Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 24

January 24
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on January 24, 2022.

5th Missouri Cavalry Regiment
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 1%235th Missouri Cavalry Regiment

Difang Jiaohui
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Difang Jiaohui → Local churches (affiliation) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Difang jiaohui → Local churches (affiliation) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This seems to be a Chinese transliteration of the name of this denomination which is not present within the WP en article. I think it should be deleted per WP:RFOREIGN. Veverve (talk) 20:10, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep and add a Infobox Chinese to the article. The Chinese name of a denomination which was started in China clearly meets point #1 of WP:RFOREIGN Original or official names of people, places, institutions. 61.239.39.90 (talk) 05:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Strong keep per WP:RFOREIGN. China-related topics are often referred to in English using their pinyin transliterations, so this is a very plausible search term. The organization's Chinese names should be added to the article, of course.. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:35, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Thinking centre
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Thinking centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

A search on Google Scholar and on Google Books shows this expression is used to refer to numerous things (no primary topic), and a small minority of times to this obscure esoteric doctrine. I recommend deletion. Veverve (talk) 20:07, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:29, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Instinctive Centre
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Instinctive Centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

A search on Google Scholar and on Google Books shows this expression is used to refer to numerous things (no primary topic), and a small minority of times to this obscure esoteric doctrine. I recommend deletion. Veverve (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Moving Centre
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Moving Centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

A search on Google Scholar and on Google Books shows this expression is used to refer to numerous things (no primary topic), and a small minority of times to this obscure esoteric doctrine. I recommend deletion. Veverve (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Emotional Centre
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Emotional Centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

A search on Google Scholar and on Google Books shows this expression is used to refer to numerous things (no primary topic), and a small minority of times to refer to this obscure esoteric doctrine. I recommend deletion. Veverve (talk) 19:59, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment: Bundled nominations with identical rationale and target article. CycloneYoris talk!</b> 23:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I had made four different entries, because I had a different rationale and Google Scholar and Google Books links for each entry. Veverve (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * so, could you restore my four separate RfDs you merged into one? Veverve (talk) 18:04, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I've now restored these four separate RfDs. But the rationale is clearly identical in each individual nomination, so I'd appreciate if next time you could at least indicate which nominations are meant to be separate. <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.4em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 21:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:31, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Cow nut
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . As unlikely term and no specific target.  Jay (talk) 04:16, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Cow nut → Frozen bovine semen (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Unlikely search term, delete unless a justification can be provided. signed,Rosguill talk 19:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Veverve (talk) 20:14, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak retarget to Rocky Mountain oysters, where Bull testicles targets, but I would okay with deletion. Mdewman6 (talk) 22:04, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Also a somewhat plausible search term for Nut (goddess), so perhaps deletion is preferable. Mdewman6 (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I lean delete as ambiguous and an unlikely search term for any topic. Second choice: retarget to Rocky Mountain oysters, which is a more plausible topic for this phrase than the current target. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:36, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. Enwiki has nothing about "cow nut". Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Sexual Centre
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:56, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Sexual Centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

A search on Google Scholar and on Google Books shows this expression is used to refer to numerous things (no primary topic), but not this obscure esoteric doctrine. This expression can also allude to sexual health clinics. I recommend deletion. Veverve (talk) 19:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Jin Zhengen
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 25%23Jin Zhengen

Subcenter
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:56, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Subcenter → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Subcentre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Subcentres → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Subcenters → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub centres → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub centers → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub center → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub-centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub-centres → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub-centers → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Sub-center → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

A quick search on Google Scholar and Google Books shows those terms are used in numerous contexts as common words (no primary topic), and never in reference to this specific, obscure doctrine. I recommend deletion, or - my least preferred option - soft redirecting to "subcenter" on Wiktionary. Veverve (talk) 19:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Three centres/Five centres
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 30%23Three centres/Five centres

Sephiroth
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was disambiguate  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:51, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Sephiroth → Sefirot (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I'm proposing to convert this redirect to a WP:TWODABS page listing the redirect's current target, Sefirot, and Sephiroth (Final Fantasy). I did not WP:BOLD-ly convert the redirect to a disambiguation page due to the previous controversy claiming that the term "Sephiroth" primarily refers to the subject at Sefirot. (See Talk:Sefirot and Talk:Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) for the move discussions.) However, the |Sephiroth|Sephiroth_(Final_Fantasy) page view comparison of the two aforementioned articles and the nominated redirect tells a different story; the average amount of page views over the past 90 days for the nominated redirect is almost 0, whereas the two articles are in the mid-to-high hundreds. What this potentially means is that it is unclear which article readers are attempting to locate when searching "Sephiroth" due to that term having significantly less views than either one of the articles. (In fact, it seems that the history of Sephiroth shows that Sephiroth was a disambiguation page in the past which was redirect as a result of Talk:Sephiroth (Final Fantasy)/Archive 2.) Steel1943  (talk) 18:30, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support Sefirot gets 69,081 views in the past 90 days, while Sephiroth_(Final_Fantasy) only gets 40,151 in the same time period. Also educational topics beat popular culture.  At the top of the Sefirot article is a link to the fictional character if anyone got confused.  And this page currently has only 2,486 in the past 90 days, so most aren't coming here to look for those two things anyway.   D r e a m Focus  20:52, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It sounds like you meant to say Oppose then? <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  22:58, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "...most aren't coming here to look for those two things anyway..." reads like a "support" to me. If most don't go use the term "Sephiroth" expecting to find a specific subject, then a disambiguation page should be appropriate. (Well, either that, or delete this redirect, but that wouldn't help anyone since there are at least two subjects on Wikipedia that can be referred to by this precise spelling.) Steel1943  (talk) 23:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. While Sefirot is indeed the primary topic for the general term, bear in mind that we are talking about one of many transliterated forms of the Hebrew ספירות. Sefiroth, Sfirot, Sphirot, Sphiroth, S'firot, S'phirot are only a few others that come to mind. We can also add The Sefirot, Ten Sefirot and The Ten Sefirot to the mix. Therefore, a dab can and should be created out of the only iteration that clearly could point to two distinct articles. If there is another character known as Sephirot, then I would propose dabbing over the Sephirot redirect as well. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  22:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Roma Volley
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 30%23Roma Volley

School and university
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was speedy delete  . Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 19:58, 30 January 2022 (UTC)


 * School and university → List of rowing blades – School and university (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not the most logical target for this term. "School" seems like a much more likely redirect target. Fram (talk) 14:52, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment makes sense. --evrik (talk) 16:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget to School, noting that universities are a type of school. Would be okay with deletion; certainly don't keep where it currently is. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 17:43, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per inaccurate current target and WP:XY; School and University are separate articles and every school is not a university (thus I oppose retargeting to School.) Steel1943  (talk) 18:09, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: no proper retarget. Veverve (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete This is not something anyone would search for when looking for its current target.  D r e a m Focus  20:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:XY. Mdewman6 (talk) 20:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and WP:XY. Chompy Ace 02:42, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:XY. Hard to see any target that would be useful to a reader searching for this phrase. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:39, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. I wondered about targetting a broad list of lists of educational institutions type article, but I can't find anything that would make an appropriate target. Thryduulf (talk) 12:31, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

West Elm Caleb
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . I'm taking no further action vis-a-vis the active protection of the page, which means that it is effectively salted for non-ECP editors as of this close. signed,Rosguill talk 21:50, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * West Elm Caleb → Online shaming (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This redirect of TikTok term that refers to a real person who is currently being internet shamed seems unnecessary to me. The person isn't even mentioned at the target article, and probably shouldn't be. Just redirecting to online shaming an identifiable person feels like a BLP problem to me. valereee (talk) 14:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete and salt Hopefully it is unanimous that this will never be an article. The current target is useless to someone looking for actual info on this person, as they are not mentioned at all.  I cannot think of any truly useful target, and per Valereee above, redirecting to online shaming also feels like something of a BLP problem itself. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:23, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete and salt. I stand by the edit summary with which I created the page ("i hope against hope, in my deepest heart, that this page remains a redirect until the heat death of the universe -- if it is expanded into a stub the sixth seal will be broken, and there will be a great earthquake, and the sun will become black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon will become as blood"). Perhaps in some years this will come to be seen as having been a notable media event, but at present it seems to be a disgusting shitshow. jp×g 19:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete for sure as a WP:BLP violation, but I'm not so sure on salting. Then again, I know or care about anything on TikTok, so I probably won't have enough background information to make a firm response on that. OcelotCreeper2 (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * and on salting, per valereee and OcelotCreeper2, respectively. Firefangledfeathers 13:23, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * FFF, FWIW (didja see what I did there?), I'd salt. valereee (talk) 18:23, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Front Toward Enemy
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to M18 Claymore mine. signed,Rosguill talk 21:46, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Front Toward Enemy → The Punisher (season 1) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * FRONT TOWARD ENEMY → M18 Claymore mine (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Front toward enemy → M18 Claymore mine (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I've created Front toward enemy and FRONT TOWARD ENEMY as r from quotations to M18 Claymore mine, a device on which this inscription famously appears. As both the originator of the phrase and the subject of the lion's share of Google search results, I think it's the clear primary topic, and it's where I expected to be taken when I searched for "Front toward enemy" before creating these two redirects. However, the existing Front Toward Enemy points to an episode list entry in The Punisher (season 1). Since the term appears on all caps on the mines, and could reasonably be rendered in title case just as well as sentence case, I think WP:DIFFCAPS does not apply here, and that we should synchronize all three at M18 Claymore mine, with hatnote to the Punisher list entry. I am nominating the two redirects I created as well, in case anyone wants to argue that they instead should be retargeted. -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 09:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Sure, no problem. Make sure to delete the episode redirect and instead move it to Front Toward Enemy (The Punisher). Gonnym (talk) 10:49, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with Gonnym, no issue as long as the redirect is moved to the correct disambig. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Move Front Toward Enemy to Front Toward Enemy (The Punisher) per Gonnym since there will be people looking for possible information about the episode. I'd also like to thank Tamzin for mentioning the mine stating the phrase in all caps. OcelotCreeper2 (talk) 17:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Per nom: these are reasonable actions. I don't think redirects should be moved: just create the other one. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Signature Style
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . (non-admin closure)  <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.4em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 10:44, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Signature Style → Style (visual arts) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I have just created an uncapitalised version of this redirect, which targets the section in the article which refers specifically to this term. I cannot see a reason to keep the capitalised version, as it's not a proper noun. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 08:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. Redirects are cheap, and a title-case search term doesn't hurt anyone (assuming it's unambiguous) and may be useful to some percentage of our readers. While Special:Search will correct miscapitalizations if a differently-capitalized redirect exists, there are other ways of interacting with Wikipedia that do not offer that accommodation—I know some people who browse exclusively via the URL bar—and some people don't realize that we use sentence case rather than title case. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 09:31, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I subsequently also found Signature Styles, a brand name. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 10:21, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep Vast numbers of our redirects are to catch mispellings by searchers, accidental or not. Given how we know that capitalization is the subject of different views among editors, never mind readers, we should keep this. There might be case for a disam page though. Johnbod (talk) 17:14, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There's already a hatnote to Signature Styles at the target, and I think that's sufficient. Unlike with a common noun like  → apple, I don't think it's too likely that someone will think that Signature Styles, a brand name, is actually Signature Style. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 01:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'm not too fussed about it, just thought it was redundant. It was me who added that hatnote to Signature Styles target. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 07:12, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep per Tamzin. Thryduulf (talk) 12:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Slovakia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2013
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was no consensus  . Editors remain divided on whether these redirects are useful to readers. signed,Rosguill talk 21:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Slovakia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2013 → Eurovision Song Contest 2013 (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Turkey in the Eurovision Song Contest 2013 → Eurovision Song Contest 2013 (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest 2013 → Eurovision Song Contest 2013 (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest 2009 → San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest 2014 → Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest 2014 → Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest 2015 → Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest 2015 → Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Turkey in the Eurovision Song Contest 2016 → Turkey in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest 2019 → Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest 2020 → Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Hungary in the Eurovision Song Contest 2020 → A Dal 2020 (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 → Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Hungary in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 → Hungary in the Eurovision Song Contest (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

These articles were preemptively created in mid-2012 when some thought that these countries may compete in the 2013 edition of the contest. This never materialized, however, and the articles were then redirected to the main contest page to a section that just says they didn't compete. It is highly unlikely that these redirects receive any use. Grk1011 (talk) 15:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep all. Given that these countries all competed in the previous year it is entirely plausible for someone to search on these terms (and the stats show that, contrary to your guesses, the first two are well used with ~270 and ~815 hits this year; third is still used but not to the same extent). Given that there is sourced content in the target article about their lack of participation the targets are appropriate, not misleading and will educate people who use the redirects. Deletion will not help anybody. Thryduulf (talk) 16:02, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to bet that it's because there is an infobox in use that presented the redirects as the next year and people blindly clicked on them. That is how we identified this problem. When a redirect for a non-participation year did not exist, the infobox correctly ended the succession. Working on fixing the infobox coding as a separate issue. Grk1011 (talk) 16:55, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * So? Infoboxes are far from the only method people use to find Wikipedia articles. This doesn't change my opinion at all. Thryduulf (talk) 12:41, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That may be the case but I also don't think having these redirects in place serves any real purpose. As Grk1011 mentioned below we don't have redirects in place for every single country that has taken part for every single year, even if there was no intention to ever take part in that year's event, so why continue to support these specific redirects? The same purpose you describe can be achieved without redirects as well: a user typing in the search bar for a specific country in a specific year and finding no result may be curious to find out why, prompting them to search for the country or the year in question to find out more, whereas keeping the redirects could be seen as an invitation to expand and create a new article when no such article is required or indeed desired given these countries did not take part. In addition I don't believe the purpose you ascribe to keeping these redirects is covered under WP:POFR, unless you can tell me otherwise? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Firstly redlinks are also invitations to start articles, indeed per WP:REDLINK even more so than redirects. Secondly the internal search engine is far from the only method people use to find Wikipedia content. I'm not arguing for redirects for every country for every year, I agree most would not be warranted, but only for the year after the last year of participation, especially when it is/was expected that the country would be participating again, as that is a very likely search term for those looking through the history of a country in the contest. Thryduulf (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't particularly understand your reasoning for keeping a redirect for a country for the year after they last participated, and I don't understand how there is any value to keeping these, especially when these countries could return eventually. Would at that point you recommend we delete these redirects specifically? I'm also not particularly sure how we can qualify a country being expected to participate, as no country is obligated to take part in a given year and many countries have and do regularly miss editions. Following fixes to infoboxes the original 3 redirects now have very few links in place where a user could access it beyond typing in the search bar (all 3 are now only linked to the RfD pages and our WikiProject Eurovision talk page), so the chances of a user stumbling upon them is now remote. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * One further comment: we do have several redirects in place for countries that didn't take part in a given year's contest, however these are specifically for those countries that were planning on enter that year's contest but eventually withdrew or were disqualified. None of the redirects in this discussion fall within this category as all of these instances pertain to countries that did not appear on any confirmed list of competing countries ahead of the event, and therefore had no intention of ever participating. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In that case, shouldn't they then at least be retargeted to Slovakia in the Eurovision Song Contest (and equivalent articles for the other countries), rather than Eurovision Song Contest 2013? &horbar;Jochem van Hees (talk) 15:50, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In those instances where redirects are in place for what was a planned participation that didn't occur, yes the redirects are to the country articles rather than the year articles. The point I was trying to raise though is that none of these articles in question fall into that category, as these instances are all occurrences where the countries in question for that year had no known intention in participating in the contest at all, and therefore there is little reason to continue to host these redirects from a consistency perspective. There are several cases where countries did not participate in certain years, and we do not have redirects for those cases since there is very little reason to create them; e.g. Poland competed in 2011 and 2014, but not 2012 or 2013, and we do not have redirects for those years. I think this should be seen as quite a simple tidy up of redundant articles which were created at a time where all the facts were not known. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I was replying to Thryduulf's comment, not yours, because they claimed the people using the redirect are looking through the history of a country in the contest, and the article Eurovision Song Contest 2013 doesn't provide any information about that. &horbar;Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:50, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 13:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per the reasons above on limited potential for use, pre-emptive nature of creation, and limited edit history. I did a little digging myself and found a number of other similar redirects for what turned out to be unmaterialised participations in later contests which I believe should also be up for discussion. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest 2009
 * Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest 2014
 * Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest 2014
 * Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest 2015
 * Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest 2015
 * Turkey in the Eurovision Song Contest 2016
 * Bulgaria in the Eurovision Song Contest 2019
 * Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest 2020
 * Hungary in the Eurovision Song Contest 2020
 * Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021
 * Hungary in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021
 * I would support the addition of the above into consideration. These are redirects for things that didn't happen. You could arguably create a page for any year and make it a redirect with that way of thinking. Grk1011 (talk) 16:28, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I at least think they should not be deleted unless they get actually added to this RfD, so that the redirects are tagged and the authors notified. &horbar;Jochem van Hees (talk) 15:52, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion, very valid point! I have added those additional articles to this section, added the templates to the pages in question, and have notified all of the original creators. Some appear to me missing or blocked, but better to at least try! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:35, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know... I think they should have been removed, because these countries were never included in the final list (ex. Bulgaria for 2019 or Turkey for 2016). 009988aaabbbccc (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2022 (CEST)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Aervanath (talk) 17:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all; per above discussion, I don't think these redirects aid the reader. &horbar;Jochem van Hees (talk) 15:47, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment This is a type of thing that can happen with a lot of series, not just annual events. I lean towards keeping, in which case I suggest (and perhaps this suggestion might persuade some deleters to reconsider) adding Redirect from gap in series to them, with suitable documentation on that template. jnestorius(talk) 15:36, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * While I think this suggestion might work in some cases, I'm not sure this fits here, given that countries are under no obligation to participate in the contest any many countries do pause participation for different reasons. Also I think if we were to add this template to these articles, would the implication then not be to create redundant redirects for other gaps in a country's participation when there is no need? Finally, there doesn't appear to be a redirect cat under that name, or any that deal with gaps in a series. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  07:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep or retarget so they point to that year's Eurovision Song Contest article, where there is more detailed information about each country's non-participation in the event (such as at Eurovision Song Contest 2013). I also suggest refining or anchoring to that section or bullet point for easy access to that information. Redirects guide searchers to relevant information about the term searched for, and these redirects are helpful because we have information on why a given country did not participate in a given event. I disagree that having a redirect implies that a country did partipate, and the target would dispell any such assumption. Of course, unlinking from infoboxes and/or navboxes would go a long way to prevent that assumption from happening. -- Tavix ( talk ) 03:29, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * That's the standard practice for countries that have made non-trivial statements about participation or have indepth reasons relevant to a specific year. This nomination filtered through redirects to find the handful that were just preemptively created with an assumption that the country would take part. Take Armenia 2021 upon creation, which was all just shared general text from other articles. For countries that initially stated that were going to partake and then did not, the pages remain as redirects. Those articles are not included in this nomination. This nomination seeks to delete the articles created in the "new year, gotta create a bunch of new articles to be first" fashion, which is non-encyclopedic and WP:CRYSTAL. Grk1011 (talk) 14:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think the manner of creation of these redirects are important. The key is that they are helpful now because they point to relevant information. For what it's worth, I am well aware of non-encylopedic crystal ball Eurovision redirects. -- Tavix ( talk ) 15:18, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree with that assessment because most of this crop was selected for deletion because they don't have any information other than "did not submit an application" or a one sentence press release prompted by a fansite inquiry. This is especially concerning because there is typically no expectation that they will participate to begin with. If it makes sense to instead trim this list down to be more targeted, then I'd be in support of that. It is not helpful to have redirects for several country in year articles that just go to a section in every contest that says that they did not partake. Grk1011 (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Why is that not helpful? If someone is looking for information about $country in $year then this will tell them the information they are looking for. If they aren't looking for that then they wont be using these redirects and so will not be harmed by them. That countries expend the effort to put out press releases about this sort of thing should give you an indication that it's not just one or two people who are interested. Thryduulf (talk) 21:11, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact however is that for many of the redirects listed in this RfD people in general aren't looking for this information. In 2021 several of the redirects received fewer than 30 views in the entire year (see     ). I could also support trimming down the list to be more focussed if there are any specific cases in the above where there is a general feeling these should remain, however looking at some of the ESC articles where the information on non-participation is stored, it seems to me like a bit of a non-story in many cases, e.g. "[country] submitted an initial application, but then decided against participating", which isn't notable as any broadcaster in the EBU could submit an application and then withdraw. Meanwhile for cases where a country's non-participation was more prolific news, e.g. Turkey in 2013 or Hungary in 2020, I still personally do not see the value in keeping these redirects since there did not seem to be any intention on the broadcaster's part to compete in the contest, which makes having a redirect misleading. Why would we have an article for any other country, e.g. Monaco or Vatican City, for that year's contest when broadcasters in those countries have every right to compete but had zero intention of doing so. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:37, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Intellectual centre
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 06:20, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Intellectual centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Intellectual Centre → Centers (Fourth Way) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

"Intellectual centre" is mostly used to designate a place where intellectuals gather, e.g. "UNCTAD, as an intellectual centre for development, should continue to generate ideas and serve as a forum for debate on trade for development", "Since then, the city of Julius Caesar has constantly expanded to become a leading cultural, artistic and intellectual centre" , "I want to end on this point as the CHEAr is also a an intellectual centre for the men and women concerned with defence equipment". The article "Intellectual center" was deleted after an AfD in 2005. I think therefore the redirect should either be deleted, or - my least prefere option - DABified with School of thought, Centers (Fourth Way), and Intellectual. Veverve (talk) 06:01, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. The kind of broad-concept term that is suited neither to a BCA nor a DAB. I could live with a DAB along the lines of what Veverve describes, but don't think it would serve much benefit. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 06:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:35, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Aftonomi Monastiki Politia Agiou Orous
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was Delete transliterated title, keep the rest  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:44, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Aftonomi Monastiki Politia Agiou Orous → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Athonite monastic state → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Athonian Republic → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Athonite Republic → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Athonite State → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Autonomous Monastic State of Ayion Oros → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Autonomous Monastic State of Mount Athos → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Monastic Republic of Mount Athos → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Monastic State of Mount Athos → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Republic of Athos → Monastic community of Mount Athos (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Calling this community a "state" or "republic" is the result of 10 years of POV-pushing, see the first message of Fut.Perf. at Talk:Monastic community of Mount Athos. The community of monks at Mount Athos are never called as such, be it informally or formally, nor is it the name of the specific Greek administration of the Mount Athos region (see the Article 105 of the constitution of Greece). Therefore, those redirects should be all deleted. Veverve (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)


 *  Delete  per nom. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 21:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Edit: I understand that these articles do not concern anyone but considering that they have been subject to a decades-old disagreement over how to call that community which resides in Mount Athos I would appreciate seeing more opinions here by uninvolved editors on the matter (whether to delete them or not) as to form a more solid consensus (hopefully in favor of deleting them). This should help make sure that any future attempts in re-creating them will be discouraged. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 02:46, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Upd: withdrew my vote. See discussion below. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 15:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom and per SilentResident. We should not be enshrining POV in redirects. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:52, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:RNEUTRAL. Redirects from non-neutral terms that are actually used are not a problem. Thryduulf (talk) 19:51, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep all except the first. Wehther or not these are "correct" or "official" names is irrelevant (it is the job of the article to educate readers about these). What matters is whether they are plausible search terms, and based on google searches, there are enough uses of each of these that someone might encounter them and search for the term on Wikipedia. The exception is the transliteration of Greek - this is not used in English-language contexts without transation into another term and explanatory context. Thryduulf (talk) 14:58, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * it must be noted that, as Future Perfect at Sunrise noted in the message I hyperlinked in my nomination, this name is possibly a case of WP:CITOGENESIS. Veverve (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Regardless of how the names/descriptions originated, they are now used outside the project and so are search terms someone may come across and look up here. Thryduulf (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I find myself in agreement with Thryduulf here. These redirects all seem to be completely plausible as search terms for this monastic community that has had many privileges and rights of autonomy granted under multiple empires and states since at least the 9th century. Basically the first source I found on a Google search indicates that as of the 1920s, it was "colloquially referred to simply a[s] 'Mount Athos', or 'autonomous monastic state of Mount Athos', or as the 'Athonian republic'". All of these redirects (except the Greek transliteration) seem to all be completely reasonable variations of those terms, no matter how much ideological baggage they might have. If there are objective POV problems with these names, then having a section on "naming controversy" might be a plausible redirect, but only if the controversial name is specifically used primarilyy in modern sources to talk about the naming controversy. But just saying that a plausible redirect has a POV name does not even come close to being WP:UNDUE. Keep all except the Greek transliteration. VanIsaac, MPLLcont<sub style="margin-left:-3.5ex"> WpWS 01:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thing is, WP:RNEUTRAL states that: "The exceptions to this rule would be redirects that are not established terms and are unlikely to be useful, and therefore may be nominated for deletion" and it is exactly the case here: these redirects are not really established terms, owning to the lack of actual documents and verification that such terms are indeed in use. That isn't surprising, considering that Mount Athos is a secluded monastic region, where access to its documents (for wp:verification) is difficult. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 02:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * But it absolutely fails the "unlikely to be useful" part of that multi-part exception, and doesn't even seem to meet the "established terms" part. Note that it does not say "official terms", just "established". These terms are being used in modern sources, as a simple Google search for them will show. More to the point, that very guideline at RNEUTRAL says, not as an exception, but as the introduction to the guideline that "perceived lack of neutrality in redirect names is not a sufficient reason for their deletion" and "non-neutral but verifiable redirects should point to neutrally titled articles about the subject of the term", which is exactly what the status quo is. VanIsaac, MPLLcont<sub style="margin-left:-3.5ex"> WpWS 05:34, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @SilentResident As noted, these are "established terms" with use since the 1920s in at least some cases and per my comments above they are useful search terms. It's worth reiterating that the terms do not need to be any of official, correct or neutral, they just need to be useful to readers. Thryduulf (talk) 11:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I see your points. In that case, I am striking my delete vote and rather leave this for the others to decide. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 15:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Just an FYI, but there is some extracurriculars going on with this XfD. There's nothing about the form of the invitation itself, but I'm concerned about why the intiator is trying to bring more people in after we seem to have an emerging consensus against the deletion. FPaS or Veverve, please let us know if there's a particular reason why they should be singled out for participation in this discussion in some way. VanIsaac, MPLLcont<sub style="margin-left:-3.5ex"> WpWS 04:14, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: It looks like the initial notice was from earlier in the XfD, and the latest one was a reminder. Still interested in what's going on here. VanIsaac, MPLLcont<sub style="margin-left:-3.5ex"> WpWS 05:09, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , as I see it, Veverve's message to FPaS wasn't exactly an invitation: FPaS started this whole discussion in the first place. Original discussion can be found here: . Since it was that particular editor who raised the whole case before Veverve starting the RfD request, I assume there is nothing wrong about giving FPAS a kind reminder so that they can leave a comment if they wish. Considering how much this case has bothered FPAS (for years!) I guess, this is the last chance for that editor to comment in the discussion before it concludes and the case is closed for good. Personally I see nothing wrong with Veverve's reminder to FPAS.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 15:38, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Glad to find out that there's a history behind it. I just saw the reminder pop up in my watchlist and thought it was a bit odd that a random admin would get an invite, but turns out they aren't random at all. VanIsaac, MPLLcont<sub style="margin-left:-3.5ex"> WpWS 19:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 05:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep all except the Greek transliteration. I had decided to give some more time to the "delete" side (of which I was part, initially) so that they develop their arguments before I re-evaluate my vote based on the arguments and strongpoints of each side, but seems like that the "keep" side has made the most reasonable arguments of the two, thus far, which I find to be policy-compliant. For this reason, I am changing my vote from Delete to Keep all except the Greek transliteration.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 15:48, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

2022 French Open
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . signed,Rosguill talk 21:42, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * 2022 French Open → French Open (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

2022 not mentioned in the article, and no other suitable target as far as I know. Beefaloe (formerly SpursySituation) (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 05:29, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep for now. I agree it was created maybe a bit too early, but this redirect will still be used (and will likely be converted into an article) when this year's French Open begins in late May. Another option would be to delete and give way for article creation, but I honestly don't think that's needed. <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.4em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 01:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep with a view to converting to an article in the weeks prior to the start of the tournament in May. 2022 Wimbledon Championships currently redirects to The Championships, Wimbledon, yet 2021 Wimbledon Championships now has an article, to give an example. Bonoahx (talk) 12:00, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:CRYSTALBALL. Veverve (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep significant news about the '22 French Open has already arrived, with the restriction of needing to be fully vaxxed. So, this is eligible to be converted into an article already, and the year is 2022, not 2021 -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 02:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete or create article per WP:RFD number 10. If there is enough sourcing for an article, then all it does is provide a misleading bluelink which may hinder article creation. If there is not enough sourcing for an article, then the current target contains virtually no information about the 2022 tournament and so is unhelpful to someone searching this. A7V2 (talk) 03:26, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep plenty of newsworthy information. No reason to delete and re-create in a few months; redirect is fine for now. Buffs (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep, pointless to delete. Lots of incoming links; having the redirect in place prevents premature article creation from red links. (This is a subject where the article will be created anyway, no need to encourage it by redlinking). —Kusma (talk) 12:35, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Be Safe
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Lil Xan. Formally no consensus where the status quo ante was a redirect to Lil Xan. Closing as retarget in order to make use of XFDcloser. signed,Rosguill talk 19:50, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Be Safe → Ford Motor Company (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This appears to have originally been an article about a cancelled album by Lil Xan, before being made a redirect to Lil Xan (where there is some mention of an album by this name being cancelled). It was then changed to target Ford Motor Company for reasons I can't figure out. While it would seem that simply retargeting the rapper would work, I feel that this is far too ambiguous (eg with Safety) and should be deleted. A7V2 (talk) 00:22, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. It is too vague and will lead to some strange redirects. Veverve (talk) 14:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Restore original target. Retarget appears to have been outright vandalism; editor was blocked shortly thereafter. As a redirect to Lil Xan it seems plausible, and I don't see any other encyclopedic topics referred to by this phrase with this capitalization. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 05:10, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a good point that you make about the capitalisation of this redirect. The issue I have though is that currently, be safe is a redlink, and searching this in the seachbar takes you to this redirect. But then do we really want to create Be safe (presumably targeting Safety?) just to avoid this when it is such a generic phrase? Or is this not really a problem? A7V2 (talk) 13:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.4em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 01:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Restore original target. It is discussed in the article and linking to Ford Motor Company has no rational. It was changed to Ford Motor Company by a user who was blocked for unsourced changes to car logos. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 15:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 05:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per A7V2. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 22:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Restore original target per above. Buffs (talk) 02:35, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Why Wikipedia Sucks
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was no consensus  . Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 06:22, 31 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Why Wikipedia Sucks → Criticism of Wikipedia (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This is in the same vein as Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 3. Yes, Wikipedia has been criticized, but that does not necessarily mean that Wikipedia sucks. You would have to draw your own conclusions on that one. -- Tavix ( talk ) 18:33, 16 January 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.4em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 03:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Obviously POV redirect. Crass and doesn't seem particularly necessary. We wouldn't allow it for a mainspace page on "criticism" of any other entity.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 14:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete This is not necessarily as cut and dry as Wikipedia is the worst, but I do think this redirect is not particularly useful especially because it's not one someone would naturally go to via a link, it would only come through via search. With that noted, there is a better redirect for essentially the topic and wording which is Why Wikipedia Is Not So Great. <b style="color: #ea5a5a;">Tartar</b>Torte 16:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think this is a more plausible search term than "Wikipedia is the worst". Redirects do not have to use neutral language per WP:RNEUTRAL, though admittedly this redirect doesn't fall into any of the common cases described at that page. It doesn't get a lot of pageviews, but it gets some and redirects are cheap. Also, this redirect is pretty old (created in 2006), which increases the chance that deleting it will break incoming links from other sites. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 18:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep per arguments made at the previous discussion. I think this is a highly plausible search term, and someone searching this will find more or less what they are looking for. Neutrality is certainly not required for redirects. A7V2 (talk) 03:31, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. In contrast to Wikipedia is the worst, this phrase is actually used in multiple independent constructive criticisms of Wikipedia, and someone using the search term is clearly looking for information rather than asserting something. Together this means that this is a plausible search term for the target. Thryduulf (talk) 14:48, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think the article isn't really critizing Wikipedia rather its a redirect to similar subjects. HelpingWorld (talk) 19:35, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - Valid, plausible, and usable search term. Redirects don't have to be polite, neutral, or even "correct" (we can have redirects for typos, we can have redirects for misspellings)! They just have to be useful and unambiguous.  Would someone type this in to the search bar?  Heck, would they type it into GOOGLE?  Yes they would?  Then it should be a redirect.  Fieari (talk) 00:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Strong delete per my comment at the RfD that Tavix linked. There is no particular affinity for this order of words in contrast to any other "subject is bad"-type redirect. Of the arguments being made so far, some rightly establish that redirects do not have to be neutral, but, just like NOTCENSORED is not a carte blanche to have any offensive content we want, RNEUTRAL is not a carte blanche to have any non-neutral redirect. The question is whether this is a plausible search term, and several users are making the conclusory statement that it is. "Why Wikipedia Sucks" gets 73 GHits if you skip past the first-page guesstimate number. I don't see a single work titled "Why Wikipedia sucks". I see one Reddit thread titled that, and one thread on another forum starting that way, and then all other mentions appear to be mid-sentence. Given how much criticism there is of Wikipedia (see: any conversation among Wikipedians), it's remarkable how little this term is used, not how much. So just take my argument from the last RfD and change it to "Why Facebook is Really Bad, Why America Is No Good, Why Marriage Is So Dumb". Exact same thing. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 02:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Weak keep so far. As mentioned, the redirect is obviously POV, but looking through WP:RNEUTRAL, whether or not I'd !vote keep or delete depends on if there the redirect is verifiable in some way. Thryduulf mentioned the phrase being used in "multiple independent constructive criticisms of Wikipedia" so I trust that he has some material to support his !vote. OcelotCreeper2 (talk) 17:34, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Page views shows 110 views in the past 90 days, half of those since it was nominated for deletion though. No one is searching for this title.   D r e a m Focus  19:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Uncommon usage is not no usage. There is no requirement that redirects need to have consistent or high usage to remain, and I really don't like seeing the argument used in a number of these RfDs. Literally zero usage ever aside from the day it was created might be one thing, low usage, even very low usage, is quite another.  Low usage is still usage. Fieari (talk) 07:01, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Ottoman Turkestan
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 19:55, 30 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Ottoman Turkestan → Ottoman (region) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not mentioned at the target, no relevant results on Google Scholar. As far as this being a plausible alternative term, the region of Turkestan does not appear to be included in the map describing the Ottoman region at the target. Delete unless a justification can be provided. signed,Rosguill talk 17:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.4em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 03:11, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Basmachi movement. The nom is correct that Ottoman Turkestan is nominally a contradiction in terms, since the Ottomans never controlled this territory. But it is plausible that it might refer to Ottoman policy towards this region. If that is the case, then the WWI uprising of Turkish/Ottoman nationalists in Turkestan (Enver Pasha was a ring-leader) would be a plausible target. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  20:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment this redirect was created when the stub it was created for was renamed Ottoman (region). That stub article as it stands now is a complete mess. It purports to discuss the region of Turkestan, which has little or nothing to do with the Ottomans, and the article title seems to be a reference to the Ottoman Empire. Ottoman is about as much a "region" as is Roman (region). Based upon one of only two offline references, the intention of the article creator blocked user might have been towards a neo-Ottoman revival of some sort with designs on Turkestan. In any case, the disjointed axis between the incoherent title, content and map indicate that it seems to be a candidate for Afd, regardless of what happens here. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  20:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: no proper retarget. Veverve (talk) 04:51, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

George Wallace (New Zealand)
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to George Wallace (disambiguation). Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 19:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)


 * <span id="George Wallace (New Zealand)">George Wallace (New Zealand) → Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

The target has an unsourced mention of George Mackenzie, but no George Wallace. Delete unless they are the same person. Jay (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No idea if they are the same, but there is a George Wallace (New Zealand cricketer) and possibly also a George Wallace Bollinger about who this might refer to. While they are both better candidates than the current target, I would go with the cricketer. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  14:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Retarget to George Wallace (New Zealand cricketer). <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  15:07, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.4em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 03:11, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see here; it may still be unsatisfactory.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Good catch, but is he notable? If so, where are the references? A quick search only turned up this mirror. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim  <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  22:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * REtarget to George Wallace (disambiguation); if the church Wallace can be sourced and restored to the article, it can appear as an entry on the dab page -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:41, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If sources exist, please find them. Otherwise, targeting the dab will only add to the confusion. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  20:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Bar president
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 31%23Bar president

Communist holocaust
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 4%23Communist holocaust

DC Washington
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  .  Jay (talk) 11:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)


 * DC Washington → Washington, D.C. (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Implausible search term, and virtually all Google results for this term are for a singer of that name. I suggest deleting this redirect, and if people feel the singer is notable, they can create the article for him. Smartyllama (talk) 01:45, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * D.C. Washington → Washington, D.C. (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I am also nominating the following D.C. Washington redirect for the same reason:Smartyllama (talk) 01:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 05:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943  (talk) 01:21, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think there's room to mention the singer in a hypothetical "Sports culture" section of Sports in Washington, D.C., but I don't think that's so obvious an omission that WP:REDLINK would apply here. In which case there's the question of whether these redirects are useful at their current target, and I think... probably, yeah. They get pretty healthy pageviews, especially the period-free one. It seems plausible to me that there's people in the world, especially outside the U.S., who know that "D.C." and "Washington" refer to the same city but don't understand how they fit together, and guess the order wrong. Meanwhile there's nothing currently in the encyclopedia that these terms could be confused with. See also, , and . So keep for now under WP:R. If content is added somewhere about the singer, retarget there and add a hatnote to the city. In conclusion, Go Nats! --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 08:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep Since I checked the pageviews before reading Tamzin's comment, the period free one got 187 pageviews in the 365 days before the nomination, while the period one got what seemed like 47 (I think I set the dates for this one as 1/24/21-1/24/22). And like Tamzin said, there's nothing on the encyclopedia that I'm aware of that could be confused with this at the moment. OcelotCreeper2 (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep since they appear to be useful. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:43, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.