Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 September 23

September 23
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on September 23, 2018.

Business family
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 18:57, 1 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Business family → Family (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Business_family&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not mentioned in target; suggest deleting. Paul_012 (talk) 13:06, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Considered a weak retarget to Family business but that is questionable:    Term is not used that often.  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 19:59, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete agree that this is a questionable target. AW linked valid URLs explaining the delete and I agree. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  08:22, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Cafe
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . No comment about the content at Cafe/Café and Coffeehouse, but there's good support below that the content on those pages should be connected as opposed to pointed to a pure dab like Cafe (disambiguation), so keep for now.  That conversation can/should be held elsewhere, so no prejudice against a redirection/move within this vein. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 19:06, 1 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Cafe → Coffeehouse (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cafe&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Café → Coffeehouse (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Caf%C3%A9&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Cafe is a problematic word as it appears to mean different things to different cultures, and while it appears for some people to hold a slightly different meaning to café, the two are often interchangeable, so it may be wise to discuss both terms together. Currently Cafe redirects to Coffeehouse, though in some parts of the world (such as the UK), a cafe is understood to be similar to a diner or greasy spoon - it is a small, cheap, eatery, which focuses on delivering quick meals. Dictionary definitions indicate in general that a cafe is a small eatery of some sort serving food and drink, and some will mention that the eatery may serve coffee, but on the whole they don't give coffeehouse as the primary topic. Examples:, , , ,. Now, while in the UK, the cafe is commonly understood to be some form of cheap diner, as shown by this BBC article:, this is not a global understanding, and even in the UK, the term cafe is rather nebulous - it can mean a greasy spoon or diner, but it can also mean a tea room or a coffeehouse. I am not seeing coffeehouse as the primary topic for cafe, but nor am I seeing any other form of eatery as being primary. As such it appears appropriate to make Cafe a disambiguation page by moving Cafe (disambiguation) to Cafe. [I was unsure if this should indeed be a move discussion rather than a redirect discussion, but landed here as it seems this is more about which direction "cafe" should point, rather than about renaming Cafe (disambiguation) to Cafe.]  SilkTork (talk) 10:32, 4 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment Currently, both Café and Cafe redirect to Coffeehouse. Cafe (disambiguation) points out British cafe, which in turn asserts that in the U.K., "Though it uses the same word origin [cafe] is distinct from the term 'café' which is generally used to refer to a coffeehouse, tea shop, or European bar serving alcohol. A British cafe does not serve alcohol." It might be ideal to turn both Café and Cafe into redirects to Cafe (disambiguation) and let that disambiguation page do what it does, and leave the even finer points about the distinction between the two to Wiktionary. Largoplazo (talk) 16:56, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. I've added Café to this nomination as whatever happens they should both lead to the same place. I'm at present undecided about what that place is though. Thryduulf (talk) 16:57, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article discusses the different uses of the word "Café", which should clarify the situation well enough. -- Tavix ( talk ) 17:23, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The explanation in Coffeehouse for the different uses of the terms cafe and café is perhaps misplaced, and perhaps what we need is for cafe and café to point to a WP:CONCEPTDAB. As pointed out above, coffeehouse is not the primary topic for either cafe and café, and the lead of Coffeehouse should not be acting like a broad-concept article for terms that redirect there, rather it should be giving an overview of the topic itself - the place where people mainly drink coffee. SilkTork (talk) 09:30, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd be fine with moving the explanation for the different uses of the word Café to an article on that word, similar to some articles at Category:English words. -- Tavix ( talk ) 17:31, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that would also work. The word has so many related but slightly different meanings - in France a café is the equivalent of a British pub or an American bar. We have this article - Parisian café, which focuses on the most notable of French cafés, but nothing on French cafés in general. A page which doesn't just list alternate meanings of cafe and café, but puts them in context would be helpful. SilkTork (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

@ User:Tavix. For clarity, are you now supporting moving cafe and café to their own article page, either a WP:CONCEPTDAB or an article like Yes and no and are no longer supporting Keep, or are you happy to support either keeping the redirect or creating a new cafe article? SilkTork (talk) 22:44, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd be satisfied either way. -- Tavix ( talk ) 20:31, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Worth discussing further
 * Retarget both to Cafe (disambiguation) the term can have several meanings depending on location --Danski454 (talk) 16:05, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Either keep, or re-create Café as a WP:CONCEPTDAB (in effect partially reverting the February 2013 merger) per SilkTork's above reply to Tavix's comment. It's confusing that the Coffeehouse article begins with an etymology section describing the word "Café", but I'm not feeling too strongly about this. --Paul_012 (talk) 06:13, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, oppose redirecting to Cafe (disambiguation). Café is a major enough concept that should point to a primary article, whether it's by its own title or under Coffeehouse. --Paul_012 (talk) 06:15, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 11:32, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep as is. Hatnote "cafe" (unaccented) to "British cafe/caff" atop the article. Café refers only to the coffeehouse, so not sure why it needs disambiguation. Note that we don't give special notice for Parisian café either. That "café" may refer to something closer to bistro than straight coffeehouse doesn't preclude that coffeehouses can also be close to bistros themselves. Same with "cafe"—better to disambiguate in the current article than to dab. (not watching, please )  czar  22:55, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

March 2054 lunar eclipse
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . In the spirit of WP:CRYSTAL #2, although it does worryingly imply that crystal balls work in the wikiverse. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 19:00, 1 October 2018 (UTC)


 * March 2054 lunar eclipse → Lunar eclipse (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=March_2054_lunar_eclipse&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Created as the result of a typo in a template which I just corrected. There is no lunar eclipse in March of 2054, so I do not see why this redirect should be retained. The only links to it are from the template and pages which use the template, so they should stop displaying soon. EclipseDude (talk) 05:44, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete as WP:CRYSTAL anyway. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 00:41, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. per nom. I'm not sure that WP:CRYSTAL applies to these sorts of astronomical events that can calculated in the manner eclipses are, but if there isn't one in 2054 then the redirect is misleading. Thryduulf (talk) 15:41, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. per nom as it was recently created in error-- D Big X ray ᗙ  08:24, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.