Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 21

March 21
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on March 21, 2020.

Wikkkipedia
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . There's a consensus for deletion. Noting CoffeeWithMarkets's comment that some of these terms do have particular prominence, there is no prejudice against recreation of these redirects pointing to more appropriate targets than a general article about satirical misspellings. signed,Rosguill talk 23:53, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Wikkkipedia → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikkkipedia&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * KKKatholic → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=KKKatholic&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Kkklinton → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kkklinton&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Barakkk Obama → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barakkk_Obama&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * KKKramer → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=KKKramer&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Wikkkileaks → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikkkileaks&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Windoze $levin → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windoze_$levin&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Suckerberg → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Suckerberg&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * SECtionalism → Satiric misspelling (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SECtionalism&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Example not used in target article. Was part of a WP:TRAINWRECK bundled nom in 2010 that ended in no consensus, but the examples not included in the article are probably good for deletion. I'll be adding more as I go along, but I'll try and avoid the trainwreck issue from the previous nomination. The link to the 2010 nom is Redirects for discussion/Log/2010 November 19. These are all not mentioned in the article, there are other such redirects, but didn't want to make the nom too big or TRAINWRECK issues might happen again with this one. Hog Farm (talk) 22:48, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete all these just clog things up. OcelotCreeper (talk) 23:37, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete all, this is Urban Dikkktionary stuff; and writing 'k' as 'kkk' isn't exactly satiric. Narky Blert (talk) 05:49, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Most of these appear to be empty insults without notability and can be just deleted. I'm seeing a few exceptions, though. "KKKatholic" reflects criticism of the Catholic Church as an organization for being insufficiently active in rooting out racism from certain pulpits, particularly when it comes to some American firebrands who defended Jim Crow and used KKK talking points (despite the KKK then and now being anti-Catholic to its core). "KKKlinton" reflects criticism of Bill and Hillary Clinton for their statements about and policies toward racial tension, particularly their historical advocacy for mass incarceration seen (rightly or wrongly) as ethnically biased. "KKKramer" refers, naturally enough, to comedian Michael Richards' bizarre n-word incident and unusual later actions. Otherwise, though, I'd delete these. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:46, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete all as obvious insults. J I P  &#124; Talk 23:06, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Wong Tsz Ho (footballer, born 1996)
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 07:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Wong Tsz Ho (footballer, born 1996) → Wong Tsz Ho (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wong_Tsz_Ho_(footballer,_born_1996)&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

1996 seems to be incorrect based on the article content. I would suggest deletion unless a justification can be provided. signed,Rosguill talk 20:21, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - it's unnecessary, as "Wong Tsz Ho" alone brings up the article. --Woofboy (talk) 22:23, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The point of this nomination is that the subject's article states that they are born in 1994, not 1996. The redirect Wong Tsz Ho (footballer, born 1996) also exists, but since the birth year in that redirect matches the birth year in the article, the aforementioned redirect is an appropriate R from unnecessary disambiguation. Steel1943  (talk) 01:27, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom since the birth year is inaccurate. Steel1943  (talk) 01:27, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - Redirects don't have to be strictly accurate, but this is misleading and unhelpful. There's no reason to keep it. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:20, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 13:16, 23 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - serves no purpose. GiantSnowman 13:18, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Bethany Joanna Perske
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 07:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Bethany Joanna Perske → Lauren Bacall (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bethany_Joanna_Perske&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Bacall was born "Betty Joan Perske", no indication that she was ever known as Bethany Joanna. Delete unless a justification can be provided. signed,Rosguill talk 19:59, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete unless a source is provided; if none can, it is 100% WP:OR. Betty can be a shortened version of at least Beatrice, Bethia and Elizabeth, and also a given name in its own right. Narky Blert (talk) 20:53, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete and see Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 16 for more of this page creator's contributions. Hog Farm (talk) 23:07, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Lieutenant General George Washington
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 28%23Lieutenant General George Washington

Micky Epic
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:03, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Micky Epic → Epic Mickey (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Micky_Epic&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Disney Micky Epic → Epic Mickey (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disney_Micky_Epic&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I'm not sure why someone would search for Epic Mickey using this format (other than getting the words backwards), and strangely we don't have Mickey Epic. While "Micky" is a plausible misspelling for "Mickey" (per Micky Mouse), I'm tilting towards delete on these two. Regards, SONIC  678  18:50, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete both - Neither of these seem particularly worth keeping to me either. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Nick Bianco
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:03, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Nick Bianco → Nicholas Bianco (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nick_Bianco&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This redirect was formerly a 2-entry disambiguation page but one entry was deleted and the page redirected. However, whilst the article Nicholas Bianco says that the subject was known as "Nicky", it doesn't say he was known as "Nick". Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:42, 14 March 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep. He's called "Nick" in sources like this, this and this (FBI/Congress records), so that "Nick Bianco" is a plausible search term. Narky Blert (talk) 12:04, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943  (talk) 18:26, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - He appears to be identified as such by Time as well. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

The Final World War
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:03, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The Final World War → World War III (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Final_World_War&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Delete per WP:CRYSTAL, there's currently no way of knowing if World War III will be the final World War. Regards, SONIC  678  18:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete – there could be a World War IV, and it may be fought with sticks and stones, but this redirect has no clear, reliably sourced, or correct target in any case. ComplexRational (talk) 19:47, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. WWI was supposed to be the war to end war, but turned out not to be. Narky Blert (talk) 20:56, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - ambiguous. We don't know how many world wars there will be, and other potential targets like Armageddon don't hold an exclusive hold on the phrase. Hog Farm (talk) 22:39, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete as unverifiably speculative. Even if world peace is declared at some point, we don't know for certain that yet another world war will never happen. Best to let the world end before creating redirects like this. Glades12 (talk) 07:53, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - This is all too vague and uncertain. I agree. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:28, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per all above. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 22:27, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Erdayastronaut
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 March 28%23Erdayastronaut

Decriminalization of marijuana (disambiguation)
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was Speedy delete by User:BD2412 per WP:G14  . (non-admin closure) Hog Farm (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * <span id="Decriminalization of marijuana (disambiguation)">Decriminalization of marijuana (disambiguation) → Legality of cannabis (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Decriminalization_of_marijuana_(disambiguation)&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Delete. The target article does not disambiguate the term "decriminalization of marijuana" (which is not ambiguous), it is an article about the decriminalization of marijuana. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 15:56, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have speedy deleted this, as should have been done when the dab page was converted to a redirect last year. BD2412  T 16:57, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Alethea Talbot, Countess of Shrewsbury
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * <span id="Alethea Talbot, Countess of Shrewsbury">Alethea Talbot, Countess of Shrewsbury → Alethea Howard, Countess of Arundel (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alethea_Talbot,_Countess_of_Shrewsbury&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Alethea Talbot was a daughter of an Earl and Countess of Shrewsbury. She married an Earl of Arundel and so became Countess of Arundel, but she could never have been Countess Of Shrewsbury. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. My researches agree with nom's; this looks like a mistake. It may have occurred because some of her father's subsidiary titles (but not the earldom) passed to her after his death; see the succession boxes in Gilbert Talbot, 7th Earl of Shrewsbury. Narky Blert (talk) 16:02, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Nathan Heywood (Arrowverse)
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * <span id="Nathan Heywood (Arrowverse)">Nathan Heywood (Arrowverse) → List of Legends of Tomorrow characters (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nathan_Heywood_(Arrowverse)&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

His real name is Nathaniel Heywood, and "Nathan" is never mentioned in the series; instead it's Nate. <b style="color: black;">Kailash29792</b> (talk)  07:14, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. No issue with this. --Gonnym (talk) 09:25, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename to Nate Heywood. OcelotCreeper (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Nate Heywood already exists. Steel1943  (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok then Rename to Nate Heywood (Arrowverse). OcelotCreeper (talk) 16:56, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Nate Heywood (Arrowverse) exists as well... Steel1943  (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * - See Moving_a_page, it's generally not a useful practice to move redirects. Hog Farm (talk) 18:11, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Generally, redirects should be moved only when there is useful edit history at the title, which the nominated redirect does not have. Steel1943  (talk) 18:25, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. All of the redirects I suggested to rename it to already exist. OcelotCreeper (talk) 23:35, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Southern Reich
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Southern Reich → New Swabia (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Southern_Reich&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This doesn't look like a term used for New Swabia. I did a search for "Southern Reich", and it looks like it mainly referred to the Southern areas controlled by Nazi Germany in World War II. Here's a few examples I found with geographic markers: missions in the southern Reich and Hungary ... Up the Danube; To the Southern Reich ... Salzburg, Austria, a collecting point for Luftwaffe units in the Southern Reich ... up the Italian 'Boot' into the southern Reich. -- Tavix ( talk ) 02:55, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. (1) Another general geographic mention: "the southern Reich and Hungary" in this link (note the lowercase 's'). (2) A search for Südliches Reich ('Southern Reich') threw up only de:Südliches Han-Reich, very much a WP:PTM. (3) de:Südreich ('South Reich') is an exact equivalent of Southern Kingdom, a placename which the Nazis would probably not have cared to recycle. (4) de:Neuschwabenland and de:Deutsche Antarktische Expedition 1938/39 mention Deutsches Reich ('Third Reich'), but nothing resembling 'Southern Reich'. (5) Google searches for 'neuschwabenland südliches reich' and 'neuschwabenland südreich' turned up nothing at all. Narky Blert (talk) 15:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - Both "Southern" and "Reich" are rather ambiguous in this context. It seems best to simply let people use the search engine. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:24, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Evangelista,Rey
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * <span id="Evangelista,Rey">Evangelista,Rey → Rey Evangelista (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evangelista,Rey&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Formatting error, there is a space missing. -- Tavix ( talk ) 02:30, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete obvious error. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete, clearly an error. Hog Farm (talk) 18:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Narky Blert (talk) 21:02, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Axles on roler coasters
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Axles on roler coasters → Roller coaster (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Axles_on_roler_coasters&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Surprisingly enough, the target article does not mention axles. Not quite as surprising, but I found it interesting that spelled "roller" incorrectly twice while creating a short article: The toller costers axles keep the wheels intact with the ride. Without them we would be riding on metal strips that screech. -- Tavix ( talk ) 01:28, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete clear error. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:30, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - I also don't think that this is useful. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:52, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Dellete. Impllausiblle mispeling. Also - not mentioned in the target and therefore completely useless. Narky Blert (talk) 22:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

File:Ffviiremake.png
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . WP:SNOW (non-admin closure) Utopes (talk / cont) 19:21, 26 March 2020 (UTC)


 * [[File:Ffviiremake.png]] → File:Final Fantasy VII (Famicom) title screen.png (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Ffviiremake.png&action=history history] · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Originally nominated for speedy deletion by @2005-Fan with the reason: "unused file redirect"  F ASTILY   01:14, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. R from move that meets the criteria to be kept per WP:FILEREDIRECT. Steel1943  (talk) 02:07, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep for two reasons:
 * Being unused is not a sole reason to delete any redirect.
 * The target file was at this name for 3 years, so deleting the latter may break outside links (K4).
 * Glades12 (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:FILEREDIRECT. Hog Farm (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:FILERED. An image existed at this title for a few years before it was moved. Deletion would only perhaps be appropriate if the move occured shortly after creation. — Godsy (TALK<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"> CONT ) 04:16, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - I agree. It would be one thing if the previous title was totally incorrect or otherwise misleading, but that's not true in this case. I don't see a particular reason that we have to get rid of the redirect. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:26, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.