Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 March 4

March 4
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on March 4, 2018.

Paul Cox, Artist
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Musicians are artists, too! ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 00:25, 12 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Paul Cox, Artist → Paul Cox (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Cox,_Artist&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Redirect left by page move to Paul Cox (artist), subsequently deleted. Now redirects to a dab with no artists. Certes (talk) 22:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - I think this falls under WP:G8. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:47, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and housekeeping. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 03:56, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - This could've been speedily deleted, but then I'm positive that the result of a standard discussion will be the same, anyways. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 00:50, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Ethiop
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was withdrawn  . -- Tavix  ( talk ) 07:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Ethiop → Ethiopia (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ethiop&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Seems a bit too implausible of a typo. Also, it's a Neelix redirect... Thegreatluigi (talk) 19:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Withdrawn by nominator. Well, I got this one completely wrong. That'll teach me to just assume something is an implausible typo and not bother to check it properly... Thegreatluigi (talk) 04:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Don't delete. Either Keep or, soft-redirect to wiktionary, or like Ethiope, redirect to People of Ethiopia.  This is most definitely not a typo, it refers to an Ethiopian or really any just dark-skinned person.  Sure, it's archaic, and sure, it's a bit racist, but it's definitely used out there.  Ethiop(e) is rather well known thanks to a particularly beautiful bit of pining from Romeo:

O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright! It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night Like a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear; Beauty too rich for use, for earth too dear!


 * That it appears to be a typo is mere proof that this is useful to have. I'll admit to being a bit biased, though. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 20:53, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep (or whatever) per Amorymeltzer and WP:RFD. Bit of a stretch, maybe, but not ambiguous. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:48, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

African lions and big cats by country
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was Mostly delete  . I've tried to close or comment in this a half dozen times over the last week or two, but was hopeful we'd get more input.  We have not, and there's no point in prolonging this another month.  I'm keeping a couple where they are still used in the page, but otherwise deleting the rest.  I'm actually marginally in favor of keeping all of these, but I couldn't figure out a way to comment that I thought would change the outcome; I still think this should be closed as delete. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 11:54, 14 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Moroccan lion → Barbary lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moroccan_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Botswanan lion → Southern African lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Botswanan_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Zambian lion → Southern African lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zambian_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Amazonian jaguar → South American jaguar (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amazonian_jaguar&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Zimbabwean lion → Southern African lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zimbabwean_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Rhodesian lion → Southern African lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rhodesian_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Namibian lion → Southern African lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Namibian_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Mauretanian lion → Barbary lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mauretanian_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Tanzanian lion → East African lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tanzanian_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Tunisian lion → Barbary lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tunisian_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Libyan lion → Barbary lion (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Libyan_lion&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Term not found in target article: nothing to indicate that this is a useful redirect. Pam D  21:56, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I combined these entries as they are generally the same concept of using a nation to describe a lion without any sourcing. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 02:44, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete as obscure synonym at best. Closest plausible target that I got was a link to Rhodesian Ridgeback which is also known as the Rhodesian Lion dog. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:57, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Namibian lion, Zambian lion, Zimbabwean lion, Algerian lion, Mauretanian lion and Moroccan lion, because I found links to keep these in | Southern African lion and | Barbary lion. As for Libyan lion, keep it as a redirect to Omar Mukhtar, if not Barbary lion. Leo1pard (talk) 13:48, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Adding "External links" is not the way to go about this. If you believe that these alternative names are valid and useful, please add them to the text of the article, using your sources as references. Thanks. Pam  D  22:28, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I turned links into references to add them and information in them to the texts of | Barbary lion, | East African lion and | Southern African lion. Leo1pard (talk) 07:45, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943  (talk) 13:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 17:45, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

The richest people of Ukraine 2009
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Note: List of richest people of Ukraine (2009), List of richest people of Ukraine (2010), and List of richest people of Ukraine (2006) are all Rs with history, unlike this. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 00:34, 12 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The richest people of Ukraine 2009 → List of Ukrainians by net worth (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_richest_people_of_Ukraine_2009&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Delete. As the only article on Wikipedia that starts with "The richest people of...", this redirect has no precedent and no use, it is not clear why it was created (its creator is no longer active). No article links to there, and WP:RFD#KEEP#3 does not seem to apply to it. Such lists are written in a different format. Shalom11111 (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Not useful to have a yearly list if the list it redirects to isn't formatted as such. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:41, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Tally board
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Tally. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 18:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Tally board → Score (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tally_board&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Redirect to a dab page; not obvious which of the many entries would be an appropriate target, but term is not appropriate as a redirect to the dab page itself. Pam D  23:02, 22 February 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Retarget to Tally (voting) as most notable usage and hatnote to Tally (disambiguation) and Standings (for leader board in sports) as other options.  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 15:02, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I would retarget this as well, but to 'Tally' (where 'Tally (disambiguation)' goes to) since "making a tally on a board" is inherently vague and can refer to counting a bunch of different things. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 17:20, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 16:57, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Retarget to DAB page Tally. I'd never heard of the voting-related meaning. In UK, a tally board is a board or slate on which you keep tally of a score (e.g. in pub games). "Tally" can also be a near-synonym of North American "tab" in the sense of bar bill. I don't think there is a WP:PRIMARY meaning. Narky Blert (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Doobious
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . ~  Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 00:31, 12 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Doobious → Doubt (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doobious&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Is this necessary? Articles I've seen for this refer either to a non-notable band or a purposed mix of the word "dubious" and "doobie" There's also an indie film called Doobious Sources   AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:11, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. While misspelling "dubious" like that isn't entirely beyond the bounds of plausibility, considering someone typing in "Doobious" is just as likely to be searching for something else, I don't think this redirect is terribly helpful. Thegreatluigi (talk) 16:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - There are a lot of typos that merit becoming redirects, but this doesn't seem worth keeping to me either. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 05:57, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Shit pump
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Killiondude (talk) 03:23, 14 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Shit pump → Television (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shit_pump&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I don't know how common this slang term is, but judging from the fact it's had 2 hits in the last 30 days, I doubt it's common enough to justify the redirect. Thegreatluigi (talk) 15:46, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment 4-13 hits per month since they started keeping track of stats, otherwise the redirect has been around since 2008. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:25, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm, maybe it's not as obscure as I assumed. I should probably have checked that beforehand... Still, I don't think we need redirects for every single possible slang term, do we? Thegreatluigi (talk) 16:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete Television is #7 on urban dictionary's list; the rest are terms for "useless person," perhaps particularly associated with Canada. I imagine traffic might be more associated with those uses. ~  Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 16:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete the traffic is bot background noise. No one is using this. Legacypac (talk) 21:38, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per everyone. it's been explained to me before that the new pageviews tool filters out bot views, so those 9 hits in the last 90 days were likely to have been humans. But that's far from enough activity to justify this redirect which might not be accurate anyway. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:51, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Carstairs family
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 March 14%23Carstairs family

1900s walt timeline
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . ~  Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 01:09, 12 March 2018 (UTC)


 * 1900s walt timeline → Walt Disney (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1900s_walt_timeline&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Seems too specific to be a useful redirect. I can't imagine many people typing in precisely "1900s walt timeline".. Thegreatluigi (talk) 15:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete implausible Legacypac (talk) 21:39, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. If anything it should redirect to Timeline of The Walt Disney Company, but the lemma is just really implausible. BegbertBiggs (talk) - [//de.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BegbertBiggs de] 23:45, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete Who would search for this term?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:11, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. However, consider creating Walt Disney timeline to point to company timeline as above. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:03, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Thegreatluigi (talk) 18:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Justin Bieber's hair
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . ~  Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 18:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Justin Bieber's hair → Justin Bieber (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Justin_Bieber%27s_hair&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Aside from the implausibility, and the fact it's had no hits at all in the last 30 days, the actual article makes almost no mention at all of his hair specifically. Thegreatluigi (talk) 15:08, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. It looks like content from the article previously at Justin Bieber's hair was merged without attribution into the Justin Bieber article by Dr. Blofeld on 10 April 2011. So, per WP:RK#1, this should probably be kept, although the fact that (as far as I can see) no attribution was made at the time complicates this, as does the fact that the content was only in the article for 24 hours or so, unless it was restored and removed again sometime in the intervening years. If there were no attribution-related reason to keep then I would concur with the nomination that the redirect is useless to the reader as the target article mentions the singer's hair only once in passing. – Arms &amp; Hearts (talk) 16:05, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete not a valid topic and a pointless redirect. Legacypac (talk) 21:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep as R with history - if Dr. Blofeld copied the content into the main article then the history is required for attribution even if it is no longer in use (it exists in the history). The redirect is otherwise harmless. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:53, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Cadbury's (Brand of yummy chocolate)
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . ~  Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 00:32, 12 March 2018 (UTC)


 * <span id="Cadbury's (Brand of yummy chocolate)">Cadbury's (Brand of yummy chocolate) → Cadbury (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cadbury%27s_(Brand_of_yummy_chocolate)&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Seems a fairly implausible redirect, thanks to the word "yummy", if nothing else. Thegreatluigi (talk) 15:04, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete as WP:RNEUTRAL not established term. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - unnecessary disambiguation, and unduly promotional to boot. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is a no-brainer as it was obviously some sort of trolling or silly "test" edit. SunChaser (talk) 08:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Draft:Level structure
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedy keep  . As discussed at Village pump (proposals)/Archive 135, the consensus was to keep these and not to delete after a period of time. ~  Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 21:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Draft:Level structure → Level structure (algebraic geometry) (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Level_structure&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Non useful redirect from draft space to main space.

(db-r2 does not work in this case) D.Lazard (talk) 14:33, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep The redirect from Draft namespace to mainspace is specifically endorsed by policy to provide linking history of the page, and to encourage other editors that might want to create a draft by the title be encouraged to edit mainspace. All things that would have been known if you actually read the operating documents. Hasteur (talk) 17:53, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Please review WP:RK and consider withdrawing this nomination. Hasteur (talk) 17:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:RK says "avoid deleting redirects if they have a potentially useful page history, or an edit history that should be kept to comply with the licensing requirements for a merge". Here the talk page history has been moved with the draft, and presently, the talk page history of the draft is reduced to the move log. Thus WP:RK does not apply. Your argument about "encouraging to edit mainspace" is a nonsense, as if we follow it, we should create, in the draft space, a redirect for every article of the main space. By the way, it is surprisingly that an editor that has been very involved in removing stale drafts, and specifically Taku's drafts, is now against removing useless drafts, specifically when Taku has removed the draft from the main space. D.Lazard (talk) 18:43, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per Hasteur and per WP:CHEAP and since it is a R from move that targets where the content moved to. Steel1943  (talk) 19:20, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Maybe a proposal can be made for automatically deleting such redirects after a certain period of time has elapsed since the move, but until that happens, let's not debate them individually here as there are tens of thousands of them. At any rate, I don't see how this particular one can be deleted anytime soon: it was the title of the page for three years and it was only moved today. Linkrot isn't such a big issue with drafts as it is with articles, but it's still an issue. – Uanfala (talk) 21:31, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

7-1
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 March 14%237-1

Genesis (2018)
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Genesis. Killiondude (talk) 03:24, 14 March 2018 (UTC)


 * <span id="Genesis (2018)">Genesis (2018) → TNA Genesis (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_(2018)&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Pro wrestling events tend to be dabbed with just a year, but for this event named like this is terribly vague and could refer to Genesis (2018 film). AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 06:12, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Perhaps turn it into a disambiguation given the context of the film. BegbertBiggs (talk) - [//de.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BegbertBiggs de] 23:42, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Most events are just the year, however when it could be something else it doesn't always happen that way. For example, Turning Point (2009) redirects to the main Turning Point disambiguation page, while the event is at Turning Point (2009 wrestling). There is no reason why Genesis couldn't be the target of this, and we just create a wrestling one similar to the turning point example. -  Galatz Talk  23:58, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Genesis per what Galatz said, and tag R from incorrect disambiguation or R from incomplete disambiguation. If anyone wants to create Genesis (2018 wrestling) or some similar unambiguous redirect, that would be fine. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:23, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.