Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 September 29

September 29
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on September 29, 2015.

Fish sandwich



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was dabify. I'll also tag it with dabprimary. The article that replaces the dab can certainly be in list form. --BDD (talk) 14:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Fish sandwich → Fish finger sandwich (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fish_sandwich&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Every "fish sandwich" is not a "fish finger sandwich". So, delete per WP:XY and WP:REDLINK since there is potential for a broad-concept article at this title. Steel1943 (talk) 20:16, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm going to have to pull you on this, out of pure pedantry. To say Ëvery X is not Y is not the same as saying Not every X is Y. that is just basically what Peano was bashing on about (He was rabbitting about why 1 equals 1 and it isa long proof to show that it do.) Shakespeare does it, ""all that glisters is not gold"" when he means not all that glisters is gold, he doesn't mean that nothing that glisters is gold. So I suppose you have an old excuse. We have it as All that glitters is not gold here at EN:WP, but that is wrong, should be glisters. See Trew, 05,  Shakesepeare for Dummies. Si Trew (talk) 13:49, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would have thought it fairly simple. To say ""All X are not Y" is different from saying ""Not all X are Y"". This is why WP:XY is inapplicable or at best marginal. Si Trew (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The point I was trying to make is that the redirect is ambiguous. Speaking of which, maybe we should create WP:YX? Steel1943  (talk) 14:40, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hehehe, I'm up for it as a joke But what would we possibly put there though? I coan think we might take a pic of Y crossed out to look like an X. Si Trew (talk) 16:58, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ummm, I created WP:YX, it has a mathematical bent to it. Si Trew (talk) 17:24, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Disambiguate to Filet-O-Fish, fish finger sandwich and whatever else that may be applicable. The McDonald's "filet" sandwich is unlikely to be found by a simple search for "fish". Wbm1058 (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A list of articles such as this would probably be a WP:SIA. That may work. Steel1943  (talk) 20:30, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just a note that I created that redirect after de-orphaning the finger sandwich: see diff and diff. Wbm1058 (talk) 20:40, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Index/create list, and add Salmon burger/fish burger, Tuna fish sandwich, and Fischbrötchen from the above. -- Tavix ( talk ) 21:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Index per Tavix. --Rubbish computer 22:17, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Convert to Index per Tavix -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:17, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Çomment''. For Fish burger, I've created a very much Draft:Fish burger which we could move over and redirect. At the moment it is nowhere near article quality but I was drifting towards that instead of a set index, however, I am happy if the draft is deleted and we go with set index, just offering it up for your consideration. There is nothing to say a set index can't have a bit of waffle at the top to put it into context, so we could kinda do both. Si Trew (talk) 06:17, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * But not Fishfinger sandwich. "Fishfinger" is one of those words that have become fused over time, and we should have the spelling variant. I am not entirely happy with Fish burger perhaps that is better deleted. Si Trew (talk) 06:19, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Index/list per the above, and yes include fish burger, fishburger, etc. Whatever fish sandwiches are notable, as common generic types, or major products.   — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

World of Encyclopediacraft



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. --BDD (talk) 14:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * World of Encyclopediacraft → Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an MMORPG (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_of_Encyclopediacraft&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

While this topic is fine for a WP: space essay, it is not a valid article topic, even as a redirect to WP: space. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:59, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete as a cross-namespace redirect. shoy (reactions) 19:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong delete per above. --Rubbish computer 22:16, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong delete per WP:XNR as above. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:42, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete nice name but is a cross-namespace redirect -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:CNSR. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 16:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete as all above. For if not, we should have Encyclopaediacraft or Encyclopediacraft, which we have not got. Si Trew (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My new redirect is at WOE. Admins, per above, you can delete my redirect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luis150902 (talk • contribs) 04:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Move without redirect to World of Wikipediacraft. It's a funny not-very-shortcut, just doesn't belong in mainspace.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Public Square



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was move Public Square (disambiguation) over redirect. There's definitely consensus against the Cleveland place being primary topic, but less agreement on how to proceed. This appears to be the simplest solution, supported by most participants. --BDD (talk) 14:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Public Square → Public Square, Cleveland (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Public_Square&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

A few hours ago, Public Square was changed from a redirect to Town square to a disambiguation page. I've fixed the links, and redirected it to what appears to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, Public Square, Cleveland. However, because of the changes of today, I feel that a discussion is appropriate. I see a few options: My vote is to leave the redirect alone, but again, I feel that a discussion to gauge consensus is appropriate. -Niceguyedc Go Huskies! 09:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Leave the redirect to Public Square, Cleveland as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. 81 of the 83 incoming links to Public Square were meant for Public Square, Cleveland (the other two were meant for Town square).
 * 2) Change the redirect to Town square. Public square already redirects to Town square, so this would match that redirect (there is also a hatnote on Town square pointing to Public Square, Cleveland).
 * 3) Delete the redirect and move Public Square (disambiguation) to Public Square.
 * You are quite right to bring it here. It is, after all, redirects for discussion, not deletion, whatever Twinkle and other tools try to persuade you otherwise.
 * Comment. A public square, a plaza or Hungarian piac (Market), is not specifically this place in Cleveland. It is as likely to be the forum (DAB on which first entry is Forum (Roman)), according to history. I don't think anyone is arguing that it geometrically must be a square but a -> public space. I don't think it should be deleted, but retargeted somehow, I offer up suggestions. Si Trew (talk) 13:01, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I was never under any belief that this was redirects for deletion, and no tool is going to persuade me of anything. I cleaned up a mess created by someone else, and instead of unilaterally making a decision, which I could have done by not starting this discussion, I did start the discussion. -Niceguyedc Go Huskies! 08:53, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to suggest you were, I can see in hindsight the comment I made at the top was rather patronising. Sorry about that, but I wanted to set out my stall that I myself wanted to rule out deletion from the discussion. Sorry to patronise you, completely unintentional. Si Trew (talk) 09:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose option 1 If the place in Cleveland is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Public Square", that should be its title. ", Cleveland" is disambiguation (NATURAL disambiguation is disambiguation too!) and should only be present if necessary. Thus, I'd suggest option 4 be moving Public Square, Cleveland to Public Square. I'm not saying that's what I want to happen, but it should be on the table. --BDD (talk) 13:27, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. Quite right to put it on the table, but I think that is ridiculous. That would be to suggest that Cleveland's public square is the only public square in the world, or at least the most prominent one (PRIMARY, as you say). Patently it is not. I can think of many more public squares more prominent than Cleveland's.
 * I think best to R to the DAB, and move the DAB at Public Square (disambiguation) over this, although I want to add to that as it does not list many public squares. I am not sure quite how far we go with what is a public square, for example Trafalgar Square or Times Square should be at that DAB. In the absence of List of public squares or anything similar (i.e. places in the middle of a city for people to assemble to party or protest) then we have to make a start somehow. Clevelend does not stand out as being an exceptionally partying city or protesting city. Victory Square is in Nineteen Eighty-Four as a deliberately thinly disguised version of Trafalgar Square, and that's a DAB in its own right, mostly from the Soviet Union, so that gives us kinda a precedent for how we name these things.


 * I can see a list or DAB coming along here, but not sure how far I should go with it. In Budapest where I live, there are lots of tiny little "square"s that are not very notable. Si Trew (talk) 15:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

*Procedural close, please, I have converted this into an article (a stub) listing squares, and so is no longer a redirect. Si Trew (talk) 15:24, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget back to Public Square, Cleveland with an other uses hatnote. Public Square is a named landmark in Cleveland, exactly like Central Park which I note is not a dab listing every park at the centre of a town or district. Roughly option 1, although what BDD said is also correct and I would not be opposed to moving Public Square, Cleveland over the redirect dab that Si made. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:40, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Side note: why does Hyde Park, London not live over the dab at Hyde Park? Looking into it. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, Ivanvector, I think I had an with you maybe, I thought it was with BDD but I checked and wasn't, and I checked the history to make sure I hadn't trampled any other's comments. It said there was an ec but I couldn't find one in the history, so if I have trampled yours or BDDs please take that as a mistake, I did check as best I could.


 * Tricky one this isn't it. I still don't think that someone searching for "Public square" will be looking for the particular place in Cleveland, I think they are more likely to be looking for "what is a public square". That being said, we are not WP:DICDEF and I hadn't bothered to looup Wiktionary, and having now done so, it doesn't have it, so that's about as much use as a snake in an arse-kicking competition.


 * Obviously my stuff is essentially WP:OR to define what a public square is by giving examples of (to my mind) public squares. But perhaps it should just go red, then, cos I can't see that Public Square (Cleveland) is what people are likely to want to find, that is WP:SURPRISE). I haven't looked at Hyde Park yet (deliberately not linking) and my opinion on that I shall give shortly or list it at RM if worthwhile, but we might as well discuss it here first rather than make work for each other. Si Trew (talk) 15:49, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The gotcha is in the caps. You wouldn't expect public square to be anything other than a redirect to town square, but Public Square you can reasonably expect to be a named place, or a list of them if there are several. There don't seem to be several. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:51, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I had noticed that. The thing is many (most?) ways of searching are case-insensitive, and there is the gotcha, so I think WP:DIFFCAPS has kinda got weaker over the years as WP's search engine has got stronger, I feel the argument to differentiate by capital letters is far far harder to make than it was, say, six years ago. I mean I know I am a quarter of a world away from Cleveland, so perhaps I have kinda undue prejudice because it is "a long way away" (though actually I have flown from there on a little Beechcraft across Lake Ontario to Canadaland), but I just not sure this is WP:WORLDWIDE really. Si Trew (talk) 09:24, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support Option 2: Basically, a Public square is another word for town square in most places. I don't understand why it should redirect to the Cleveland's public square. That's not the primary topic.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 16:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget with Jamie, to Town square. Much better idea. redirects to Town Square (Las Vegas), though... and Town Square (disambiguation) and Town square (disambiguation) are red so that is a needless disambiguation. Have can will worms. Si Trew (talk) 16:13, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Public Square, Cleveland should be moved back to Public Square, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:DIFFCAPS. This is how we had things from 2006 until this past July, when Jamie Tubers moved the article without discussion. - Eureka Lott 16:46, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I cannot see for the life of me why the name of a place in one town, however big that town, should be a WP:SURPRISE to anyone who is not from Cleveland. I do not see how it is at all the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC when we have town square or Forum (Roman), what is the difference in meaning. has gone to Town square  since 2004, which trumps EurekaLott's, and although WP:DIFFCAPS I really do not see that it is that much. Si Trew (talk) 22:21, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This is precisely what WP:DIFFCAPS is intended to address. Public square points to town square, as it should, and a correctly-hanoted Public Square article should be about the square in Cleveland. That was what we had for the better part of a decade before it was disrupted a few months ago. - Eureka Lott 22:52, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I see your point, I think, but saying "We always did it this way" is not a very convincing argument, the question is "what do we do now?". I can see an argument for keeping it to preserve history, external links and so on, but if we followed that to the exclusion of all others then we'd never change anything (we wouldn't even add text to articles, for example), so of itself I don't see that being very convincing. I agree with you the disruption was unhelpful, but the question is what do we do with it now, after that disruption has taken place? Si Trew (talk) 09:16, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're putting words in my mouth. All I said is that we had things right, and that we had them right for a long time. I cited relevant guidelines, and all you've offered is a WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT argument. - 15:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, have I? I thought I had offered a selection of choices of where we might retarget it. Certainly I don't like it, but now you are putting words in my mouth. I tend to quote policy more than others because some editors like to be quoted policy, but I don't give a shit about policy but what is better for the encyclopaedia (essentially, WP:IAR if you must). I just feel that with search engines these days the DIFFCAPS is becoming a bit irrelevant. This is very hard to justify, I admit, because the search results are case-insensitive. We must, here at RfD, kinda second-guess what people might be looking for, hits sometimes are playing a blinder in that way that they can misinform. I really don't know, but we have to fix it somewhere, and at least sending it to the DAB confuses nobody. Si Trew (talk) 20:02, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll go with that as an, makes sense to me. Si Trew (talk) 09:30, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * DISAMBIGUATE replace with Public Square (disambiguation) -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 05:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Disambiguate. --Rubbish computer 15:42, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Dabify It seems that we can't get a primary topic for this one -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:23, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Query, : Do you mean that you'd want Public Square (disambiguation) moved to Public Square? -- Tavix ( talk ) 21:22, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I do, whereas I cannot speak for Lenticel, but assumed this is what he meant. --Rubbish computer 21:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yup. That's what I meant. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 13:46, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 14:59, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Move over DAB Public Square (disambiguation) to Public Square, with the ever-sensible Lenticel. There is a problem for every solution. Si Trew (talk) 17:26, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget to town square and Move Public Square (disambiguation) to public square (disambiguation) (no caps) without leaving a redirect. If there is no consensus that the park named Public Square is the sole significant landmark with this exact title and we should redirect to the general topic instead, then we should follow the treatment of town square (disambiguation) and city square (disambiguation). On those dabs, there is a general description along with a list of named landmarks. There is no Town Square (disambiguation) nor City Square (disambiguation), City Square redirects to town square, and Town Square is up for a discussion which looks to be concluding with a retarget to the general topic as well. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget to town square. Only people local to (or frequent visitors to) Cleveland would think that's a proper name for a square there.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Clamshell Laptop



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Clamshell Laptop → Laptop (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clamshell_Laptop&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

No plausible target, the best is IBook, but I suspect readers would be looking for a more general topic. - TheChampionMan1234 10:06, 20 September 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete Term is not in common use. I can find no references to anything outher than the iBook Clamshell mentioned above. I see no indication the term is used as a generic at all. J bh  Talk  11:56, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That seems very surprising, have you looked at 80's and 90's sources? -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 05:22, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak retarget to IBook per ChampionMan, iff that is the only notable product known by the name. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget per TCM1234. Rubbish computer 19:21, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget, but to Clamshell, a DAB. Redundant but harmless. Si Trew (talk) 00:33, 21 September 2015 (UTC)is eating oysters
 * Keep. Per the lede: "A laptop or a notebook is a portable personal computer with a clamshell form factor, suitable for mobile use." In other words, a "clamshell laptop" is a laptop, and my research backs that up. It seems to be used in comparison to tablets ("tablet laptops") or other primitive forms. -- Tavix ( talk ) 04:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep clearly a lack of historical context for the history of laptops. There are a large number of non-clamshell laptops out there from the beginnings of laptops. Clamshell was used frequently to distinguish between the two. -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 05:22, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment'. Clamshell notebook is red, Clamshell tablet is red. Clamshell is a DAB, it seems that nobody knows (or rather is not primary topic) what a Clam is (they taste lovely) or its shell, so this has changed meaning. Checking around, Oyster shell would be my next guess (although linneanly oysters and clams are only vaguely related), and Oystershell is a DAB, but Oystershell laptop and Oyster shell laptop are red. Shellac is blue, fortunately. Si Trew (talk) 19:20, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Notebooks do not exist from that era, and tablets are so new as to not have existed a few years ago, and tablets don't open physically. Lack of historical context means trying to look for clamshell notebooks, when the era of distinguishing between clamshells and non-clamshells had already passed by then. With historical context, you wouldn't not expect the term "clamshell notebook" to show up, because all notebooks are too new to have existed in that era. -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 03:12, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my problem is essentially this term was invented as a metaphor for a clam shell or oyster shell. It's probably more suited to Wiktionary, though I am the primary contributer to here and we could do that way if we had RS. You're saying we don't have RS, which is a bit of a challenge then for me to find some! But I agree it is kinda a word that lived and died very shortly. I agree about the tablet, I just threw that in as a juxtaposition, but I think we still have clamshell phones, but nobody calls them that now, and that is an R to Flip (form), so it's tricky isn't it. On a technical point, we have to be careful with clamshell and clam shell. You can't have it both ways, I think, clam shell redirects to clamshell but the idea of it being the shell of a clam has been entirely lost in doing so. Si Trew (talk) 06:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Thaïlande



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep. --BDD (talk) 14:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thaïlande → Thailand (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tha%C3%AFlande&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not particularly French. - TheChampionMan1234 10:02, 20 September 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Weak Delete since it seems that the two countries have some shared history (see France–Thailand relations). I was thinking we could redirect this to Names of Thailand but we don't have that article yet. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 10:33, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:FORRED as a redirect from an unrelated foreign language. Rubbish computer 19:22, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's not (modern) French, that's just wrong. Even if it were, it should be rcatted as . Si Trew (talk) 00:30, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - directs readers to the content they're looking for, no rationale has been suggested for deletion.  (Nevermind the suggest it's unrelated to French is a remarkably short view of history.  I wasn't aware the world was only a hundred years old. Wily D  12:36, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - There's a tangled history between France and Thailand that makes this a plausible search term, even here on an English Wikipedia, as stated above. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:31, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete . It is not that it is "not particularly French", it is that it is not French. The Academie Francaise has abolished the double dotted I, but we still use it here, it seems (and over at FR:WP). It is tagged already as,  is tagged already as , but not R from other language, that is a bit of a piggy in the middle. Si Trew (talk) 17:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - I'm with Si in thinking that ï is not a valid diacritic in French, assuming as the discussion above has that this is meant to be a redirect from French, but Thaïlande does seem to be the proper French spelling (c.f. fr:Thailande redirects to fr:Thaïlande). Its only link is from a confusing and badly formatted list at François Goetghebeur which explains the just-slightly-above-noise level of hits. WP:RFD applies. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 01:33, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We have it in English on the word naive but even then that is rather outdated. Niaf, Niave in French do not have the double dot any more. We don't have born yesterday, but we are WP:NOTDIC. Si Trew (talk) 07:02, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're right and I amn wrong, I checked those also. If we were to have thousands of them, we would have to think again, but apart from -> Naivety)  and a few proper nouns, this does no harm at all, so keep, does no harm. It is not as if suddenly we are going to get ïreland or ïndonesia and nonsense like that~as some kind of Heavy metal typography. Si Trew (talk) 07:08, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep as name attested in historical sources (and in a then-relevant language); whether it suits 2015 French typography is irrelevant.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

The Rat Room



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. Deryck C. 23:58, 11 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The Rat Room → Havelock Vetinari (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Rat_Room&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

As someone noted on the talk page, this Discworld location is actually called the Rat Chamber. "Rat room" makes me think of Room 101, and maybe The Rathskeller. is largely unhelpful, not returning any of these uses. Pages about rooms for pet rats are included. There's a song called "Rat Room" (not "The") on Sex (Tila Tequila EP). Deletion would be my first choice, with retargeting to the EP a distant second. --BDD (talk) 14:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom as there appears to be no suitable target. --Rubbish computer 15:53, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - I would be quite happy seeing this retargeted to Ministries of Nineteen Eighty-Four (Room 101's target) but I think this is unlikely to be a primary usage, and a bit too far of a stretch. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 01:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - I feel very tempted to just link this over to where "Room 101" goes, as mentioned above, given that the strong association, but since there's no primary usage in common parlance... I think we should just leave the text red. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 06:33, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete, no primary target.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Scott Hilley



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. --BDD (talk) 14:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Scott Hilley → Squidbillies (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scott_Hilley&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Seems misguided. Not his only role. WP:Redlink Beerest 2 Talk page 14:36, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and per WP:REDLINK in case there is potential for an article. --Rubbish computer 15:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete to encourage article creation -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Template:Railway line Israel Hod HaSharon Sderot



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedily deleted by RHaworth under criterion WP:CSD. Thryduulf (talk) 10:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Template:Railway line Israel Hod HaSharon Sderot → Template:Railway line Israel Hod HaSharon Be'er Sheva (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Railway_line_Israel_Hod_HaSharon_Sderot&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Template:Railway line Israel Hod HaSharon Rishon LeZion → Template:Railway line Israel Hod HaSharon Be'er Sheva (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Railway_line_Israel_Hod_HaSharon_Rishon_LeZion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Orphaned, an old line now extended. The template has been moved to its proper location, and all uses have been retargetted. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nicely done but WP:RFD is not the place to take it, I guess it said you should come here first. I've taken both via WP:G7 author requests deletion.altooiugh WP:G6 housekeeping would serve as well. Marked and so forth. Cross your fingers and this should be procedural close in a day or so. Thanks for the hard work at the targets, it looks great. Si Trew (talk) 08:10, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * On the junction to Rahsan Lod we usually put a right arrow on it, but the RDT are trickyt things cos originally in German, it makese sense in German, I will have a go but please feel free to revert. Si Trew (talk) 08:28, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Fish burger



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget to Fish sandwich. "Welcome to Fish Burger, home of the Fish Burger, can I take your order?" --BDD (talk) 14:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Fish burger → Hamburger (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fish_burger&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I'm really not sure on this so I offer it for discussion. My first thought was it should go to McDonalds' Filet-O-Fish (I think that is how it is spelled but your menu may vary). Si Trew (talk) 04:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I actually got it right first time, kinda astonished with that. I meant to say, also, please see the discussion on below; fishburger is red. I didn!t think to check chicken &c so I will do s as part of the discussion below. Si Trew (talk) 04:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Retarget to Filet-O-Fish since that's the most popular (I think) "fish-burger" that's around in the English-speaking world. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 06:58, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Only on the Jewish Sabbath, at least originally, according to Bryson, was invented by a franchisee for his Jewish customers. Haven't looked at the article, on purpose (kinda keeps my mind concentrated on the redirects not the content). Si Trew (talk) 18:38, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete Oppose retargeting to Filet-O-Fish since this phrase has no connection to its current target, is not an alternate name for Filet-O-Fish. and there is no apparent alternate target. Steel1943  (talk) 07:04, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I slightly changed vote due to alternate topics of Fishcake and Salmon burger being presented below. However, if a good alternate target cannot be determined through the course of the conversation below, then delete per WP:XY since I do not feel that a disambiguation page would be appropriate per what has been presented thus far. Steel1943  (talk) 19:21, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Retarget to fishcake. Our article on the salmon burger says it's "a type of fishcake". - Eureka Lott 15:42, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak retarget per Eurekalott. --Rubbish computer 15:55, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Here's a crazy idea: Move Salmon burger over redirect and expand the scope to include other types of fish. -- Tavix ( talk ) 16:13, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * How would we keep a fish burger article from duplicating the fishcake article? There would be an awful lot of overlap. - Eureka Lott 16:29, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The same way there isn't a whole lot of overlap now. They aren't the same thing: a fish burger is just one "dish" that you can make with fishcakes. -- Tavix ( talk ) 16:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you must have a different understanding of what a fishcake is. In British English, it is a kinda compacted and usually battered or breaded ready-made food, essentially a fish finger. I guess from what you are saying, you are implying that it is a block of white fish that can be used as an ingredient? Si Trew (talk) 18:34, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Read the salmon burger article, and your question shall be answered. -- Tavix ( talk ) 18:48, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * with Steely. Oh, come off it Tavix. Perhaps the can of worms I opened attracted the fish. I am reluctant to read the targets for the reason that what is someone likely to search for, not that one has special knowledge when one gets there. We don't have Perch burger or Pike burger or Bream burger for example. That is just even more leading us down the garden path. Si Trew (talk) 19:33, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Per your vote, it seems like the phrase "fish burger" should be vacated for a broad-concept article with Salmon burger being a subtopic. In that regard, "delete per WP:REDLINK" may be more appropriate so that Salmon burger can remain a standalone article from the article which it is a subtopic. [[User:Steel1943|Steel1943 ]] (talk) 19:29, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I am not sure about that. a burger is essentially Mince (food) (but not minced food) and the DAB at Mince is very US'-centric by the way, nobody but the Americans call minced beef ground beef, and mince is not specifically about beef but anything you whack through a mincer. To mince, aslo in Br. Eng. means to be a camp gay, but we haven't that listed. Anyway, we are WP:NOTRECIPE. I think to enumerate every possible type of cheap fish bread products would be unproductive for us, even if profitable for Findus. Si Trew (talk) 19:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of invoking WP:NOTRECIPE as well, but then I found List of hamburgers. It's not a list of recipes, but rather, a list of recipe examples. But, for a list of "fish burgers", since fish as food isn't exclusive to one species of fish, such an article could be less of a recipe list than even List of hamburgers. Steel1943  (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * , not necessarily, especially because I don't see how you would have enough information for different articles on all the different types of fish burgers. The salmon burger really isn't all that different from others, from what I can tell, so preventing overlap would be hard. (I wish I had enough time to create a draft.) -- Tavix ( talk ) 19:59, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I do have time on my hands and will happily create a draft for y'alls consideration, but I am not sure what it should be a draft for, an article about fish burgers or a DAB? I would DAB it, but I can probably make a stub about Clarence Birdseye and so forth, and Frosted food, and the Cod War (Britain vs. Iceland, we won) and whatever. I am just not sure what direction I should take that article even as draft. Si Trew (talk) 05:27, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: This may or may not be related to this discussion ... but I find it a bit WP:ASTONISH-ing that Fish sandwich redirects to Fish finger sandwich. Does this seem as related to this ongoing discussion as I think it does? (Pinging two.) Steel1943  (talk) 20:04, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It would be a "see also" entry at the fish burger article, but I wouldn't call a fish finger sandwich a fish burger. -- Tavix ( talk ) 20:07, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought about the same a few seconds after I posted the aforementioned statement. See my edit conflicted statement below. Steel1943  (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, probably not since this conversation seems to be in reference to fish patties and not fish sandwiches. So, the article Patty ... there may be something there for considering in relation to this discussion. Steel1943  (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that's true... what is a fish sandwich. In Penny Lane (song) there is the line "a four of fish-and finger pies" but I think it must have been one of John Lennon's bad days crowbarred in to fit the rhyme cos nobody calls them fish-and-finger pies (with or without the hyphens) do they? Si Trew (talk) 05:22, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * REtarget to fish sandwich which has been nominated further up in RfD and seems to be trending towards becoming an SIA, so a perfect target for fish burger. Oppose "Filet-O-Fish" since WP:ADVERT we should not advertise MCDonalds here. Oppose replacing with "salmon burger" since many fish burgers do not use salmon nor have a salmon taste. If "fish sandwich" does not become a set index, then this should become one instead. because not all fishburgers use fishcake patties, some use grilled fish -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 03:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Çomment. I've started to make a draft over at Draft:Fish burger, very skeletal at present. To my intense satisfaction, fishburger.com is not registered, and I might buy it and put something silly on its home page. Si Trew (talk) 05:56, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Is it only me that uses crowbar as a verb to me to try to get something in where it doesn't fit, or more accurately to extract it therefrom? I s that just me? Si Trew (talk) 14:04, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * this is quite a good image of what I imagine a fishburger looks like. """" — Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonTrew (talk • contribs) 14:12, 30 September 2015


 * retarget to fish sandwich at least until such time as someone creates an article. Mangoe (talk) 15:12, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fish sandwich is a redirect, and also nominated at . Steel1943  (talk) 15:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my response here is predicated on the other ending as a disambig, which seems likely at this point. Mangoe (talk) 15:27, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Retarget to the future index fish sandwich. I'm happy my previous idea got a lot of discussion, but we've got a better option now. -- Tavix ( talk ) 16:02, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget to the work-in-progress set index at fish sandwich. Oppose retargeting to Filet-O-Fish as unduly promotional. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Template:Subst:ncd
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">


 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. --BDD (talk) 14:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Template:Subst:ncd → Template:Now Commons (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Subst:ncd&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

To transclude this template, must be used, as otherwise Template:Ncd would be substituted. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 01:34, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, this is a good one. I would almost say that creation of pages with "subst:" anywhere in at the beginning of (Change to wording. Steel1943  (talk) 17:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)) a page's title should be added to the title creation blacklist due to causing technical issues since "subst:" is used in template functions. (Yes, I am aware that the capital "S" prevents this template from being substituted, but the first letter of a page in any namespace is always capitalized by default, even when the link starts with a lowercase letter.) So, with this being said, I think this should be deleted, but with the alternative of weak retarget to Template:Now commons dated since Template:Ncd redirects there. Either way, I strongly suggest my addition to the title creation blacklist as suggested above (thus, I really do support deletion over retargeting.)  Steel1943  (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete it with prejudice. Anyone dabbling in template namespace should know what they're on about, and it is not as if it went to Template:subst:ncd as an . {{:Template:Subst} aksi redirects the same way as does Template:subst. I don't see the need for the :ncd but I can see the harm that it causes for editors finding four redirects to the same template, the harm is WP:ASTONISHment. Si Trew (talk) 06:34, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't know what Si Trew is on about with multiple redirects and astonishment here, but I cannot see any reason for having a template with a name starting "subst:" (of any capitalisation) per Steel1943. Thryduulf (talk) 10:55, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I can understand you don't understand, because I just whacked it in the search engine and got surprising results, which I tried to report, obviously badly. I agree starting it with subst: is just asking for trouble, though. Should we add Template:subst:ncd to this nomination? Si Trew (talk) 05:32, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per Steel1943. --Rubbish computer 15:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete This is "user-hateful".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Just One Day
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">


 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was move Just One Day (disambiguation) over redirect (cf. WP:MALPLACED). --BDD (talk) 14:31, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Just One Day → Skool Luv Affair (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Just_One_Day&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

"Just One Day" is also a book by Gayle Forman and this redirect may confuse people. It is also stated that this is a song title, to artist's page which is invalid. &mdash;Skyllfully (talk &#124; contribs) 01:13, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete: hmm? 333-blue 01:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep as a valid R from song. Per the information above, I also support disambiguation if there is proof of multiple existing encyclopedic subjects existing that will allow a disambiguation page to be created that will meet MOS:DAB standards. Also, the nomination statement seems incorrect: this redirect targets an album, not the album's artist. Steel1943  (talk) 01:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * DAB it, and R to the DAB at Just Another Day. One More Day could be crosslisted there also as that is also a DAB. It seems that these and similar titles are very popular with our outhinking, creative musicians....Si Trew (talk) 04:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * By the way,, School love affair and caps variants (School Love Affair) are all red, unless I missed one. Skool luv affair is red, Skool luv is red, Skool Luv is red, School love is red, but Down with Skool (a book by Nigel Molesworth) is blue. Si Trew (talk) 05:01, 29 September 2015 (UTC) The homework boy


 * Comment - Noting that there are multiple songs (and TV episodes as well, I think) with this title, another example being on Peace by Anything Box, I went ahead and created Just One Day (disambiguation). CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 07:09, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * retarget to dab page then swap the redirects (so the dab page is at the plain title and the "(disambigutation)" gets an appropriate tag for a WP:INTDABLINK redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 10:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget to dab page per Thryduulf. --Rubbish computer 15:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Just One Day (disambiguation) per above -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:19, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Hamburger bun
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 October 6%23Hamburger bun