Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 January 5

January 5
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on January 5, 2016.

沙盒



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete and salt with an edit summary directing users to Sandbox. This seems to be the emerging compromise in the latter part of this discussion. Deryck C. 17:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Addendum: Steel1943 very helpfully pointed out that you can put up an edit notice on a non-existent page: Template:Editnotices/Page/沙盒 Deryck C. 20:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)


 * 沙盒 → Wikipedia:Sandbox (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E6%B2%99%E7%9B%92&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Requesting delete and salt per WP:R. It was created due to the fact that Chinese editors were using it as a sandbox, but the proper solution to that problem would be to WP:SALT it instead of creating an ill-suited cross-namespace redirect. Since it's also a foreign-language redirect and sandboxes have no affinity for the Chinese language, WP:RFOREIGN also applies here. -- Tavix ( talk ) 06:58, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete and salt per nom. Target is not the encyclopedic topic for this term. This term is not a particularly Chinese topic. Chinese Wikipedians who are writing sandbox material for Chinese Wikipedia should do it on Chinese Wikipedia. If they are doing it for English, then the WikiData interwiki links should lead them from one language to another, with the proper WikipediaProjectSpace pagenames, so looking at the Chinese Wikipedia sandbox's English interlink should lead them to the proper English language sandbox page. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 10:53, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep if it is still in use, else Delete . I created the redirect because Chinese-language users were consistently mistaking it for en.wp's sandbox since 2005. When this redirect was brought up for discussion in 2011, it was noted that the CNR was still getting hits three years after its creation (2008). If the redirect is no longer receiving traffic, then it should be deleted. Otherwise, it should stay. (Note that Wikipedia is VERY spotty at the best of times in China due to censorship, and local users may not particularly trust zh.wp.) — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 11:31, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment 沙盒 has been created once and deleted, and it looks like there's never been an attempt to create 维基百科:沙盒, which is the Chinese version of its name. Peter James (talk) 11:59, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. Looking at the stats, this redirect's usage seems only a little lower than in 2011, around 70/mo, so little has changed since then. I agree that a lot of foreign language redirects, many of which targeted for example the Main page, do not belong on the English Wikipedia and have been deleted, but this one is "grandfathered in" (at least until, as Jeremy says, it's no longer used). Happy holidays!  Paine   17:37, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It's too recent to be grandfathered in. Peter James (talk) 00:44, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * If seven+ years is "too recent", then I would be forced to agree with you. It was created in September of 2008.  That's longer than I've been a registered user.  Are you certain that seven+ years is "too recent"?   Paine   05:22, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Originally there was no project namespace, so pages had titles such as Wikipedia utilities. Most of the redirects were deleted in 2006 but some survived, and it's sometimes suggested that old redirects such as these are grandfathered in (although they are probably no more useful than the deleted redirects). Creation of new cross-namespace redirects has been discouraged since then. Peter James (talk) 12:26, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for the history lesson. This is not a "new" CNR, is it?  Other-language redirects are generally deleted because Wikidata makes them unnecessary.  That is not the case here, as its usefulness that saved it at the previous RfD makes this one still necessary.  Until another solution is found, to delete this redirect would slam the door on the editors who still use it. Happy holidays!  Paine   11:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Retarget to Sandbox. This would solve half the issue: though still an inappropriate redirect from a foreign language (as sandbox is not a a topic related to that language), it would no longer be a cross-namespace redirect. Sandbox (a disambiguation page) has a large banner serving as a hatnote directing to the Sandbox if that is the intended target. "沙盒" = "Sandbox", not "Wikipedia:Sandbox" ("维基百科:沙盒"), so "sandbox" is the proper unambiguous target, if this redirect is to exist. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 18:11, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That would be reasonable if the Chinese users weren't consistently thinking it was the Sandbox. I created the redirect as I did for a reason. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 22:22, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * If they can't find WP:Sandbox from Sandbox they're unlikely to be useful editors here. Peter James (talk) 00:44, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Most are probably learners/new editors, so their usefulness may grow just like yours/ours did. Happy holidays!  Paine  11:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Usage is lower for this than for Deletion policy. Peter James (talk) 14:44, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom: This isn't the Chinese Wikipedia. Also, precedence has resulted in deletion of redirects from foreign languages to aspects of Wikipedia itself: back in August of this year, all of the foreign language redirects to Main Page were nominated for deletion with consensus to delete. Steel1943  (talk) 17:05, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Never state the obvious This is a long-standing CNR that is an exception to the rule, and it should be kept until it's no longer useful. It's usefulness saved it at the previous RfD and should save it now. Happy holidays!  Paine   11:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ...And then, there will be other foreign language redirects created towards one of the "sandbox" titles. Keeping a foreign-language redirect that does not have a historical connection to its target is misleading and actually a bit harmful. For example, a Chinese-speaking person could be looking up this term to direct them to create a sandbox article in their native language, but then thanks to this redirect, have their search engine direct them to the English Wikipedia. Imagine if that happened to English words. Let's say that the term "Sandbox" existed on a Wikipedia whose language is not English and the native English reader did not understand that language: The reader would possibly be directed to the foreign language Wikipedia with no way of being able to figure out how to get to the page in their native language due to lack of understanding the page they are reading. We do not want to cause our readers in any language this confusion; it doesn't benefit anyone. Steel1943  (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You seem worried about something that "might" happen, but as yet it "has not" happened? The stats show that this redirect got about 70 hits a month over the past 3 months, which is just a little less than it was getting prior to the previous RfD linked above.  Doesn't this say that it does indeed benefit people?   Paine   19:45, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No, that information actually doesn't show if anyone is actually benefiting from this redirect. That information just shows that people are searching the term, not if they are arriving at their intended destination. Steel1943  (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Steel, did you look at the previous deletion log for the title? Almost all of it is Chinese users using the page as a sandbox. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 20:44, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No Jeremy v^_^v, but even if I did (I still haven't), it would not change my opinion. I strongly believe that this redirect should have the same fate as the foreign redirects to Main Page for similar reasons as why they were deleted, as stated above. Steel1943  (talk) 20:59, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You are correct in that this redirect should have the same fate as the foreign redirects to the English Main page, eventually. Those other-language redirects were no longer needed because Wikidata places links on the other-languages' Main pages directly to the English Main page.  That is not the case with this redirect.  People still use this redirect to get to its target, and when this redirect is no longer used by people to get to its target, only then should it again be renominated for deletion.   Paine   05:30, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * English Wikipedia is not the International all-languages Wikipedia. If we need such a thing, The WikiMediaFoundation should create an all-languages index site at mul.wikipedia.org (possibly just listing interlanguage links from WikiData) If the sandbox needs a Chinese language link, it should be an interlanguage link off of Chinese Wikipedia. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:40, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I will refer you to my comment above about zh.wp and Wikipedia's general spottiness in China. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 11:22, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 20:50, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * keep until such time as non-existent pages can have interlanguage links. There is no evidence presented or that I can find that people using this redirect are not arriving where they want to be, and evidence that it is useful. There is nothing inherently wrong with either cross-namespace or foreign language redirects, the problem comes when they are causing problems for people looking for English encyclopaedia articles, but the liklihood of that here is very very low. Thryduulf (talk) 23:00, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * A WikiData page for zh:wp:沙盒 and link to en:wp:sandbox already exists (wikidata:Q3938); (this setup already exists at zh:wp:关于沙盒 which goes to en:wp:about the sandbox ) The interlang link already exists on zh.wiki -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:53, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yet this redirect still gets ~70 hits/month. Curiouser and curiouser. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 20:33, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * And yet people treat English Wikipedia as the international any-language Wikipedia all the time, and we delete these redirects here and via CSD all the time. If this is deleted, then Chinese language users will then understand that this is not the any-language Wikipedia. Perhaps WMF will create an any-language Wikipedia index at http://mul.wikipedia.org if you ask them and point out the perennial problem of non-English on English Wikipedia. Chinese is patently not English, and the use of this redirect is for non-English non-encyclopedic purposes, so should necessarily not be on English Wikipedia. Perhaps a protected notice written in Chinese that English Wikipedia is not Chinese Wikipedia should be emplaced in a giant RED box. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 09:32, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Given that English is de facto lingua franca in many parts of the world, and also the largest Wikipedia, it doesn't surprise me greatly that people try to edit here in foreign languages, and I think that we can be a little more accommodating, and especially so here since Chinese is also spoken by oh quite a few people. Not that we should just keep all of these foreign-language cross-namespace redirects nor provide separate sandboxes in hundreds of different languages, but in a situation like this where editors are frequently doing the same thing, we can come up with a solution that's better than whatever is the Chinese for fuck off. What I'm saying is I'll bet the Gothic Wikipedia doesn't have this sort of problem with Inuktitut-speakers. (Also we do have two interlingua wikis: Interlingua Wikipedia and Interlingue/Occidental Wikipedia) Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:17, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Soft redirect per WP:IAR due to its apparent utility. The soft redirect allows a pause to explain to readers who might end up here inadvertently that they're being redirected out of article space, so that whatever it is that happens to be in the sandbox at that time is less WP:SURPRISEing. We could have a note in Chinese too if we feel like it. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 19:59, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Provided the soft-redirect is full-protected, that's reasonable. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 00:41, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Why full protect? Seems to me that creating the redirect solved the problem of Chinese users using the page as a sandbox, and nobots prevents it from being "fixed" by the double redirect robots (and they ignore soft redirects anyway). Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:28, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, creating the hard redirect did. If a soft-redirect was put in its place, they may very well resume mistaking it for the actual sandbox. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 20:30, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * You might be right, but I think it's better to apply protection if there's a new problem, not in anticipation of there being one. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:39, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Given the extensive deletion log on the title, I'd sooner have it full-protected if it turns into a soft redirect. If it gets deleted again, odds are it's going to be salted. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 20:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete and salt per nominator, with Ivanvector's soft redirect a second choice. Let me see if I understand the facts correctly: this is essentially a patch to prevent Chinese users from sandboxing in the wrong place (i.e., at this title)? While I can appreciate the impulse to accommodate people making this mistake, I also want it to be clear that this is not a legitimate or correct way of accessing the Wikipedia Sandbox, any more than Sandkasten or Hiekkalaatikko are. In the long run, I think we're better off sealing this off completely. Failing that, we should at least create a speed bump that tries to discourage this practice. --BDD (talk) 15:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Again, I created the redirect BECAUSE Chinese users were unanimously mistaking it for the Sandbox, and the redirect still sees ~70 hits/month. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 20:31, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think I understand that, but I believe we ought to discourage it. --BDD (talk) 20:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Discourage it how? When was the most recent CNR from mainspace to project space created, and why? — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 20:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Jeremy, I don't understand your second question. If you're asking about this CNR, you were the one who made it, so you'd be the one to answer. If you're asking about the most recent such CNR that exists, we'd have to go looking for what it is and who created it, which doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. --BDD (talk) 14:16, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * May I summarize? I think what this comes down to is whether you believe that we should enable users looking for a sandbox in Chinese to be bounced to Sandbox (in which case soft redirect and protect) or we should discourage it and let Chinese users figure it out for themselves like everyone else (in which case delete and salt). Personally, I think that ~70 hits/month warrants special treatment, and you'll note that we already have a bright notice atop our sandbox dab page to discourage users from playing in article space, so soft redirecting wouldn't be very far off the mark. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:57, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose soft redirect per BDD. (I already have a "delete" comment above, but I felt the need to make this opinion of mine clear as well.) Steel1943  (talk) 21:01, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Compromise? If it's deleted, but the deletion summary includes the link to Sandbox, wouldn't both sides be satisfied? Our Chinese users would get a link to the sandbox (like the "keeps" want), without needing the WP:IAR solution that currently exists. -- Tavix ( talk ) 21:12, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I suppose I could support that, along with create protection. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 04:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, maybe it could be mentioned in the salting comment? I considered this before but thought it unlikely because someone trying to access the Sandbox this way might not even have enough English skill to follow such a notice. But I suppose if they don't even speak that much English, we really don't want them editing (cf. WP:CIR). Sounds a bit harsh, but that's part of the reason we have so many other Wikipedias. --BDD (talk) 14:16, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Better off in the deletion summary. The protection log isn't visible when a regular user encounters a create-protected redlink, but the deletion log is. Actually I don't know what happens if we click on a create-protected title that hasn't already been created and deleted, I don't know of any examples. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * delete and make as much publicity to the reasons and to THE sandbox as possible as Tavix suggested. There is no reason for special treatment for Chinese readers with poor English language skills. BUT I do like the idea of a "multilingual" wikipedia, or at least a easy entry point so that readers (and potential editors) of any language can find their way to a language they can read (and write) from any language's wikipedia. But that should be a technical solution, not redirects from "all" languages. - Nabla (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Medical Foundation



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep. (non-admin closure) sst  ✈  05:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Medical Foundation → Freedom from Torture (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Medical_Foundation&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Delete - Many medical foundations exist. No need for disambiguation, as they are referred to by specific names, not just "the medical foundation". — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 00:56, 27 December 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Which, if any, of the organizations identified by Notecardforfree are referred to simply as "Medical Foundation"?
 * Keep This is a frequently used abbreviation of its former name, sometimes used without the full version. A hatnote could be added linking to a list, or if one does not exist, then to Category:Medical and health foundations. Peter James (talk) 01:43, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. As Godsy mentioned above, there are many Wikipedia articles about medical foundations (e.g. Sundaram Medical Foundation, Nicanor Reyes Medical Foundation, AIDS Medical Foundation, Palo Alto Medical Foundation, Ellison Medical Foundation, and the Queen Elisabeth Medical Foundation). I think we should delete and create a redlink to incentivize the creation of an article about the concept of medical foundations. Creating a DAB page is another option, but I that might start a different debate about whether organizations are really "medical foundations" or something else. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 02:56, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep this organisation is still referred to as "The Medical Foundation" (founded by the amazing Helen Bamber). There is no other organisation known by this name, so I see no reason to delete it, nor to create a disambiguation page. --NSH001 (talk) 08:12, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep, per Peter James and NSH001. This is not titled Medical foundation, but instead it shows the uppercase letter f to indicate a proper name (it would never be used to title a general article about medical foundations). Happy holidays!  Paine   18:17, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 20:49, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Based on the English language Wikipedia articles and a couple of google searches, none of the other organisations we have articles about are known simply as "Medical Foundation" (with any case) so any dab page would be a list of partial title matches - which wouldn't last long. Any list article would be at "List of medial foundations" or similar title, and would be best linked from the target by a hatnote. Thryduulf (talk) 23:06, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Monobook



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. This is a tough close, because there really isn't strong consensus for anything, but a typical "no consensus" verdict where nothing changes is clearly unsuitable, as no one has expressed support for the status quo. In general, we're advised to look for alternatives to deletion, so I won't typically delete in the case of no consensus; instead, I'd usually go with where most editors wanted to retarget. But here, there was no agreement on that either. And since relisting once only led to one further comment, I doubt another one would really lead to solid consensus.


 * This remains a weak decision, but I'd encourage editors to think twice before attempting to recreate either of these. With Monobook and Monobook.js * in existence, it might be best to just let deleted pages lie. --BDD (talk) 15:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * *Oh dear. Those don't even go to the same place. That might be worth another discussion... --BDD (talk) 15:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Monobook → Skin (computing) (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Monobook&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Monobook.js → Skin (computing) (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Monobook.js&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Monobook is one of the four skins available on Wikipedia, the other three being Vector (the default), Modern, and Cologne Blue. However, the target is about skins in computing in general rather than specifically the MediaWiki skins. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Added Monobook.js to the nomination as well, it fits the same rationale. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 02:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - "Monobook" is mentioned on several Wikipedia related articles, along with a Wikia article. None of them are good targets, as it is only mentioned in passing (so disambiguation isn't a good option in this case either). — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 02:33, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * keep if and delete otherwise delete monobook, keep/retarget monobook.js or delete otherwise I created that the monobook.js redirect and had it point to Skin. It was later changed to Skin (computing), effectively making the redirect useless: a person searching for "monobook.js" is a Wikipedia user learning how to customize things after reading some discussion. They want to know "What is it in relation to Wikipedia?". The original link answers that question fairly satisfactorily. The new link does not. I think the benefit to users outweighs the cost of adding a R to project namespace. Jason Quinn (talk) 10:56, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * So you're suggesting a retarget to Skin correct? On a side note: that would be a cross-namespace redirect. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 19:45, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm suggesting. If a person searches for this term they will be satisfied with the original target page and left puzzled by the current target. I am not against cross-namespace redirects when they make sense, nor are they forbidden. I think this is such a case (see Category:Cross-namespace redirects and its subcategory Category:Redirects to project space, in particular, for others). Falling into the trap of thinking that cross-namespace redirects are always bad violates Ignore all rules. Jason Quinn (talk) 22:18, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete monobook; soft redirect monobook.js to Skin so that the soft redirect can explain that the reader is being redirected out of article space. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 02:42, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget "monobook.js" to Skin. Soft Retarget "monobook" to MediaWiki -- Lenticel ( talk ) 02:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete both due to lack of an encyclopedic article about the actual subject of the redirects, and the fact that most readers are not Wikipedia editors, and thus usually do not know about the technical aspects of sure appearance skins, or better yet how to change the layout of the site at all. Steel1943  (talk) 04:00, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Non-editors aren't going to be searching for "monobook.js". Editors are, and those editors are going to have a harder time learning about "the technical aspects of sure appearance skins" and "how to change the layout" if this redirect is removed. Leaving this redirect harms nothing but keeping it does. Jason Quinn (talk) 21:34, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Your comment makes the assumption that no regular "fly-by" Wikipedia reader would ever look up this term: The redirect is in the article space, so there's no way to prove that, even with the ".js" at the end (since they could very well be looking up an article about the significance of this subject.) Steel1943  (talk) 02:47, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Why would a fly-by user search for monobook.js and be unhappy and surprised with the content of the cross namespace redirect? A scenario where that'd happen is not obvious to me. Jason Quinn (talk) 10:46, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Retarget to MediaWiki (the software that Wikipedia runs) and mention the skins there -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 11:00, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 20:48, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Skin or (soft redirect to) mw:Skin:MonoBook. This is a case in which I think a WP:CNR will actually be helpful, because a reader or new editor of Wikipedia will reasonably search for information about one of the standard Wikipedia skins by typing its name into the Wikipedia search box. Deryck C. 23:48, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Mitch Martin



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was procedural close. The article has been created. Thanks, Ivanvector! --BDD (talk) 21:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Mitch Martin → Old School (film) (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitch_Martin&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Redirect from a fictional character in a film to the title of the film he was in; the character is not particularly "famous" outside the context of that film, and would be in no way expected as a potential search term or a potential article in his own right. But much more importantly, this is actually sitting on top of a real-world automobile racer (see F1600 Championship Series) who would have a much stronger claim to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for this name than the fictional character does — if correcting this wrong link requires us to dab the autoracer while leaving the fictional character as plain title, then that's exactly bass ackward: if any redirect from the character's name is warranted at all, then the character should be dabbed and the auto racer undabbed, not vice versa. Delete. Bearcat (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Overwrite the redirect with an article about the racing driver, adding a hatnote the present target. Deletion is not required here. Thryduulf (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * There would have to be somebody knowledgeable (or with access to adequate sourcing) to do the overwriting. I am not that person; I know nothing of the sport, and have access to no sources that would help me write anything more than "Mitch Martin is a dude who exists, the end." But until the Wikipedian who is equipped with the knowledge and the reference tools to do it comes along, it's not appropriate for his name to remain in F1600 Championship Series as a link to the wrong topic — but dabbing him so that he's a redlink in that article is not appropriate either, as he's the primary topic for the name and the existing redirect is not, and unlinking him entirely so that the fictional character still has the undabbed title and the auto racer has nothing isn't appropriate either. So until the time comes that the article in question is ready to be written by somebody, in the interim the name needs to be a red link rather than a redirect to a minor, non-primary topic. Bearcat (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Article drafted. I did better than "he's a dude that exists" but not by a lot. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:56, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Hello Cthulhu



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. Deryck C. 21:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello Cthulhu → Cthulhu (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hello_Cthulhu&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Redirecting to a nonexistent section, this Cthulhu/Hello Kitty mashup isn't discussed anywhere on Wikipedia. --BDD (talk) 19:56, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:XY. No info about the mashup, so what's left refers equally to two disparate topics. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Swartvlerksprinkaanvoël
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">


 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. --BDD (talk) 15:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * <span id="Swartvlerksprinkaanvoël">Swartvlerksprinkaanvoël → Black-winged pratincole (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swartvlerksprinkaanvo%C3%ABl&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Delete. This bird has no specific affinity for Afrikaans. Gorobay (talk) 15:24, 5 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. This bird seems to be not endemic to Afrikaans speaking countries -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:26, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

List of most massive stars
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;">


 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was wrong forum - see Requested moves. Thryduulf (talk) 16:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)


 * List of most massive stars → List of most massive known stars (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_most_massive_stars&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

"Known" should be removed from the article title, per this WP:AST discussion. I'm unable to move "List of most massive known stars" to "List of most massive stars" because this redirect exists, and I'd rather do a proper move than a copy & paste move. ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅contribs ⋅dgaf) 15:15, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a request to move the redirect over the target. You should post the request at WP:RM; you can probably put this under "requests to revert undiscussed moves". Let us know if you need help. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:48, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Kshatriya Kunbi
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. --BDD (talk) 15:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Kshatriya Kunbi → Kunbi (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kshatriya_Kunbi&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This is another self-glorifying vanity redirect: the only people who use this name are POV-warriors etc from the caste itself who are trying to use Wikipedia to legitimise their mythological claim. A similar issue arose recently with the Andhra Kshatriyas redirect, which was deleted. Sitush (talk) 12:10, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Al-Anbaat
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget to Al Anbat. (non-admin closure) -- Tavix ( talk ) 00:32, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Al-Anbaat → Nabataeans (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Anbaat&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Misspelled Arabic word for these people, who are Arabs Legacypac (talk) 07:36, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

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 * Retarget to Al Anbat as a plausible misspelling. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 15:44, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deryck C. 11:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Al Anbat per Notecardforfree. Thryduulf (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Al Anbat per Notecardforfree. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 23:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Googology
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep. (non-admin closure) sst  ✈  05:22, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Googology → Large numbers (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Googology&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Delete. Seems to be used, but very rarely. See WP:MADEUP. A more common use seems to be studies of Google. MathWorld, often the first to create terms for quasi-mathematical concepts, doesn't have it. The redirect is the result of an article move and revert in August 2015, and has no history, in spite of the tag R from move. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. The page view statistics show this is a very well used redirect, and the nominator notes that the term is used even if infrequently. WP:MADEUP is not relevant to redirects, but to article content - if people use made-up words to refer to something that is not made up then we should have a redirect from that term. Thryduulf (talk) 14:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It seems that a more common use would be the study of Google, rather than of numbers like googol. Page use statistics won't help determine whether a redirect is pointing to the correct location, only whether it is used.  Perhaps a disambiguation page would be more appropriate.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 06:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - this was a page move error: . Its one mainspace use is in conway chained arrow notation, in a sentence containing "[...] a means of expressing certain extremely large numbers in googology." Seems in that case that it's a synonym, and we should keep it (but fix that sentence). I was thinking this might be better going to googolplex but the synonym use is better. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. There is clear consensus to change something and each of the non-deleting solutions (retarget / disambig) only has minority support. So closing as "no consensus on alternative, default to delete". Deryck C. 22:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ → Latin script (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * A.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.m.n.o.p.q.r.s.t.u.v.w.x.y.z. → Latin script (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=A.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.m.n.o.p.q.r.s.t.u.v.w.x.y.z.&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I am nominating this because I want to get the community's feedback about whether this is truly a useful redirect. Although this redirect receives a few hundred visitors every month, I wonder if either English alphabet or Letter (alphabet) are better targets? At the moment, ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ (song) redirects to Alphabet song. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 19:38, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz → ISO basic Latin alphabet (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

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 * Retarget to English alphabet as this is what the search term consists of. Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 23:25, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Retargeting to English alphabet might be WP:BIAS. It sort of depends on what you consider a letter. German orthography says that the German alphabet is also 26 letters, classifying the Eszett and umlaut letters as "Special characters" that "do not constitute distinct letters in the alphabet." By contrast, Spanish orthography cites 27 letters, with the eñe a distinct one. I would think Latin alphabet would be a better target than Latin script, though ABC's also redirects there. These 26 are definitely the ISO basic Latin alphabet, but that's a bit specialized and seems likely to WP:ASTONISH. At any rate, I'm adding a variant of this search string to the discussion. --BDD (talk) 04:59, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Dabify to the Alphabet song and the Latin script. It seems that the "ABC's" redirects go to either articles. I think for this redirect it can go to both articles. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:47, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Dabify to Latin script, English alphabet and Alphabet song; -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 11:02, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Latin alphabet, possibly delete the second one. Eman 235 / talk  08:22, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deryck C. 00:17, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - this is a nonsense search. Redirects aren't meant to catch every conceivable search to a target, only those which are likely or useful in some non-technical logical purpose. I highly doubt any of our readers are going to look for an article on the alphabet by typing the entirety of it out. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 05:30, 5 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Retarget both to Latin alphabet or disambiguate. Contrary to Ivanvector's speculation, the page view statistics show these redirects are actually used and so I see no reason to delete them. Thryduulf (talk) 14:30, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, you're right about the first one, it's quite frequently used but we don't know which target is being searched. Disambiguation is better, then. I suggest also adding Google Alphabet to the dab, as they recently made a lot of headlines for acquiring abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.com. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:07, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete the second one at least, and probably the first too. In this case, I don't think "nonsense search" and "frequently used" are a contradiction. How many readers, in a legitimate query for the Latin alphabet or script, will sit there and type out all 26 letters instead of trying Alphabet or something? I suspect many of these uses come from someone idly typing into the search box, seeing a suggestion, and clicking it on a lark. And the second one just seems ridiculously implausible. --BDD (talk) 15:10, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete all. This reminds me a lot of the discussion for 12345678. People see what they want to see out of it, but it could just as easily be a nonsense acronym or just a bunch of letters that happen to be in alphabetical order in a few languages. I do agree with BDD that some of the hits come from people trying it just to see where it goes and I'm not sure there's a target that would satisfy everyone who is deliberately looking for something in the noise. -- Tavix ( talk ) 20:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

<span id="Aaron Goldstein (rabbi)">Aaron Goldstein (rabbi)
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. This became a bit of a mess. The target article was redirected to Reform Judaism, but I can't find Aaron Goldstein mentioned in the history of either page based on the time stamp of Steel1943's comment. The redirect is clearly no longer functional, but I declare no prejudice against recreation if the subject is mentioned somewhere later. --BDD (talk) 15:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * <span id="Aaron Goldstein (rabbi)">Aaron Goldstein (rabbi) → Liberal Judaism (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aaron_Goldstein_(rabbi)&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

deletion, a most redundant redirect. AddMore der Zweite (talk) 16:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. The subject is mentioned in the article, but this may be the only thing the subject of the redirect is notable for. Steel1943  (talk) 16:18, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ' Redirect' to Aaron Goldstein (currently a DAB page) and create a redlink to encourage article creation. I didn't see an "Aaron Goldstein" mentioned in the article for Liberal Judaism, but I did see that an "Andrew Goldstein" is mentioned in the article. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * See MOS:DABRL. We shouldn't do that unless another article already links to Aaron Goldstein (rabbi), which is not the case. We could satisfy MOS:DABMENTION and include a link to Liberal Judaism, but at that point we're really better off keeping this as is unless there's another rabbi by this name. (You have Samuel Aaron Goldstein, but that's only worth a hatnote unless he actually goes by Aaron.) --BDD (talk) 16:09, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deryck C. 00:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Follow-up comment: Per BDD's comment, I am going to change my vote to delete because "Aaron Goldstein" is not mentioned in the article for Liberal Judaism and turning this into a redlink may encourage article creation. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 16:23, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

LSNSW
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget to Law Society of New South Wales. --BDD (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * LSNSW → Linnean Society of New South Wales (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LSNSW&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not abbreviated this way Legacypac (talk) 06:02, 24 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Speedy close A Google search on "LSNSW LINNEAN" reveals on the first page "www.mocavo.com/Proceedings-of-the-Linnean-Society-of-New-South-Wales-1901-Volume-26/702839/231", which shows that this acronym has been in use since 1901.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:37, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually searching just "Linnean" brings up only pages related to the society in the first 10 results, so that proves nothing. Search "LSNSW" and I found that any association with Linnean is largely mirrors or extracts from Wikipedia.  https://www.lawsociety.com.au/ is the top result. I don't doubt someone might have used LSNSW for the society at some point, it does not appear to be a common or primary use of this acronym, Legacypac (talk) 23:59, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

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 * Dabify I've drafted a two-item dab below the redirect, since the Law Society of New South Wales is also notable. This is a logical initialism for either, though I'd be fine with retargeting to one with a hatnote to the other if it can be demonstrated that it's usually associated with one or the other. --BDD (talk) 16:30, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deryck C. 00:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * retarget to Law Society of New South Wales with a hatnote to the present target. My (UK) google suggests that the law society is by far the primary user of this acronym. Thryduulf (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget and hatnote per Thryduulf. -- Tavix ( talk ) 03:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Angelic speech
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget to Angelic language. --BDD (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Angelic speech → Glossolalia (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Angelic_speech&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not really. Legacypac (talk) 07:04, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

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 * Comment we have a disambiguation page Angelic language, suppose we could either retarget this there or delete it. 210.6.254.106 (talk) 10:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deryck C. 00:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Angelic language  -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget per above. Thryduulf (talk) 14:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget per above. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:08, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Angelic language, this dab seems to be the closest plausible target/synonym -- Lenticel ( talk ) 23:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Zappa:References
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. JohnCD (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Zappa:References → Frank Zappa (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zappa:References&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This redirect just doesn't make any sense. Steel1943 (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete – useless, nothing salvageable from its history. sst ✈  04:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete subpage-type-redirect from 2003 using Zappa as a pseudonamespace for Frank Zappa topics -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:25, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.