Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 18

May 18
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on May 18, 2016.

List of people who were on or near the moon



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:23, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * List of people who were on or near the moon → List of Apollo astronauts (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_people_who_were_on_or_near_the_moon&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=List_of_people_who_were_on_or_near_the_moon stats])     [ Closure:  ]

people who were "on or near the moon" (whatever this means) is far more than the astronauts involved with the Apollo program Prisencolin (talk) 23:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete There is already the more probable search term of List of people who have walked on the Moon. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 00:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about this one. Several people were "near the moon" in the sense they were in orbiting craft but never got a chance to set foot on it. This would make sense to me as a title I have no problem with it. I think we do need to have a list of people who have not walked on the moon (not all of them obviously, I haven't walked on the moon for example) so I can see a value in such a list. Probably Delete per WP:REDLINK then. Did Alan Shepard (sp? the orbiting pilot on the first moon landing) ever get to walk on the moon I think he did in a later expedition but I am not sure, so this would be great for me to find out. To me as an ignorant but intelligent reader this is would be a useful thing to have. Si Trew (talk) 07:57, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I am using that as an example. Actually got the spelling right but deliberately have not checked if he ever got to step foot on the moon or not. That would be a value in this kind of list. Whether we could include cosmonauts I am not sure because they had no manned orbiters. Si Trew (talk) 08:10, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - "Near the Moon" is uncomfortably vague and unhelpful. After all, anyone that's gotten out of the Earth's atmosphere and been able to see the Moon plainly just though outer space has gotten "nearer" to the Moon than anybody else just going about their day. I also question whether this clunky wording would be actually used as a search term. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 08:37, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, that is not technically true. I am nearer to the moon when there is a neap tide than most people who have gone into low earth orbit when there is a spring tide, so I have got just as close as they have, perhaps closer, depending on how long they were there. But I see your point it is a bit meaningless, we might as well just have List of people and even then I would not make it because I am not notable. Si Trew (talk) 08:50, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, well, I was letting my mind wander a bit and I understand that variances in where the Earth is change what exactly it means as far as distance to the moon or to other celestial object. But, at any rate, the point of the initial sentence still stands: this is too vague and just unhelpful. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:36, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Newton, in fact
 * Made it quite exact
 * That's why I'm eccentric
 * And that is quite plentic Si Trew (talk) 03:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - incorrect target. Although all of the people who have been on the moon or in its orbit were Apollo astronauts, not all of the Apollo astronauts meet that criteria. The Apollo 7 crew pissed off management while in low earth orbit and never flew again, and of the three Apollo 1 astronauts who died on the launchpad one had never flown in space at all. If we retarget to the section Apollo astronauts who flew to the Moon without landing, then it's WP:XY. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:08, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Excellent points. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:36, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - or near = too vague. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 08:31, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete and I think this is a WP:SNOW. Si Trew (talk) 03:16, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Amastic



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep. Withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) SST flyer  12:05, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Amastic → Amastia (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amastic&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Amastic stats])     [ Closure:  ]

(neelix redirect) This is probably OK but need a second check on it. Do we have WikiProject medicine or something like that? Si Trew (talk) 23:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - I'm seeing solid-looking scientific publications using the wording in this exact kind of way. A clear-cut example is here, the book stating: "The difference between micromastia and amastia (actual absence of the breast) is that during pregnancy micromastic breasts enlarge, whereas amastic breasts do not". CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 08:58, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:47, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedily keep withdrawn by nominator. Thanks for the double check. Si Trew (talk) 08:48, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

The prime numbers



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete. Deryck C. 10:48, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The prime numbers → Prime number (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_prime_numbers&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=The_prime_numbers stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Not a useful redirect because we don't generally prefix "The" to plural nouns. This redirect resulted from Favonian reverting the move by Math Maniac. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 23:48, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Delete: Many articles could be given a "the" version, and they would all be useless: "The Himalaya Mountains", "The State of Maine", "The Chordates", .... Of course, if there were a book called The Prime Numbers (cf. The Periodic Table, that would appropriately be at The Prime Numbers. --Macrakis (talk) 05:18, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Weak Delete: A more mathematically concise term would be "The set of prime numbers" though I'm not sure that merits a redirect either. Otherwise, it seems like a pointless and likely little used redirect. Weak only because extraneous redirects are relatively harmless. mwalimu59 (talk) 16:56, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete: highly unlikely as a search term. I have no emotional attachment to it, even if I did sort of create it. Favonian (talk) 18:39, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - This reminds me of a joke someone made somewhere in a music blog I used to visit about the Pet Shop Boys (loosely paraphrasing):
 * { What is it with you insipid Americans and your inability to just get it? Does every little speck of detail have to get coloured in for you? It has never been, and will never be, just "Pet Shop Boys"! It's "The Pet Shop Boys"! All capitalized, you morons! No exceptions!
 * You should know this listening to their greatest hits, such as:
 * "The What Have I Done To Deserve This"
 * "The West End Girls"
 * "The It's A Sin"
 * "The Can You Forgive Her"
 * And, my personal favourite:
 * "The Yesterday, When I Was Mad" } CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 20:31, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Their older albums were titled that so people could say requests like: "I'd like the Pet Shop Boys, please.", "I'd like the Pet Shop Boys, actually." But for this instance, WP:THE would apply. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The Retarget to list of prime numbers, which is what I assume someone typing "the prime numbers" into a search box is probably looking for. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:47, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The delete. It's not a proper noun like The The, and we don't use articles (the part of speech) in the titles of any of our other articles (the pieces of writing) except in cases of proper nouns, not even as redirects. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:11, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. While I was momentarily swindled by User:Ivanvector's logic, on reflection simply Prime Number would be better. Our list is necessarily not exhaustive and I think people are more likely to look for the concept of "what is a prime number?" than be looking for a list of particilar primes. So I'm still undecided on this. Yes I remember those Pet Shop Boys hits, they got to number 3, 7, 11, 13, 17 and 23 in the charts in the UK. Si Trew (talk) 08:46, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete we don't use "The" and we don't want to start now. A search engine can easily find this page and we don't want to create another 5 million redirects just because of this precedent. Strong delete. --Tom (LT) (talk) 00:12, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Obstructor
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 31%23Obstructor

Absence of breasts



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedy delete by Diannaa per criterion G6.  Steel1943  (talk) 17:17, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Absence of breasts → Amastia (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Absence_of_breasts&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Absence_of_breasts stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Tut tut. What is an absense of breasts? I am just a bloke so I have breasts just not very well formed ones. This does not mean a mastectomy does it mean anzthing (Neelix redirect) Si Trew (talk) 22:21, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. Just more Neelix sexual fixation. Enough already. Softlavender (talk) 23:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - I'm seeing some medical sources refer to issues about women suffering from "breast absence" and various related things, but I'm picking up neither consistent wording to describe the problem nor a consistent definition for what terms to avoid/use. Unless someone's searching for the exact term "amastia", it's all crude, unhelpful vagueness. Besides, it's another Neelix redirect, anyways. I'd get rid of it. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:08, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as vague. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:11, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Christian Book Store Journal



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedy delete by Sphilbrick per criterion G6.  Steel1943  (talk) 17:19, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Christian Book Store Journal → Christian Marketplace (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Book_Store_Journal&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Christian_Book_Store_Journal stats])     [ Closure:  ]

not known or searched with the space between book and store AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 22:14, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * There are stacks of these, this is a Neelix redirect. I gave you the crowbar the other day to jemmy into these but there are stacks of 'em. CSD under WP:G6 Neelix concession I shall take it. Fair Way Publishing anyone? Si Trew (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Gymnogonia pentaphylla
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 25%23Gymnogonia pentaphylla

The Christian Booksellers Association



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The Christian Booksellers Association → CBA (Christian trade association) (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Christian_Booksellers_Association&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=The_Christian_Booksellers_Association stats])     [ Closure:  ]

It's not a trade association but I am tossing up on this one. (Neelix) I don't think this makes sense Si Trew (talk) 22:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete but create Christian Booksellers Association.--The Traditionalist (talk) 22:56, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * And what would we put there? Every town I have ever lived in has a Christian Bookshop. I always wonder how they get the trade frankly because my pocket KJV which has served me well for many years is on bible paper obviously and why would people buy things from them but they seem to cos they never seem to go out of business. Most of the stuff in the windows is not about Christ but about theologians talking about Christ. We can all do that, we can all have our views. My own view is that Christ was a bloody good chap who knocked some sense into the heads of people that has lasted about two thousand years. Whether he is the Son of God I do not know and will never know. No disrespect to Christians, but we have a load that kinda make no sense as Wikipedia entries in the index. Si Trew (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * And we will put there a redirect to CBA (Christian trade association), obviously...--The Traditionalist (talk) 00:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * keep your eye on the one I said I prodded (I just lost it) because someone took off the PROD. You can't do that. You argue the PROD you don't remove it. Si Trew (talk) 07:51, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete the version with "The" in it. It's not a part of the title. Re-create Christian Booksellers Association as that was the name of the group for 50+ years. I suspect it was a move like Kentucky Fried Chicken to KFC.  What the title of the article should be can be discussed on that talk page. I suggest CBA (Christian retail) or CBA (Christian retailer) AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 17:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - "The Christian Booksellers Association" is how they were known for many years. Jonathunder (talk) 22:25, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - valid former name. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:52, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - I agree. If they insist on being known now primarily as "CBA" rather than anything else, so be it. The old name in name is there for informational purposes in the article. As for this specific redirect, it's helpful since a lot of people are probably unsure as to whether or not they did change their name completely as well as whether or not the definite article is supposed to be there. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 15:41, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Gainsay



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was soft redirect to the Wiktionary entry gainsay. -- Tavix ( talk ) 17:03, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Gainsay → Contradiction (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gainsay&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-05&end=2016-05-04&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Gainsay stats])     [ Closure:  ]

A gainsay is not a mathematical formal logical contradiction. It is just someone disagreeing with someone else. WP:RFD confusing, not at target. WP:RFD nonsense and WP:NOTDIC. For homework we odo not have gainsaid or gainsaying. Si Trew (talk) 19:34, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete per nom and again, overlinking common words like contradiction. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 02:23, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Soft-redirect to Wiktionary. It's an uncommon enough word that people would be looking it up on Wikipedia. Best to direct them to the actual definition. -- &oelig; &trade; 15:25, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:NOTDIC. I have a strong aversion to retargeting things to Wiktionary. If we have no encylopaedic content we should say so. Si Trew (talk) 21:55, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Uhm, aren't you the nominator here? Your delete is implied. -- &oelig; &trade; 11:55, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete is not implied, because this is "redirects for discussion" :) Deryck C. 10:52, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Soft-redirect to Wiktionary. Give users what they want per OlEnglish. Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:19, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Soft-redirect to Wiktionary. I can reasonably expect someone like myself to search for this on Wikipedia and it helps to have a soft-redirect to lead me to useful information. Deryck C. 10:52, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

AGBL



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was no consensus, default to keep. (non-admin closure) Steel1943  (talk) 18:37, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * AGBL → Agrostis blasdalei (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AGBL&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-02&end=2016-05-01&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=AGBL stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Delete. AGBL was created as a two link dab page for Agrostis blasdalei and Alliance Global Group. Alliance Global Group was apparently deleted at one point (and then recreated), and the dab was turned into a redirect. AGBL is not mentioned as an abbreviation in the article about the company. As for the plant, AGBL is the unique ID for the record in the USDA PLANTS database, but it is not a likely search term. Plantdrew (talk) 20:56, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * AcronymFinder returns three definitions for AGBL - American Girls Baseball League, Albert George Branch Library (in Needville, TX) and Au Gres Branch Library (in Au Gres, MI). All three are redlinked and in my opinion likely to stay that way.  Interestingly, the PLANTS database symbol doesn't come up in that source.  Despite that, the USDA reference is a strong enough source for me to keep the redirect, especially since it is apparent that nothing else is competing for that acronym.  Rossami (talk) 21:12, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete, not mentioned in the article, which is confusing for someone searching for uses of the acronym. There are a couple super minor uses of "AGBL" on Wikipedia, so it would be better for our readers to encounter search results instead of a plant article. -- Tavix ( talk ) 22:36, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I realize that this is mentioned now, but I still dislike AGBL redirecting there, because I feel it's a little obscure to warrant a redirect. I would prefer this retargeted to Metalloexopeptidase if anything, or deleted for search results. -- Tavix ( talk ) 17:01, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep per Rossami, and add redirect documentation R from alternate name to the redirect to indicate why it exists -- 70.51.200.96 (talk) 09:39, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. Interesting case. There appear to be at least three separate companies that use the name "Alliance Global", only one of which has an article: the Philippine conglomerate which has the current article at Alliance Global Group and which does not appear to use the initials, an American manufacturing and technology company without an existing article and which does not appear to use the initials, and the Middle Eastern life sciences company which had the previously deleted article at Alliance Global Group which does use the initials. There was also a software company called Alliance Global Services which in now part of EPAM Systems which does not have separate article and does not appear to use the initials. It seems there should be (or at least could be) a disambiguation page at Alliance Global. But for this specific initialism, at the moment there is no mention in any existing article. So unless someone wants to add the USDA reference to the Agrostis blasdalei article (and I'm a little surprised there isn't a parameter in the taxonomy infobox to allow addition of standard identification codes), I'm inclined to delete this redirect. older ≠ wiser 15:19, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete, pointless and/or potentially confusing. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:07, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep as primary topic. I've reformatted the external links so that the USDA link text has the "symbol" AGBL. Deryck C. 10:42, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BDD (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep as a valid primary topic given the official U.S. government agency using this in reference to the plant CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 23:30, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The other use of AGBL appears to be in reference to the human genes AGBL1, AGBL2, etc. My limited background in Chemistry doesn't/didn't extend to this level of organic-based molecular biology, but I went ahead and added a hatnote while expanding the page that the hatnote targets. Someone with a more detailed background should probably talk a look at this. Were money and time no object, and/or if I had the lifespan of a Time Lord, I'd attempt to study these kinds of things in depth, but alas. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 08:42, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Canna orientalis
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) -- Tavix  ( talk ) 22:54, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Canna orientalis → Canna indica (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Canna_orientalis&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Canna_orientalis stats])     [ Closure:  ]
 * Canna occidentalis → Canna indica (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Canna_occidentalis&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Canna_occidentalis stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Is this just wrong? Although it is in the western hemisphere, occidental, there is no mention of this back end in the taxobox or in the article proper that I can see. Call the experts User:Plantdrew and User:Peter coxhead. Si Trew (talk) 20:57, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Will combine if I can. Now we have an eastern one and a western one both the same flower. C'mon we can't have both surely. Obviously some plants are worldwide but this is pushing it isn't it? Si Trew (talk) 20:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep - These are names that botanists have applied to the plant which may be found in the literature, and are listed in the article's taxobox. It is not asserted that they are current or currently accepted, just that it is one of the other names for it for which we create a redirect per Naming_conventions_(flora). These are also in Category:Printworthy redirects: one would hope to find an index entry for them in a paper version of the material. Note that reliable sources such as The Plant List give these names index entries, e.g. and . William Avery (talk) 21:15, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find it in the taxobox but if you call it then the tune is yours and I will go along with you you're the expert not me. Speedily withdrawn as Keep by nom. Si Trew (talk) 22:23, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * They're in category printworthy redirects because nobody has marked them as . Then the next generation of botanists starts calling them the wrong thing. We have to make the call. Si Trew (talk) 22:25, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Christian Bookstore Journal
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep. Deryck C. 11:10, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Christian Bookstore Journal → Christian Marketplace (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bookstore_Journal&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Christian_Bookstore_Journal stats])     [ Closure:  ]

I don't want anythong done with this but now I see where all the Christian redirect books come from. This is your crowbar for breaking and entering. This is fine but I can see where they all come from now. (And if anyone asks, I wasn't there when it didn't happen, I have a perfect alibi I was editing Wikipedia, Officer) Si Trew (talk) 20:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep, although the one with the space in between isn't likely. <strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 22:15, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep a plausible redirect that readers may search for. --Tom (LT) (talk) 00:15, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Farens Art Gallery
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep. -- Tavix ( talk ) 16:56, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Farens Art Gallery → Ferens Art Gallery (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Farens_Art_Gallery&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Farens_Art_Gallery stats])     [ Closure:  ]

I need a double check on this. I can see that Farens is a likely spelling error but does anyone in real life ever misspelled it this way? (Neelix redirect) Si Trew (talk) 20:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Reasonable typo for searching on this term. <strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 23:44, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep - Very simple typo and the redirect appears helpful CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:16, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Youve Got to Get Out of the Boat
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:17, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Youve Got to Get Out of the Boat → If You Want to Walk on Water, You've Got to Get Out of the Boat (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Youve_Got_to_Get_Out_of_the_Boat&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Youve_Got_to_Get_Out_of_the_Boat stats])     [ Closure:  ]

I've already made two they are fine it is the missing apostrophe is this stretching it? Can't help search Si Trew (talk) 20:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete not likely search title. The abbreviated book title is "If You Want to Walk on Water" so that term can be kept, but not the second part. And unlikely typo. <strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 20:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - As stated above, I don't think this is particularly helpful. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 08:49, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

What Can We Expect to Find
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 31%23What Can We Expect to Find

Twelve to the Moon
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn by nomimator with no opposing votes. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 14:05, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Twelve to the Moon → 12 to the Moon (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Twelve_to_the_Moon&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Twelve_to_the_Moon stats])     [ Closure:  ]

This is not the title of the film. The title is numerals not "twelve". That would be like having a redirect to A hundred and one dalmations wouldn't it? Si Trew (talk) 19:46, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Phonetic spelling of number. Steel1943  (talk) 20:41, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Its likely someone might've heard the title of the film as opposed to seeing it in print. It's not unreasonable to assume the number is spelled out. -- Tavix ( talk ) 20:51, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedily withdrawn as keep by nom me. I forgot to say this is a neelix redirect. If it is WP:RFD useful to anyone, keep it. That is why I bring it here in doubt. Si Trew (talk) 21:08, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep and perhaps create A hundred and one dalmatians.--The Traditionalist (talk) 22:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh well I wasn't thinking of dalmatians. I was thinking of dalmations. Well spotted! Si Trew (talk) 08:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep used at tcm.com and a few other spotty places. <strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 17:13, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

What's So Amazing About Grace
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was no consensus, default to keep. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 14:09, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * What's So Amazing About Grace → What's So Amazing About Grace? (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=What%27s_So_Amazing_About_Grace&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=What's_So_Amazing_About_Grace stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Wasn't there a US TV sitcom/series called this? I forget the name of the blonde star with a deep southern accent her name in the series and in real life was Grace Kelly I think but not that Grace Kelly part of the joke was that she kinda had to be apologising for her name. Si Trew (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * No, you're thinking of Grace Under Fire. &#8209; Iridescent 19:49, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That is exactly what I was thinking of. (Sometimes things in the UK when franchised go under different names but I am not sure this one ever did I probably just got it wrong.) Sorry just was tidying the Ruski one up. We kinda being a bit incestuous there with me nominating and you speedily deleting but I think on the whole it is for the best. Si Trew (talk) 20:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete If someone's going to link to this title, they will put in the question mark. <strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 20:39, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I do see searches for this term in the past 90 days at about 10-20% |What's_So_Amazing_About_Grace? so might be worth keeping for that. <strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 22:19, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Simple R from modification, and very plausible. The actual book title poses a question, but no doubt it's one the book attempts to answer, so it's also about "What's So Amazing About Grace". Offhand, I can't think of an instance where solely absence of terminal punctuation would make me say delete, since most articles don't have it. --BDD (talk) 21:05, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The big bugger I have to tackle is Grace (Christianity) and that is going to be a sod. Does anyone say Grace in any other religion? I mean obviously they say prayers and so on but do they say Grace would it be a reasonable translation? I can't just whack it at Amazing Grace ([Crimmond]] hopefully unless you have some idiot organist who learned the New International Version or something). I must admit I was arrested for playing with my organ in the church but that is another story. Si Trew (talk) 21:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Divine grace gives uses in Hinduism and Islam. --BDD (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Right, right, so other religions do use the term. This leaves this a bit WP:XY doesn't it? Si Trew (talk) 08:37, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Not unless you can find instances of this phrase in the context of Hinduism or Islam. --BDD (talk) 13:35, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

James J Murakami
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep. -- -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:16, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * James J Murakami → James J. Murakami (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_J_Murakami&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=James_J_Murakami stats])     [ Closure:  ]

I have a few of these coming up (neelix) and will attempt to combine. Is he James or Jimmy. Like our beloved benefactor Jimbo is known as Jimmy Wales and seldom as James Wales although I imagine that is his birthname (I don't know actually I think his birthname was Jimmy). But some of these are pushing it a bit Si Trew (talk) 19:41, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Jimmy's birth name is "Jimmy Wales"—in the US it's a name in its own right, not necessarily a diminutive of "James". &#8209; Iridescent 19:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. Lack of a period after a middle initial is a likely spelling variation. Steel1943  (talk) 20:39, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * There are lots of these that are less likely about eighteen, and a lack of a full stop (rolls eyes) is kinda not the greatest of problems. The name at the front is the biggest problem cos he is now called James Jimmy and Jim. Some of those must be nonsense but I am having trouble separating the wheat from the chaff with this. No problem with target. Si Trew (talk) 21:11, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Strongest possible keep and speedy close lest you reignite the pointless yet epic "period after initial" move wars. Just leave these, really. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:36, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Ivanvector it is not the dots in the initials that are bothering me. This one sure keep. There are about eighteen more that have the first name misspelled and in lots of combinations. This one, fine, close, but I will then have to bring about eighteen more to your attention and I do not wish to flood RfD. 'Speedily close as Ivanvector suggested but there are lots more that are far more dubious. This was something of a test case. Si Trew (talk) 22:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually I'm a liar. There is only one redirect to this person and that is a perfectly sensible one. To the other chap hatnoted there are lots that make little sense. I just got the wrong chap the silly redirects are to Jimmy_T._Murakami. I cocked up I admit it. He has a lot that are like not so good because his forename is spelled in different ways. It is not a question of the middle initial. Harry S Truman is on my side here. Si Trew (talk) 22:39, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Russo-Ukrainian war
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was 'Speedily deleted by admin User:Iridescent, nominated by me for speedy deletion your humble editor (non-admin closure) Si Trew (talk) 20:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC). This is rather incestuous but considering the circumstances I think best sooner than later we can't wait seven days about it.


 * Russo-Ukrainian war → Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present) (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russo-Ukrainian_war&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Russo-Ukrainian_war stats])     [ Closure:  ]

This redirect was created today as part of a controversial rename by a user who falls under severe restrictions concerning page moves. The move was promptly reverted by an admin, with. This title should be deleted as a misrepresentation of reality. — JFG talk 19:08, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I've taken this as speedy delete with little hope of success. For if not we can have the Ukraino-Russian war and so on. This is WP:TOOSOON. Si Trew (talk) 20:16, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedy deleted under WP:G3, since the original pagemove was either trolling, extreme POV-pushing or a serious competence issue. &#8209; Iridescent 20:28, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

<span id="Heilman Villas (Coronado, CA).jpg">Heilman Villas (Coronado, CA).jpg
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete -- -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:14, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * <span id="Heilman Villas (Coronado, CA).jpg">Heilman Villas (Coronado, CA).jpg → Heilman Villas (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heilman_Villas_(Coronado,_CA).jpg&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Heilman_Villas_(Coronado,_CA).jpg stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Nonsense title that looks like a file name. Steel1943 (talk) 17:28, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. It is exceedingly unlikely anyone would type this full file name into the search function. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 17:47, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - We do have an image known as File:Heilman_Villas_(Coronado,_CA).jpg, so I guess maybe someone made a mistake? At any rate, I agree. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - would confusing to readers since they would be expecting a jpg file rather than an article -- Lenticel ( talk ) 03:19, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. File name, not an article. <strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 23:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - With consensus this clear-cut, an admin should be able to come in right now since this is a 'snow delete' situation. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:38, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

3 Questions No One Asks Aloud
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 31%233 Questions No One Asks Aloud

Black-and-tan
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget Black and tan (disambiguation). Deryck C. 11:15, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Black-and-tan → Black and Tan (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Black-and-tan&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Black-and-tan stats])     [ Closure:  ]

(neelix redirect) this is an odd one. In British English indeed a pint of mild and bitter will be known in slang (half a pint of mild and half a pint of Guiness) as a black and tan. However also they are a regiment that this slang came from and also is used in electronic engineering slang to mean two wires one of which is brown on of which is black. (A twisted pair). So this may be confusing I don't know. Confusing to me. It's lso used to mean shoe polish I use it meself. This is simply confusing I think. Si Trew (talk) 14:30, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * cf. Black and Tans. Si Trew (talk) 14:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep - I see this hyphenated lots, it's probably harmless. Would be a pointless redirect in electronics parlance anyway and no better than any of Neelix's other colour-and-othercolour redirects in that sense, you can twist a pair of any two colour wires, and it's just as likely to mean a single wire which has black and brown casing, or black with a brown stripe, or brown with a black stripe, or a very oddly labelled one-ohm resistor. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * You could but you don't. Black-and-tan to an electrical engineer is a very specific type of cable and you can order it from Screwfix in boatloads if you want. You can't order let's say greenisholives. It is 5mm twin core cable I don't know how to describe. You can't even get other colours if you tried because the regulations state what colours the PVC coating has to be. IEEE 18th Edition Wiring Regulations if you are that bored. (Oh, occasionally I know what I am talking about.) Yes, I know how to read a resistor too. The regs are a bit different your way cos you are on 110v and it won't entirely kill you (you might get a nice surprise though). Si Trew (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * [User:SimonTrew]] chucks a three-pin plug at User:Ivanvector now stand on that and tell me it don't hurt. They are the most painful things in the world, standing on a three pin British plug. Si Trew (talk) 19:34, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * You know when it hurts when you get some old wiring and the black one you assume to be common is actually wired to live. This is how much this hurts. Trust me, I know on this one. I have had many boring lectures at the IEEE discussing the mindnumbing subject of this. I also worked for British Industrial Callender Cable what was then BICC but taken over by some big international conglomerate for a while so I do know what I am on about when it comes to cable and wiring. Si Trew (talk) 19:23, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect over to 'Black and tan (disambiguation)', as there's a huge number of possible uses of the term and many which (I think) have received the hyphen treatment from various sources. I would actually, personally, nominate that 'Black and tan' itself should be the main disambiguation page and the drink should be titled 'Black and tan (___)' of some form. Personally, my first thought in hearing the wording "Black-and-tan" is thinking of the anti-Irish paramilitary forces fighting during the Irish War of Independence, though I recognize that's based on my interest in economics/history/politics/etc over arts/cuisine/drink/etc admittedly biasing me. (My own heritage being solidly more Irish than English probably biases me even more in language association terms, but then there's still the half of me that's a likely hodgepodge of French Canadian, Scandinavian, peoples from somewhere in the Caucasus, and goodness knows where else, ethic-tribal divisions really get illogical the more one's looks into it). CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 17:12, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes I thought of those uses too for the British forces in Northern Ireland during the "Struggles" (deliberately not linking) but I am not sure if that were quite so WP:WORLDWIDE. I think you are right we should somehow reverse the redirect and put the DAB more prominently. Si Trew (talk) 17:24, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, User:CoffeeWithMarkets, I am purely English and proud of it. That is why my grandfather had the back translated surname Bachmann and his wife came from somewhere or other, but I am absolutely purely English and proud of it! We are all a bit like that when we look under the covers aren't we. I am probably mostly Germanic stock but there is got to be a lot of a mix in there. My mother is tracing the ancestry but it is quite hard to do because we come from a family of bastards it seems so finding the records is a bit difficult. Si Trew (talk) 09:55, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Black and tan (disambiguation) per CoffeeWithMarkets. — Godsy (TALK<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"> CONT ) 08:26, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Black and tan (disambiguation) per the above as the hypenated form does get used (e.g. ), but there are more than one plausible uses. Patar knight - chat/contributions 03:59, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

White-tip
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedily deleted' as Neelix and based on this discussion. Patar knight - chat/contributions 03:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * White-tip → Urosticte (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White-tip&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=White-tip stats])     [ Closure:  ]

I can see why this might be so from the white bit on its arse but is this a valid name for this bird? Si Trew (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Calling User:Plantdrew is this valid? It is not in its taxobox. Is it just made up or is this ok ? Si Trew (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Bird species have official common names. Bird genera don't, although in cases where there is a noun that appears in the common name of every species, that noun can be taken to be the common name of the genus. So "whitetip" is legit. But the official common names are very particular about when and where hyphens (and spaces) are deployed. I don't see a need to include hyphen/space variants that run contrary to the rules governing how bird common names are formed. Plantdrew (talk) 16:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hehehe User:SimonTrew shakes a tail feather. I rescued a European hedgehog yesterday from the street so if I have done nothing good else all week I have done one good thing. Si Trew (talk) 19:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
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Imposter jacks
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 14:25, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Imposter jacks → Imposter trevally (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Imposter_jacks&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Imposter_jacks stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Callling our experts User:Plantdrew and User:Petercoxhead it is in the lede as impostor jack as an alternate name no problem with that but can you pluralise it like magpies or blackbirds? Not sure (Neelix redirect) Si Trew (talk) 14:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Seems pretty unlikely that anybody would search for or link to this, but the pluralization is possible: "I went fishing and caught three imposter jacks". Plantdrew (talk) 16:37, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That is pretty bad fishing considering they are birds. Unfortunately so many swans and so on die each year on British rivers because of fishermen using lead shot and their fishing reel and it gets caught in their throat. People should clear up their own rubbish just as we do here. Speedily withdrawn by nominator if our expert says it is OK, it is OK. Si Trew (talk) 17:29, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

<span id="Byword (saying)">Byword (saying)
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 31%23Byword (saying)

Samuel Johnson's ethical views
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was no consensus, default to keep. The views represented below are that the topic match is a bit far-fetched, but the target article does contain some of Samuel Johnson's ethical views. I don't think widening this discussion's participation will lead to a consensus or an overwhelming majority either way so I'm closing it now. Deryck C. 17:18, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Samuel Johnson's ethical views → Religious views of Samuel Johnson (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samuel_Johnson%27s_ethical_views&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Samuel_Johnson's_ethical_views stats])     [ Closure:  ]

(neelix redirect) not sure. Samuel Johnson was not a great fan of ethics and ethics and religion are not quite the same thing although obviously closely related. I think this is a step too far. Si Trew (talk) 11:31, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - While the wording is clumsy, the target page does, in fact, go into Johnson's viewpoints on morals and ethics broader than just narrow religious concerns. One ethical observation found in the target page I'd like to highlight is: "To entail irreversible poverty upon generation after generation only because the ancestor happened to be poor, is, in itself, cruel, if not unjust". I could see changing things, but the present redirect is still helpful. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * He also defined Oats as A helpful grain that in England is given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people. I don't know if that helps us here. Wasn't a great fan of the Scots I think Sammy J which makes it a bit ironic that in Blackadder III his character is played by a Scot, Robbie Coltrane. Si Trew (talk) 19:00, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sure he's got quite a bit of inconsistencies and the like littered all through his opinions, but then as long as the "religious views" page has all kinds of content in the general sense of being about ethics in there, it's a helpful redirect. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 19:21, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per CoffeeWithMarkets. Not a 1:1 matchup with the search term, but unless there's a more relevant section on the main biography page for Johnson, it's likely the best target article to provide the information that the user was searching for. Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * delete an amusing reword of the original topic. I cannot imagine readers searching for Samuel Johnson's ethical views. These are not the same as religious views, and this sets a precedent for another bajillion articles whereby we can specutively reword the titles. We should delete this and let search engines do their job. So - delete for lack of relavance and relationship to topic article, and because it is an implausible redirect. --Tom (LT) (talk) 00:20, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Fair-way
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep "fair-way" and delete "Fair Way". Deryck C. 11:27, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Fair-way → Fairway (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fair-way&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Fair-way stats])     [ Closure:  ]
 * Fair Way → Fairway (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fair_Way&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Fair_Way stats])     [ Closure:  ]

tricky two (neelix redirects). The DAB target has loads of things the golf and the London Taxi and so on but none has a space or hyphen in it, while marked as R from other punc it does not really make sense if none splits it with a space does it? Si Trew (talk) 11:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete both as possibly confusing with notable uses. This is part of the CSS Publishing Company series of redirects; one of its non-notable imprints is Fairway Press. Neelix also created Fair Way Press. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:42, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I've PRODded that publisher by the way, with very little hope of sucess. Si Trew (talk) 17:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep: both seem plausible alternative ways to search for "Fairway". Pam  D  08:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Fair Way as that wording is often used for topics unrelated to what's at the disambiguation page, such as with discussions over "The fair way to split a restaurant bill", "The fair way for siblings to divide up chores", "The fair way to pick a new Prime Minister", et cetera, while I'm neutral on Fair-way with the hyphen. It's possible that some groups such as the aforementioned British Taxi service have occasionally formatted the name in such a way. It's difficult to search for details about that online to prove or disprove the hypothesis. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 21:58, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: Fair way is red. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 21:58, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep with hyphen as a plausible search term, Delete without hyphen per CoffeeWithMarket's reasoning above that it could refer to other things and a search results page might be better. Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:08, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

43nd People's Choice Awards
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 31%2343rd People's Choice Awards

Whitewashed
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget Whitewash (disambiguation). Deryck C. 11:38, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Whitewashed → Whitewash (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whitewashed&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Whitewashed stats])     [ Closure:  ]

(neelix) There are about a dozen and a half of these and these are a bit greenisholives. This one is probably all right but there are lots more we should probably speedily delete. Anomie list #5. Si Trew (talk) 05:30, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering that Richard Nixon famously said on his resignation "There can be no whitewash at the White House" I think that we have to be a bit careful with these. Some may go to Watergate Scandal some may not, I am not sure. There is of course the scene in Life on the Mississippi where Tom Sawyer swindles his friends into whitewashing his aunt's fence. These none of them stand as kinda right well we all know what whitewash is but I could see multiple targets for any of 'em. Si Trew (talk) 05:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That was in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer I think. Jschnur (talk) 07:00, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes and no, various anthologies have it with different names some even attribute the work a completely different chap Samuel Clemens technically you are probably correct. We both know what we meant. Don't stand on ceremony, please. Si Trew (talk) 11:01, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Whitewash (disambiguation) as it looks like the term "whitewashed" as a past tense verb applies about equally to ideological/political censorship, to racist practices in media production, and to sports (here's the Daily Mail using it in a headline, no less). CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That's true I had not thought of it in the metaphorical sense. Go with User:CoffeeWithMarkets with this one. There were about eighteen jus about the paint if you can call it paint so I had not stopped to think of the metaphorical sense. There are a load of others like and  (which to me would suggest Persil or something) so these are going to be a bugger to sort out. Si Trew (talk) 18:48, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Your interesting fact for this evening is that "Persil" in French means "Parsley". Si Trew (talk) 18:51, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect to the disambiguation page as the verb form of the word has more connotations than the noun form does, which is significantly more likely to refer to literal whitewash. Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:00, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect as stated to the dismabig page - a fairly commonly used term whose use may refer to either of above topics. --Tom (LT) (talk) 00:20, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
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Charleston and West Carolina Railroad
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget to Charleston and Western Carolina Railway. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Charleston and West Carolina Railroad → Railroad (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charleston_and_West_Carolina_Railroad&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Charleston_and_West_Carolina_Railroad stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Redirect from name of a specific railroad to page railroad. There seems to be no clear reason for the redirect, and railroad itself is a redirect to rail transport. a CLoG? |  unCLoG  04:16, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

User:Mjroots used to be my helpmeet with railway/railroad articles that user may help. We should also probably ask at Wikiproject Trains. My train of thought is still boarding at the station. Si Trew (talk) 04:23, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Many years ago I think Mjroots and I put together the Newmarket and Chesterford Railway because it happened to be on my patch and guided me through the intricacies of the railway templates. But I am not sure that user is active much these days. Si Trew (talk) 04:25, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I asked a few times to get more information to add to that article but the archivist at the Cambridgeshire Collection quite rightly refused saying they were essentially not public domain (not in those words they are my words). You might have the same problem here. I have no doubt it was a railroad but to WP:RS it is going to be a struggle. Si Trew (talk) 04:29, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Retarget to Charleston and Western Carolina Railway. Mjroots (talk) 05:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I can call spirits from the vasty deep
 * And so can I, and so can any man
 * But will they come when you do call them?


 * Blow me down User:Mjroots we have not crossed paths or indeed railway lines in years. There was a lovely little four-episode series of programmes on BBC recently called Paul Merton's Secret Stations where he gets off at some of the least used and most beautiful (almost for the same reason I guess) request stop stations in the United Kingdom. I think you might enjoy it if you come across it. I was annoyed he didn't get the one between Exmouth and Exeter that you're only allowed to get off if you are going to the army barracks I can't rememeber the name of the barracks offhand. Si Trew (talk) 11:05, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * - are you thinking of Lympstone Commando? Mjroots (talk) 12:26, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. The train out of Exmouth where I worked it only has one platform well it has one in each direction but on the right that would be the east as you come from Exeter to Exmouth you can only get out if you are going to the barracks. I didn't have me army pass at the time so I was trying to swing it on the nod User:Mjroots because it is a beautiful nineteenth century barracks but nope they will not let you. It is a request stop but they will not stop! Si Trew (talk) 12:35, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Bizarrely you would think there would be a load of squaddies on the train but there never is. I have no idea what they do there beside training cannon fodder. Perhaps something goes on during the night. Intriguing but not WP:RS. The trains for British nuclear waste used to run past me on the East Coast Main Line at 3.25 every morning and I could use them to set me watch, they just run em in the night when nobody's watching (except me). They were hauled by EWS Class 68 diesels never saw one but could hear it and could set my watch by it. This was at Ickleford. At that time because the Icknield Way is a public right of way you could walk across four tracks and the trains had to get out of your way. This of course was rather a nuisance to them so eventually they built a really crappy bridge which makes it a lot more tricky as a ped or cyclist. But they would of course have a warning and sound their horn about a mile up the line before the level crossing. And every weekday I could set my watch by it 3.25am. Si Trew (talk) 12:39, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not a trainspotter I am a night owl so I am usually up that time of night. Si Trew (talk) 12:49, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Retarget per Mjroots. Do what the expert says. Si Trew (talk) 11:05, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Charleston and Western Carolina Railway per Mjroots. Tangential clutter collapsed, please use your talk pages to catch up. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Tangential clutter? If you want tangential clutter look at the Hitchin Flyover! Beep beep! I walked that. Si Trew (talk) 18:56, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Suricates
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 14:34, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Suricates → Meerkat (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Suricates&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Suricates stats])     [ Closure:  ]

This is a surrogate for a suricate. I think this makes no sense. The taxonomists can take this one. Meerkats are in the genus I think it said surricata but it don't make them suricates does it? That is, the genus necessarily is wider than this one species. Si Trew (talk) 03:11, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * We do have the genus Suricata so that is probably a better target? And for the other singular ? Si Trew (talk) 03:23, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Meerkats are the only species in the genus Suricata, so targetting meerkat is appropriate. Anglicizing scientific names in this fashion isn't unheard of, and there are English dictionary sites with results for "suricate" (and it's also the French common name). No harm in keeping the plural "suricates", but I don't think it's very useful. Plantdrew (talk) 16:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete . When we don't know we should say so. WP:REDLINK. Si Trew (talk) 21:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - As long as we have various reliable-seeming sources in print that can and do apply this name to the little fuzzy ones, then I think the redirect is appropriate. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 08:45, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep per CWM's findings -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedily keep as withdrawn by nominator. That's the consensus, obviously. WP:IDONTLIKEIT but I don't win em all. Si Trew (talk) 08:28, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Latitude parallel
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 14:37, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Latitude parallel → Circle of latitude (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Latitude_parallel&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Latitude_parallel stats])     [ Closure:  ]

(neelix redirect) does this make any sense. We also have in the plural - I am quite aware that the world is flat (despite all these modern gainsayers with their new fangled Global Positioning System and stuff they are just trying to fool us) but whether this particular combination of words is useful. Line of latitude would seem the obvious retarget to me but even that seems a bit iffy because here we're kinda stating explicitly that lines of latitude are parallel which of course they must be otherwise ships would fall off into the abyss but I am not sure on this one. Si Trew (talk) 03:03, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep - nom's proposed action is circular, Line of latitude is already a redirect to this target. And the meaning is accurate; see for example 49th parallel. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 03:51, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * There's no doubt it's accurate it is just kinda redundant. If you assume the world is flat as say cartographers must to do a map projection you can't put a three dimensional surface onto a two dimensional one unless you wear size eleven steelies like I do then it will fit (with a bit of a shove) world is definitely flat don't let them fool you. I guess you live a tiny bit above the forty-ninth parallel I imagine, as 90% of Canadians do, (which is not parallel because there is a bloody great kink on the right hand side just around Ontario), so if that is a parallel line je suis la reigne Sheba. I can draw a straighter line than that, a better example may be the Mason-Dixon line.  It's not whether it is accurate but whether it helps readers to search. If someone says it does, it does. Now I have to get out my parallel motion drawing board and start redrawing the borders to make it parallel. Oh no hang on we did that in Africa and that worked out well. Si Trew (talk) 04:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually that is the thing I miss most a drawing board but you can't have everything in life. You have to make sacrifices sometimes, mene mene mekel I think the Hebrew expression is. The art shop had kept it for me when they moved and when we had enough money they said "I knew you would come back for it". Been going to that art shop for twenty years. Even when moving premises they kept it just for me. Sold it on eBay when we moved to Hungary so I do everything rather aristotlean with ruler and compasses. It would be a lot easier with a parallel motion drawing board but never mind I have whacked out a few things all right but not with the precision you get standing at a drawing board. Si Trew (talk) 04:46, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah it's redundant, but it's natural disambiguation. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 04:47, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmmm is it I am still I dunno we have Great Circle I assume and I dunno whether this kinda makes any sense unless someone knows that (those of course are longitude) but does it really I dunno. If someone says it does, then it does. To me it doesn't make sense but that is how we get WP:CONSENSUS. I believe in the Queen's Speech in Westminster today (Wednesday) she is going to ask Parliament to ask for Canada back but I don't know why we want it any more, full of fools. It is kinda WP:NOTLESSON or something we are not here to teach people what a circle or a parallel is, WP:Competence is required. Actually you have made me think this is more useless but you know you and I always argue intelligently and without any side. Si Trew (talk) 04:51, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Speedily keep withdrawn by nominator. If someone thinks it makes sense, it makes sense. I was just not sure with the particular kinda order of these words. It's all plane sailing then. Don't mind if Ivanvector closes it even though having commented we can speedily keep this one. Si Trew (talk) 04:16, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Calgary Hitman
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) -- Tavix  ( talk ) 16:22, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Calgary Hitman → Calgary Hitmen (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Calgary_Hitman&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Calgary_Hitman stats])     [ Closure:  ]

'Speedily retarget to User:Ivanvector. You can't have this in singular can you? The names of sports teams are always kinda plural like that. You can't say "Up the gunner" (Arsenal Football Club) or "Down with the Owl" (Sheffield Wednesday F. C.). I am pretty sure this is an implausible back formation but want a second check. Hitmen of course is fine that is their team nickname but this sounds more like it would mean a Hitman in Calgary a murderer and such. (Neelix redirect) Si Trew (talk) 02:46, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Someone who plays for the Calgary Hitmen would be called a Calgary Hitman. Here's a couple examples of use: . I also think it'd be useful as a misspelling of sorts. -- Tavix  ( talk ) 03:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep per Tavix. I'm not aware of any person known as the Calgary Hitman (c.f. Scarborough Rapist) and individual players for sports teams are normally referred to as players for their respective teams in the singular, e.g. Vancouver Canuck, Toronto Maple Leaf, Montréal Canadien (or Canadienne, should that ever come up). Note that Toronto Maple Leaf is actually a redirect to a train, so that was something I learned today. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 03:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)ű
 * ''I'm a Dreamer, Montreal. That is kinda a disconnect when I was in Montreal because I expect French weirdos to be in France where they belong and doing French in Quebec was kinda hard for me. Not the language just cos there is some kinda logical disconnect that says no you are in America you should speak English but everybody is gibbering in French. The Newfie accent I like very much, very much kinda a soft scots brough accent. Lovely accent. Si Trew (talk) 04:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

So is I'm a Dreamer, Montreal. Perhaps that is too subtle. Right with my sledgehammer wit I will try again. Just because someone mishears something does not mean either that they should or could look it up on Wikipedia. WP:Competence is required. I think this is beyong competence. This helps spread incompetence throughout the universe which never mind entropy says that will happen anyway. Si Trew (talk) 21:25, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - It's such a simple phonetic mistake to make from mishearing the words, plus a straightforward kind of spelling error. I think the redirect is properly helpful. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 17:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I said delete yesterday and I dunno why I just missed (neelix redirects get you that way sometimes). Obviously Speedily keep as withdrawn by nominator namely me. Thanks to User:Tavix and User:Ivanvector for the second and third checks (which I presume are in the mail). Si Trew (talk) 08:24, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * We can't send checks through the Canada Post, at least not yet; maybe checks as a service? I did send you a cheque but it must be lost in the mail. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:54, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Ohh, that one made me audibly laugh. I love hockey jokes this time of year, especially because my team is still fighting for the cup. -- Tavix ( talk ) 16:22, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

<span id="Cèntûm">Cèntûm
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 14:40, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * <span id="Cèntûm">Cèntûm → Jalaa language (links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=C%C3%A8nt%C3%BBm&action=history history] · [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews#start=2016-04-18&end=2016-05-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Cèntûm stats])     [ Closure:  ]

Does this make sense with the second û' removed? It is not at target. WP:RFD nonsense or is this valid alternate spelling? (Neelix) Si Trew (talk) 02:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Single-u form doesn't appear as an alternative name on glottolog, this all-encompassing treasure house of real and spurious language names. Still, looks like a somewhat likely misspelling for the language name, not for something else as it's unlikely that people typing the word with this precise combination of diacritics are likely to be looking for any of the other centums. I don't know how this relates to whether the redirect should be kept or deleted. May the decision rest with the wise and the seasoned. Uanfala (talk) 21:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Lenticel probably could add an opinion. I know a few languages but am not familiar with East Asian ones. It's not so much a matter of language but orthography, would an English person write it this way and would they mistype it this way? Since it can't easily be typed on an English layout keyboard it seems highly unlikely to me that it would be an . The thing is, is it a valid ? Si Trew (talk) 08:27, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * My point was that it isn't R from other spelling. Uanfala (talk) 08:50, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Cèntûm seems to be the settlement where the Jalaa speakers came from. I've found a ref where this is discussed. I think this term and Cèntûûm are sometimes interchanged to describe the language-- Lenticel ( talk ) 11:38, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep then. although there's some chance this might be a typo, given that the ref is a circulation draft. couldn't find the published version. Uanfala (talk) 12:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedily keep (withdrawn by nominator). When the experts make the shout, you have to go with the experts. Thanks to you both. Si Trew (talk) 08:29, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.