without being a cross-namespace redirect and affords consistency with the other templates adduced in this discussion . The Whispering Wind (talk) 16:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * -Keep I for one find it quite useful during the editign process, although I never leave it in a saved article. DES (talk) 23:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.