Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 September 21

September 21
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on September 21, 2017.

The K.G.B.
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedy deleted, G5  . -- Tavix  ( talk ) 22:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The K.G.B. → KGB (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_K.G.B.&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

None of the articles listed at KGB (disambiguation), including the current target, are named with spaces after the 3 letters. Had the article The K.G.B. (band) (the target of the move in January 2014) not been deleted, then it would need to be moved back, but it has already been deleted. Also, the related article The K.G.B. (album) will likely be deleted as well. GeoffreyT2000 (talk, contribs) 21:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment. "KGB" is the standard British English rendering of an acronym, "K.G.B." is the standard American English rendering. For this reason what matters is whether the "The" makes this plausible or implausible. Thryduulf (talk) 22:03, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Revolutionary War
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was replace with the disambiguation page. bd2412  T 15:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Revolutionary War → American Revolutionary War (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Revolutionary_War&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Revolutionary War is a generic title which could refer to other types of conflicts that can be called "Revolutionary War" including:


 * Liberation war, a conflict primarily intended to bring freedom or independence to a nation or group
 * War of independence, a conflict occurring over a territory that has declared independence
 * War of national liberation, conflicts fought by nationalities to gain independence
 * Rebellion, a refusal of obedience or order

There's already Independence War, Revolutionary Wars, Liberation War, National War, Civil War, National Liberation War, Peasants' War and probably plenty more already disambiguated, but this one seems to survive due to U.S. WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS. There's no good reason not to correct it to link either to American Revolutionary War or to one of the many others. Forcing disambiguation of this ambiguous title would accomplish that.

And before someone came up with a incoming links argument, let me say that (until now) it redirects to the ARW, so I suppose it's pretty obvious that people could only use it in this context and not to anything else, reinforcing the stablished bias. Appah Rao (talk) 05:55, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Replace by moving Revolutionary War (disambiguation) to Revolutionary War and correcting all incoming links to the American version also known as the American Rebellion that removed the possibility of a much larger Southern Canada Legacypac (talk) 09:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The redirect was nominated twice for RfD. The result of the first one was no consensus to delete in May 2013 and the result of the second one was keep in October 2015. Links to these old RfDs are found at Talk:Revolutionary War. --2601:646:9280:BA70:EC62:B745:175:2A21 (talk) 13:58, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Is there anything to suggest that the primary topic has changed since 2015? AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 17:57, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Replace - strongly prefer turning this into a disambig page. Why no one has done this already seems alarming. Maury Markowitz (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep, as previous discussions have found.with I had to clean up the disambiguation page, since it looked like it was naming "Revolutionary Wars" not described as such at their target articles, obscuring the fact that we have a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT/WP:COMMONNAME situation here. --BDD (talk) 21:31, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The situation of available pages has changed since the last RfDs. We have a DAB page now at this title. Legacypac (talk) 23:50, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That doesn't seem relevant to me. Even during the first discussion there was a small disambiguation page. It was moved to its present title during the second discussion. None of that really speaks to whether or not there's a primary topic. --BDD (talk) 18:02, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * This certainly isn't a example of WP:COMMONNAME cause if it were ARW would have to be moved to RW and no-one is saying that. Appah Rao (talk) 02:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It's a common name, but on an international encyclopedia. If this were USPedia, that proposition would be quite reasonable, but article titles are supposed to be WP:PRECISE as well. --BDD (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep "Revolutionary war" is a generic title which could refer to many other conflicts, but "Revolutionary War" is a proper noun that seems to only refer to the American Revolutionary War (based on 0 Gbooks hits indicating otherwise). If it's systemic bias, it's systemic bias in the entirety of published works in the English language. menaechmi  (talk) 20:36, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? Appah Rao (talk) 02:24, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That search is specifying "French Revolutionary War", because when discussing anything other than the primary topic authors need the disambiguation. Authors don't need the disambiguation for American, as every result for revolutionary war and the revolutionary war (excluding the word "American") still pulls up books relating to the ARW, with few exceptions. menaechmi  (talk) 13:56, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't grasp your point. Of course a book about the ARW wouldn't have to adjective it all the time all over again, that's just common sense for a subject that the meaning is already stablished. The same way a book about the French revolution can, and does, just write "revolution" and the meaning is implied. How that can be a argument over redirecting revolution to French revolution? That a book about, let's say, pretty any other topic in existence, doesn't write RW and imply that is the ARW beforehand and need to disambig what it's talking about in the first place (that's the reason for the need for adjectives after all). That should be already a strong indicator that ARW is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of RW, that some users must "feel" that is is just WP:Americentricity. Appah Rao (talk) 04:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * To be blunt: Books that talk about the French Revolutionary specify that it is about the French Revolutionary War(s). Books that are about "the Revolutionary War" are almost always about the American Revolutionary War. There are exactly 0 results in English where "the Revolution War" means the French, Cuban, or any other, despite my extensive searching. If you can prove otherwise, please do, because I would love for this not to be the case. menaechmi  (talk) 16:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Are you searching from a location in North America? I found several with hardly any bother. These two refer to 'Revolutionary War' in general terms [] []. These three are about a 'Revolutionary War' in France [] [] []. The 'Revolutionary War' here occurred in Cuba [] and this one in the Congo[]. This one happened in Russia [] and this one in Korea []. Apparently it also refers to a war in Ireland [] and San Salvador [].--Ykraps (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * To me, that makes it all the more telling that a search for "Revolutionary War" is so dense with results on the American war (in the first five pages, I found one result that was not about it). Google's algorithm is clearly considering them more "relevant", though we could debate why that is. --BDD (talk) 13:57, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * In the English Wikipedia, an article very similar to your search term is actually French Revolutionary Wars, which is a plural form. It differentiates from the American Revolutionary War, which is a singular form, and most of the titles that have "Revolutionary War" in them are redirects. Moreover, "Revolutionary war" (lowercase w in war) and "Revolutionary Wars" (plural) redirect to Revolutionary War (disambiguation). --2601:646:9280:BA70:EC62:B745:175:2A21 (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2017 (UTC)


 * , you missed Peasants' Revolt. Also National Revolution. The Anarchy surely isn't the only anarchy in history. The Hunger War isn't the only war where destructive scorched earth tactics caused a famine. War of succession is a type of war but there was never a war named War of Succession – that's a red link, not a redirect to the generic term. And what's up with all the pollution of Revolutionary War (disambiguation)? Special:Search/intitle:Revolutionary War shows precisely one other war with this Proper Name: French Revolutionary War – and even that is more commonly referred to in the plural form. This disambiguation should be kept as clean and tidy as Social War and Gothic War. The objective of the disambiguation page is to help readers quickly find the topic they are interested in, not to comprehensively list all wars that could be characterized as revolutionary wars. List of revolutions and rebellions and List of wars of independence serve that purpose. We want to avoid talk pages discussions like this that need to be fixed by edits like this edit. People searching for the Civil War shouldn't have to waste time scanning through a list of hundreds of wars to find American Civil War or English Civil War. What the heck is the American Revolutionary War doing in the list of civil wars anyway? That's quite a stretch. Nobody has yet documented a single erroneous link to [ [Revolutionary War]] that was intended to link to something other than the American war. My comments from the previous discussion are still valid. "It sounds to me like your saying we shouldn't right the wrong because you can't be bothered to fix the links. Is that it in a nutshell?"-- ... I'll be more blunt this time, in my response to editors like you and Ykraps. I'm not saying that I can't be bothered to fix the links, I'm saying that you can't be bothered. The only things you can be bothered with are submitting requests like this, changing redirects, moving pages and mucking up disambiguation pages. that's the easy stuff. You want to bother me to clean up all the links. I've done a few; this is a case where bypassing redirects to the more specific title is not controversial. See diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, and diff. That's just a dozen out of hundreds that need to be done; your turn to do the rest. Let me know about any you find that need to be fixed to link to a different war. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:59, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a bit harsh. I've just checked user contributions and out of the three of us, it appears that you are the one who spends most of his time changing redirects, moving pages and mucking up disambiguation pages.--Ykraps (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Replace - Turn this into a disambiguation page. Nowhere outside of North America does Revolutionary War automatically mean American Revolutionary War.--Ykraps (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but that should be everywhere outside the US. In Canada we learned about the American Revolution in school. The War of 1812 was an effort to extend the 1776 rebellion by seizing Canada. Canadians were not impressed and burned down the White House. Legacypac (talk) 19:32, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep per the evidence above and in previous discussions that the American conflict is the primary topic for the capitalised proper noun phrase "Revolutionary War". Thryduulf (talk) 23:59, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Replace - Turn this into a disambiguation page. Per WP:SURPRISE.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  06:11, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Convert into a disambig page, i.e.: replace as noted above. K.e.coffman (talk) 07:27, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Replace into a disambiguation page, but I'd support putting American Revolutionary War at the very top of that page as the most common search target. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 07:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * merge with Revolutionary War (disambiguation). It seems pretty clear that the American rebellion is the primary "revolutionary war" in English language sources, but it is also obvious that someone might type it in intending to find the French "revolutionary wars", the Russian revolutionary wars, etc. Furius (talk) 00:33, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943  (talk) 19:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Replace with a disambiguation per most other users, as this seems most reasonable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ToThAc (talk • contribs) 16:20, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

2 life
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . -- Tavix  ( talk ) 17:26, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * 2 life → Fiddler on the Roof (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2_life&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This was retargeted in reference to To Life (song), which didn't have its own article at the time. Is it an acceptable modification for any of the subjects listed at To Life? BDD (talk) 18:13, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete I don't see that usage in Fiddler Most general searches point to the Back 2 Life song or album. "2life" points to some non-notable businesses and apps. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 19:03, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, Second Life could be the most plausible target (compare to the more obvious 2nd Life), though I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it should point there. --BDD (talk) 16:30, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Internet Explorer 12
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 September 29%23Internet Explorer 12

Im' a rocket man
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  .   Anarchyte  ( work  &#124;  talk )  06:38, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Im' a rocket man → Rocket Man (song) (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Im%27_a_rocket_man&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Unlikely typo, this is actually the only page title that begins with Im ' . The pageviews show that this isn't being actively used. -  C HAMPION  (talk) (contributions) (logs) 10:52, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Not a stylization either. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:54, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete: Typo and pageviews guarantee this redirect's deletion. Searching via this variation should still bring the reader to the correct article. ToThAc (talk) 17:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm a rocket man does redirect properly, so the Im' version isn't needed. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 02:17, 22 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete unlikely typo. LibStar (talk) 07:39, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Iceland–Turkey relations
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . -- Tavix  ( talk ) 17:13, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Iceland–Turkey relations → Foreign relations of Iceland (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iceland%E2%80%93Turkey_relations&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Iceland-Turkey relations → Foreign relations of Iceland (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iceland-Turkey_relations&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

this redirect should be deleted, the outcome of recent AfD was delete not redirect: Articles for deletion/Iceland–Turkey relations. LibStar (talk) 00:43, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. An AfD being closed as "delete" does not preclude a useful redirect being created at the same title unless the deletion discussion actively considered and rejected the redirect (which didn't happen on this occasion). However, there is no mention of Turkey on the target page (and no mention of Iceland at Foreign relations of Turkey either), so the redirect is misleading. Thryduulf (talk) 09:54, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * note I've added (with a hyphen rather than n-dash) to this nomination. Thryduulf (talk) 09:57, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: To the extent that Iceland has foreign relations with other countries to a degree insufficient to support a freestanding article, those should be covered at Foreign relations of Iceland. However, if no one is willing to add the material, then the redirects should be deleted. bd2412  T 19:07, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.