Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 August 14

August 14
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on August 14, 2018.

YBN Almighty Jay
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to YBN (collective). The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 16:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * YBN Almighty Jay → Rich the Kid (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=YBN_Almighty_Jay&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Redirect to target that doesn't mention this name. Inclusion in other lists seem based on presumed notability due to this redirect. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 18:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Retarget to YBN (collective), which I just created to redirect to YBN Nahmir. He is associated with this group until he becomes independently notable as with YBN Cordae. Here's an article where he was dating Blac Chyna  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 01:11, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

NC Province
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 August 22%23NC Province

2018-19 El Niño event
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedy deleted  per WP:G5 by . -- Tavix  ( talk ) 14:08, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * 2018-19 El Niño event → El Niño (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2018-19_El_Ni%C3%B1o_event&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Subject violates WP:CRYSTALBALL. Also there has been no El Nino event this year (the current status is actually neutral). ~ KN2731 {t · c} 16:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per the argument made by the nominator. El Nino for this year is speculation and as it isnt taking place, this should be deleted. Figfires Send me a message! 04:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete – Prematurely created; there has been no El Niño event yet. Master of Time   ( talk ) 08:18, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment from nominator link has been speedy deleted under WP:G5. ~ KN2731 {t · c} 14:07, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Ball (baseball
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 22:24, 21 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Ball (baseball → Strike zone (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ball_(baseball&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

It's missing the closing parenthesis, and I've seen redirects like these get deleted before. ToThAc (talk) 12:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete it outta here. Ball (baseball) already exists and people typing it in wouldn't stop without the closed parenthesis. Those typing on the phone should get the closed parentheses one as an option.  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 20:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete more of a strike 3 than a ball.--76.65.40.44 (talk) 21:11, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:RDAB. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 10:02, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete for reasons stated above. - Sonicwave ( talk )  23:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Alabama American band
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 August 22%23Alabama American band

Wikipedia:Newsletter
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to News. I performed a little admin magic and moved the revisions pertaining to the list to List of newsletters, to which I will link from News. Hopefully that encompasses most suggestions brought forth here. -- Tavix  ( talk ) 17:13, 24 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Newsletter → Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Newsletter&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Why not redirect to Administrators' newsletter or Category:WikiProject newsletters, which has a list of Wikipedia newsletters? The editor  whose username is Z0 14:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Should we write a new newsletter index or point readers to News?
 * Dabify per nom, and because adding hatnotes for the other newsletters to Wikipedia Signpost would mess up the Signpost's nice design. This is a plausible search term, but there are obviously other targets which could be of use to someone who searches for this (let's not list all the WikiProject newsletters though, there are dozens). – Arms &amp; Hearts (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Retarget to News, which I wasn't aware existed when I wrote the above. The existing page serves the purpose I had in mind and there's no need to duplicate it. It could be expanded to include more of the content in the draft currently at Newsletter, but that's not really a matter for RfD. – Arms &amp; Hearts (talk) 20:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep - Only ~10 links exist (hence the weak) but this has pointed to the current target since 2008. Shortcuts can be and are commonly ambiguous. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 03:17, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Dabify per Arms & Hearts. Many plausible on-wiki newsletters exist, and adding hatnotes would be obviously unhelpful and unsightly. We can easily have the project-wide newsletters, and then a link to the category with the WikiProject specific ones. Patar knight - chat/contributions 06:39, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Disambig per Patar Knight and Arms & Hearts. Thryduulf (talk) 08:59, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Retarget to the existing list of newsletters at News that is more comprehensive than that drafted below this redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 12:50, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * How about now? <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em"><u style="color:#7f2ed1">The editor <u style="color:#bfa6d8"> whose username is <u style="color:#7f2ed1">Z0  13:18, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If a fully comprehensive list of newsletters is desirable in addition to News and the category (and I'm not convinced that it is worthwhile), then List of newsletters would be a better title. Thryduulf (talk) 13:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Retarget per Thryduulf. Good find. Since there's already a good list of newsletters, no need to maintain another one by creating a separate dab page. The Signpost is listed prominently there already. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 13:16, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Disambig since the expanded dab is now more extensive than News, and per WP:NOTDUPE the category doesn't bar the existence of a list. The list could certainly be moved to List of newsletters, but then Newsletter should still redirect to that list as R from list topic. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 05:43, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * My point is that News is a better target for most people using Newsletter than a simple list of newsletters, no matter how comprehensive, as it includes other relevant news sources and limits the list of newsletters to those which are active. Thryduulf (talk) 11:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deryck C. 11:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Kalyanasundaranar
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 August 24%23Kalyanasundaranar

Western education
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Education. There is consensus that Education covers the concept of "Western education" well-enough to warrant a redirect. I'll add R with possibilities to mark there may be an article to develop here. -- Tavix  ( talk ) 16:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Western education → secular education (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Western_education&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

clearly not a good target because not all western education is secular Prisencolin (talk) 04:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * It defently needs a different target. For example, North America has a large number of Catholic schools which are clearly not secular. This should be deleted unless a better target is found.--76.65.40.44 (talk) 06:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Indeed, this really does need a better target. It has several incoming links from article space, the one at Zou people says "...many neo-literates among the Zous were convinced about the power of western education and medicine, perceiving these things as synonymous with Christianity itself." which makes the secular education target clearly incorrect. The association with western medicine is present in at least one of the other links too, which gives a hint about what is meant. We have articles Traditional education and Classical education but I don't think they are quite right. I'll leave a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Education about this discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 11:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Education, a comprehensive article, the great majority of which covers modern, "Western", education. Failing that, retarget to school, the defining institution of Western education. Johnbod (talk) 12:42, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Two articles- I haven't got my reference books with me here in Congénies but if we are going to make a change, lets get it right. Western Education stems from the Greek tradition of Socrates, and the Roman interpretation of the need for the elite to recieve an education in the Greek manner and the plebs to recieve a training. The Western as distinct from the orthodox tradition was different, and we never mentioned the Eastern cultures of China, and South Asia on our BEd philosopy of Education course. There really is enough material to work up an FA on this.


 * Secular education is equally fascinating to the right sort of person. In Europe the Kings had subcontracted education of boys to the church, and with naissance of secularism there was an awareness that something was wrong. Your couldn't get tenure at UK university with out entering Holy Orders. The whole curriculum of the English public school rested on divinity, and latin and greek (a left over) so, we now enter the debate for the control of the curriculum. Material for an article there! Now we have the hidden subsidy of the church by the state through village schools. The 1944 Act was the historic compromise where religion was imposed on every school in country in return for the church handing over its assets (village church primary schools in dire physical conditions where no other school existed) and a generous financial package. Secular schools took a giant stem back! I believe that the church still holds on to all major public schools. That said it was possible to spend 4 years at a C of E College and never step foot in their chapel. We still have funding differences in austerity Nottingham between the non-church schools and the church schools. I was reminded last night about the perils of insisting your 8yr goes to a 'secular' school in protestent NINSS. Finland is secular MATTI KOTIRANTA Religion and the Secular State in Finland but Merenmies_MastersThesis_Final show illegal permeation of religion and breaches of human rights law. I have not discussed the separation of church and state in post Sarkosy France- but I can do. Without my books, I think, given attention, we have enough notability and material to do a second article.ClemRutter (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment judging from the incoming links and comments, there are multiple distinct concepts which editors of other articles are trying to reach when they invoke the phrase "Western education":
 * Liberal education or liberal arts education
 * The topic referred to by the links from Zou people and Lu Xun: English- or French-medium education in schools run by European expatriates or schools in the metropole, in contrast to the local traditional style of education based on systems which pre-dated contact with Europe (e.g. education for the Confucian court examination system in Vietnam). Colonial education, more or less (oh well, that's red). This would not necessarily be liberal arts education, but quite possibly limited to vocational training in bookkeeping, business correspondence, and such to meet the needs of the colonial government and business
 * The topic referred to by the links from Education in Ethiopia and Primer with Various Instructions, which appears to me to be something like the creation of an educational system by the government, with standardisation of language, teaching practices, etc. State school and compulsory education and some other articles capture bits and pieces of that concept.
 * I think we'd be better off writing some sort of index or disambiguation page here, not the least to prevent it from getting occupied by an article exclusively referring to one of the above concepts to the exclusion of the others. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 17:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Retarget to Education It's not secular as Eastern education can also be secular. We don't even have an Eastern education redirect. There are topics that suggest Western educational model might be a suitable article, as mentioned in Indigenous education and other articles. But Education would be a good general redirect.  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 21:09, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose retarget to Education as promoting systematic bias. Saying that "Western education" is the same as "Education" is promoting it as the normal and marginalising all other forms as lesser. I'm leaning towards 59.149's set index idea as the best suggested yet, but I'm not sure what form it would take. Thryduulf (talk) 14:26, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If it goes to Education, then Eastern education redirect should be created as well just to neutralize the bias. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't actually solve the problem I identified, it would just make a second parallel problem. Thryduulf (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * On a similar case, if it can be indexed like Eastern medicine, that would work. Right now Western medicine just goes to Medicine. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Retarget per Johnbod and AngusWOOF. I don't agree with the systemic bias argument: we redirect narrower or more specific terms to broader or more general articles all the time, and to do so is not to suggest an equivalence between the redirect and the target, much less to suggest that the redirect predominates over other topics mentioned in the target. If Education were a redirect to Western education that would of course be implicitly saying that western education is the only form of education, or the only worthwhile form, and I've !voted to delete plenty of redirects on those grounds (usually general terms pointing to U.S.-specific articles). But this is a different situation; indeed, in a sense it's the complete opposite. I also don't think that a disambiguation page would be useful here – there are simply not enough articles we could list while adhering to WP:DABENTRY – and set indexes are, as I understand the guideline, only for topics that share a name. – Arms &amp; Hearts (talk) 18:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.