Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 September 3

Russia (Ukraine)



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was Delete. Ruslik_ Zero 18:35, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * → Ukraine (links to redirect • [ history] • )     [ Closure: [ keep]/[ delete] ]

Delete Meets Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion as a misnomer which is implausible and not common. So please delete this redirect. —  Yulia Romero  • Talk to me!  18:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Retarget → Russian Empire per The Whispering Wind's rationale below. Delete. Since the Ukraine has been free since the USSR took a nosedive, c. 1990, this February 2012 redirect appears to be a vandal redirect.  Should be quickly deleted under D2  D3  & D5, especially D3 . –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 18:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I strongly assume it was not vandalism... Redirect was created in article Katrina Zepps (I think) to point out that Ukraine used to be part of the Russian Empire. Since this redirect makes that no clear... I fixed that article today. —  Yulia Romero  • Talk to me!  19:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right, of course; I should have dug deeper. Since your fix of the nurse's article is a better way to explain that she was born during the Ukraine's attachment to the Russian Empire, then I see no usefulness for this redirect. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 19:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/zepps-katrina-12092, the single source for Katrina Zepps, used to refer to this place in it's machine-readable metadata as a nationality and still refers to Glukhov, Ukraine, Russia. Bearing in mind that http://adb.anu.edu.au/ / Australian Dictionary of Biography is a notable national biography this seems to me to be an entirely reasonable redirect.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.195.179.40 (talk) 00:32, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Russian Empire. Seems an entirely useful redirect to help readers who have heard that the Ukraine was once part of Russia (incorrect of course) or the Russian Empire. Readers are often not technically precise in their searches and since, with the retarget would be harmless, why delete? The Whispering Wind (talk) 22:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't think anyone is likely to search for this, whatever they have heard. Siuenti (talk) 22:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * But that is not a reason for deletion (WP:RFD point 5) which have to meet WP:RFD. The Whispering Wind (talk) 17:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a "very obscure synonym" which "makes no sense". It's not clear to me that the target you suggest is right, and having this come up as a suggestion in the search box is only likely to confuse people. Siuenti (talk) 14:19, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment is this about Kievan Rus' ? -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 03:08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Doubtful – looks like that ended in the mid-13th century, while the Russian Empire didn't end until 1917. There is an interesting redirect, Rus'-Ukraine, to that article, though. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 02:01, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Though, the time which the region of 'Ukraine' meant "Russia" was the time when Kiev ruled the Rus... While the time when Moscow ruled the Rus would be the Russian Empire, or Moskovy. -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 04:54, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete The Whispering Wind's rationale would only make sense to me for Ukraine (Russia), not this way. This implies a Russia that is, or is a part of, Ukraine, which is just nonsense. --BDD (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I see your point and it's a good one – almost urges us to retarget Crimea, as that appears to be the primary seat of Russian people in today's Ukraine. It is customary to put the more general term within parentheses to disambiguate the more specific term, so when you're right... –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 21:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes more sense to me than retargeting to Russian Empire, but absent evidence that anyone refers to Crimea as Russia, I still think deletion is the right way to go. --BDD (talk) 21:19, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete, not useful per BDD, and the Australian biographical dictionary would support the use of Ukraine (Russia) more than it would this. FYI, the Ukraine was part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (post-Empire) for several years before there was such a concept as Union Republics.  Nyttend (talk) 01:48, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Communist Daughter



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was moved to Communist Daughter (song) to preserve edit history. Communist Daughter (band) moved to Communist Daughter with hatnote. --BDD (talk) 16:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * → In the Aeroplane Over the Sea (links to redirect • [ history] • )     [ Closure: [ keep]/[ delete] ]

There's a song called "Communist Daughter"; we used to have an article on it, which was deleted per this AfD and the page was redirected to the album. There's also a band with the same name (supposedly named after the song) that lives right now at Communist Daughter (band). I'm not sure if whether we should have Communist Daughter redirect to the album with a hatnote for the band (the status quo), move Communist Daughter (band) over Communist Daughter and leave a hatnote for the album, or perhaps make Communist Daughter a disambiguation page for both. While the song seems more popular than the band, it's hard to tell, and I feel like an entire band should be given precedence over a song redirect from a single album of another. — Earwig   talk  05:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Move Communist Daughter (band) over Communist Daughter and place a hatnote for the song on Communist Daughter. I agree that the band should take precedence. The Whispering Wind (talk) 13:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Move Communist Daughter (band) over Communist Daughter and place a hatnote for the song on Communist Daughter. The song is almost certainly better known than the band, but it no long has its own article. pfeller 14:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Move. Evidently this is an uncontroversial rename to rid the article on the band of the parenthetical disambiguator, (band). Then create a Communist Daughter (song) redirect and target it to the album.  The resultant redirect that targets the band,, can then be kept and tagged with R undis.  Also, since Communist Daughter will no longer redirect to the album, there will be no more need for a hatnote on the album article.  A hatnote on the Communist Daughter band article like "For the song, see In the Aeroplane Over the Sea," will be more helpful to readers. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 20:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Stay put - whether a song has its own standalone article or is mentioned in a collection of songs is not part of whether disambiguation is needed (see WP:DAB first paragraph). The question is, "is this term ambiguous?" Looking in Google Books it evidently is since the song gets 5 hits and the nearly AfDed band gets none. Per WP:TWODAB if there is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, as in this case, a dab page should be created from the redirect, including a "see also" to the novel The Communist's Daughter 2006 Dennis Bock and perhaps to Daughter of the Party as well. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to be argumentative, but isn't the song the primary topic, 5:0 hands down? (in which case no dab page should be made from the redirect, and a hatnote in the band article would suffice, n'est-ce pas?) –  Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 22:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Move this page to Communist Daughter (song) and then create a disambiguation page per IIO. -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 06:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Thirteenth grade



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was Moot for Thirteenth grade and Obvious Retarget for Grade 13. Converted into article, and obviously the "grade 13" redirect should target the new article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * → Ontario Academic Credit (links to redirect • [ history] • )     [ Closure: [ keep]/[ delete] ]
 * → Ontario Academic Credit (links to redirect • [ history] • )    [ Closure: [ keep]/[ delete] ]

Delete or Retarget Ontario is not the only place with a 13th grade; for example the Czech Republic and Germany do. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:33, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - the redirect Grade 13 should follow the decision here. The Whispering Wind (talk) 13:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ Added to nomination. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Ontario is the only English-speaking jurisdiction that once had the thirteenth grade/grade 13. For the German and Czech equivalent, the German and Czech terms should be used with a hatnote on the Ontario Academic Credit article.  Johnny Au  (talk/contributions) 16:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Systemic bias; Wikipedia is not America, er I mean Candida. I might agree with you if these were all separate concepts known as "Thirteenth grade", e.g. if the Czech and German ones had nothing to do with school, but were just say organizations or corporations that happened to be named "thirteenth grade". In that case these would all be completely separate concepts, sharing only the same name, and the English-speaking one would arguably be the primary topic. You would probably have a good argument against disambiguation.


 * However these are not separate concepts, just 13th grade in different countries, and I'm not advocating disambiguation. Your argument is akin to saying that the primary topic for high school is high school in the United States, because the USA is the most populous English-speaking jurisdiction. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.