Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 11

March 11
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on March 11, 2022.

Wikipedia:PCM
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Requested moves. Liz Read! Talk! 00:50, 19 March 2022 (UTC)


 * PCM → Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

I was astonished to find this targets WikiProject Medicine, as there is no obvious indication what this initialism means. Very few page views, no incoming mainspace links. Unless there is a justification, I think this would be better as a shortcut to Requested_moves as an initialism for "potentially controversial moves" Mdewman6 (talk) 20:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, this is from WikiProject:Preclinical Medicine, which was merged with WikiProject:Clinical Medicince to form WikiProject Medicine. Since there is no preclinical section that persists to target this to and "preclinical" is barely mentioned at target, I still feel this might be of more use elsewhere. Mdewman6 (talk) 20:49, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * agree with Mdewman6--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * And, WP:CM targets (appropriately) WP:WikiProject Classical Music, so it's not like there is precedent to preserve these shortcuts for defunct WikiProjects that were folded into a more encompassing WikiProject. Mdewman6 (talk) 20:53, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Empyrean (Warhammer)
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Liz Read! Talk! 23:22, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Empyrean (Warhammer) → Hyperspace (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Immaterium → Hyperspace (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Immaterium (Warhammer 40,000) → Hyperspace (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

The section to which this redirect points no longer exists. It was presumably removed as fancruft some time ago. "Warhammer" or "Empyrean" is not mentioned in the target page.  Sandstein  19:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Spelunking in the history tells me I just made this because of MOS:DABREDIR in . Immaterium and Immaterium (Warhammer 40,000) have the same issue. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 20:18, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I also agree Immaterium and Immaterium (Warhammer 40,000) should be deleted for the same reasons. Veverve (talk) 14:57, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added these redirects to the nomination.  Sandstein   18:55, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all per nom (just so that it is clear). Veverve (talk) 09:40, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Joseph Ben Mattias
 Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was Keep all and refined Mattatyahu ben Yosef  . (non-admin closure)  CycloneYoris talk! 05:35, 23 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Joseph Ben Mattias → Josephus (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Joseph Ben Matthias → Josephus (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Mattatyahu ben Yosef → Josephus (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Josephus bar Mathias → Josephus (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Joseph ben Matityahu → Josephus (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Unlikely combinations of English, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic, with mispellings, sometimes all in the same redirect. Avilich (talk) 15:11, 4 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep because it honestly seems like a reasonable mistake people would make. Quick Quokka  [⁠talk • contribs] 22:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * And the other thousands of possible combinations, no doubt. No reason to favor these specifically. Avilich (talk) 00:30, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Need consensus for Mattatyahu ben Yosef. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 16:10, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep all but Mattatyahu ben Yosef (delete that one) because, as much of a mishmash as they are, Google annoyingly reveals them to be in actual use in sources that identify one or another of them as his "real" name. Largoplazo (talk) 09:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak refine Mattatyahu ben Yosef to § Biography, as that's a valid (if obscure) rendering of Josephus' father's name. Keep the rest per above. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 10:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep the first two as reasonable guesses (not sure about the capitalization of "Ben" being likely, but the spellings are); not sure about the others being likely search targets—they don't look very plausible to me, at least for English speakers (and this is English Wikipedia—someone looking for a more literal transliteration is likely to reach the article from a different language Wiki; Josephus would probably have articles in most). P Aculeius (talk) 13:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * What Tamzin Said though I probably wouldn't comment if it wasn't for the relist casualdejekyll  00:43, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Bloodbender
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Avatar: The Last Airbender (season 3). Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 02:58, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Bloodbender → Avatar: The Last Airbender (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not mentioned in that get article, leaving the connection between the redirect and its target unclear. Steel1943 (talk) 14:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 16:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: Bloodbending is a plot element in the season 3 episode "The Puppetmaster", but I'm undecided if Avatar: The Last Airbender (season 3) would make for a good redirect target or not.--AlexandraIDV 15:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep since redirects are cheap, and this, as seen above, is mentioned in an episode, so I see no reason to delete this article. The whole point of RFA is to delete potentially problematic redirects, this is not that. Lallint  ⟫⟫⟫  Talk  16:21, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * ...Umm, no. As mentioned above and by myself, the redirect targeting its current target is unhelpful due to its lack of identifying it in the target article, in addition to potential alternative target(s) existing. Anyone trying to understand what the redirect's subject represents will currently be led to nothing in the article (just mention in an episode is not enough; making that claim is akin to a WP:NOTFANDOM issue), meaning WP:RDEL (probably point #2) applies. Steel1943  (talk) 22:26, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender_(season_3), where it's discussed the most... or just to the whole season page, as it is discussed later as well at #ep56. Without prejudice against a subsequent retarget somewhere else if a better target emerges. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 10:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * to either Avatar: The Last Airbender (season 3) or The Legend of Korra (season 1), which also mentions the fictional technique. Possible we should, since there are two reasonable targets. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 17:10, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

No color
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 19%23No color

Baroness Brightman
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 18%23Baroness Brightman

Russian Fiasco
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  .  ✗  plicit  11:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Russian Fiasco → 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

This phrase is not used at the target, and has been used in a variety of contexts, including in this journal article on the First Chechen War. Even with the huge weight of current events and my Ukraine-heavy search history influencing the results, Google's first page doesn't give me a single thing on the current fiasco, instead reaching as far back as the Russian Civil War. -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 10:16, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete as said this can be applied to any number of issues. Slatersteven (talk) 10:34, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nomination P1221 (talk) 10:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom - WP:RECENTISM, when doing a Google search for Russian fiasco there are references to the current invasion as well as the First Chechen War and the Soviet-Afghan War. Too broad to only apply to one conflict. Bonoahx (talk) 11:15, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete too broad / not specific to current Ukraine conflict Ilenart626 (talk) 12:09, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: too vague. Veverve (talk) 14:58, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

TERF-related redirects
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 19%23TERF-related redirects

TP:TI
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  .  ✗  plicit  11:50, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * TP:TI → Template:Top icon (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Unused pseudo-namespace shortcut, the only of its kind. While "T:" is a valid pseudonamespace for limited purposes (probably not including this) per WP:PNS and WP:SHORTCUT, there is no consensus for a "TP" pseudonamespace, and there's been an understanding for quite some time that no new pseudonamespaces should be created. -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 09:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - tbh, I don't the history behind: "there's been an understanding for quite some time that no new pseudonamespaces should be created" - but I've thought an abbreviation/short cut for "template" would be handy (much like the abbr/short cuts we have so many other things). Why not have "TP" as an abbr/short cut for all templates? -  wolf  22:56, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Because unlike, say, "WP:" shortcuts—which are created dynamically expanded to non-shortcut form by the software, don't add any maintenance burden, and, most importantly, aren't pages in mainspace, or even pages at all —creating a system of "TP:" pseudonamespace shortcuts would mean creating new redirects for every template someone sees fit to do so for, all with their own maintenance burden, all cluttering up things like Special:AllPages for anyone looking for mainspace content. The consensus I referred to—and which I should have linked, but couldn't find at the moment of writing this nomination—is : There is consensus that new "pseudo-namespace" redirects ("MOS:", "T:", etc) should be strongly discouraged if not prohibited in all but exceptional cases. As such, if someone wishes to establish a pseudonamespace for templates (or to expand the existing "T:" pseudonamespace, which is currently limited to a small number of legacy cases like ), they should open a discussion at WP:VPR. The same if someone wants to propose an actual namespace alias for "TP:", like "WP:" and "WT:", although I think that is very unlikely to get consensus. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 23:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC), ed. 17:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Unlinked and inappropriate CNR. ev iolite   (talk)  01:00, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per existing consensus against new pseudonamespaces. – Uanfala (talk) 14:58, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per above. Gonnym (talk) 12:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

P:TUVALU
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Portal:Tuvalu. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 11:43, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * P:TUVALU → Wikipedia:WikiProject Tuvalu (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Per WP:SHORTCUT, "P:" pseudonamespace redirects are meant for portals, not WikiProjects. Suggest retarget to Portal:Tuvalu. -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 09:39, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * No objection on my part. Aridd (talk) 11:56, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget per nom casualdejekyll  14:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget/support per nom. Veverve (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Top radio
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to TOPradio.  MBisanz  talk 01:42, 27 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Top radio → List of most-listened-to radio programs (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Encourage article creation for either Top Radio (Nigeria), Top Radio (Spain) (no article in any wiki but it's a station in Madrid), or de:Radio Top. An IP attempted to blank this redirect in 2012. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 21:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.3em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 23:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget to TOPradio. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:41, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Tavix ( talk ) 21:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC) Relisting comment: A lot of different options proposed here. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 04:56, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * disambiguate to the current list (top radio programmes), the German interwiki link, the TOPradio. Since it is a lowercase "r" it wouldn't be any of the three suggested topics at the top of the nomination -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 12:08, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete as ambiguous, and no suitable current targets. However, if "TOPradio" is pronounced as "Top radio", then we have a case to retarget there. For the current target, we already have helpful redirects Top radio program and Top radio show. Jay (talk) 04:21, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I think a Top radio (disambiguation) page is in order. casualdejekyll  14:46, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Retarget to TOPradio. I checked out their website and it looks to be styled as two lowercase words now? -- Tavix ( talk ) 22:11, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget per Tavix. I don't find it plausible as a truncated search term for the top radio programs. Disambiguation should absolutely be done once articles about any of the other stations with the name are created. – Uanfala (talk) 23:57, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Top Albums Sales
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Top Album Sales.  Jay (talk) 06:07, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Top Albums Sales → Billboard Japan (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

There's also US Top Album Sales. As-is, name too vague to mean one specific chart. George Ho (talk) 19:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 03:30, 25 February 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  14:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC) Relisting comment: Three options offered here. Break the tie. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 03:48, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep and hatnote to Top Album Sales, also add hatnote to the Japan version. AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 20:07, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: too vague. Veverve (talk) 09:59, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * REtarget to Top Album Sales, and hatnote as necessary -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:56, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Retarget per 65, as a plausible misnomer. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 10:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget per IP as R from incorrect name Bonoahx (talk) 11:11, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget, with hatnote in target article leading to disambiguation page that list other top album sales chart. C933103 (talk) 17:23, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Hot Albums
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was no consensus  .  Jay (talk) 05:37, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Hot Albums → Billboard Japan (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

The retarget name as-is looks too vague to mean one specific thing. It may also mean Billboard Top 200 or any other albums chart. Also, it's linked by only one article at the moment. George Ho (talk) 19:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jay (talk) 03:25, 25 February 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  14:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC) Relisting comment: Last relisting, hoping to get a third opinion. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 03:47, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep as only one specific chart, disambiguate if other charts are also named Hot Albums. AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 20:08, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Veverve (talk) 09:57, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment there are several albums called "Hot" listed at hot (disambiguation) -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 04:57, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Retarget to Billboard 200 - main billboard's album chart a more likely search target than Japanese billboard's, especially in English. They call their song chart Hot 100 so it would be a reasonable assumption for them to call their album chart Hot 200 as well casualdejekyll  14:48, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Flavio Josefo
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 22:12, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Flavio Josefo → Josephus (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

WP:RFFL, no connection of topic with Spanish or Portuguese. Avilich (talk) 03:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 03:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete per WP:RLOTE. Narky Blert (talk) 11:11, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

יוסף בן מתתיהו
Relisted, see Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 18%23יוסף בן מתתיהו

Afghan War (2001–current)
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was keep  . Various reasons for keeping some or all of these include preserving links, significant page views, being a previous title of the page, preserving edit history, and the argument that the War in Afghanistan may still be ongoing due to the Panjshir conflict.  I considered deleting just War in Afghanistan(2001-present), but that redirect alone has six mainspace links! -- Tavix  ( talk ) 21:41, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

As the war has officially ended, we should rename and delete these redirects. Redirects are cheap, but they should not be misleading. Anarchyte ( talk ) 13:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <span id="Afghan War (2001–current)">Afghan War (2001–current) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghan War (2001-current)">Afghan War (2001-current) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * 2001-present War in Afghanistan → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * 2001-present war in Afghanistan → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghan War (2001–present)">Afghan War (2001–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghan War (2001-present)">Afghan War (2001-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghan war (2001–present)">Afghan war (2001–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghan war (2001-present)">Afghan war (2001-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghan War (2015–present)">Afghan War (2015–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghan War (2015-present)">Afghan War (2015-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghanistan War (2001-Present)">Afghanistan War (2001-Present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="Afghanistan War (2001-present)">Afghanistan War (2001-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War crimes in the War in Afghanistan (2001–present)">War crimes in the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War crimes in the War in Afghanistan (2001-present)">War crimes in the War in Afghanistan (2001-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2001 - present)">War in Afghanistan (2001 - present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2001 – present)">War in Afghanistan (2001 – present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2001 to present)">War in Afghanistan (2001 to present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2001–Present)">War in Afghanistan (2001–Present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2001-Present)">War in Afghanistan (2001-Present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2001–present)">War in Afghanistan (2001–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2001-present)">War in Afghanistan (2001-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in afghanistan (2001–present)">War in afghanistan (2001–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in afghanistan (2001-present)">War in afghanistan (2001-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2015–present)">War in Afghanistan (2015–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2015-present)">War in Afghanistan (2015-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan (2015—present)">War in Afghanistan (2015—present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * <span id="War in Afghanistan(2001-present)">War in Afghanistan(2001-present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Delete as it has essentially no page traffic. Keep  as it has a bit of traffic probably due to incoming links. I don't think the redirects are necessarily misleading; they're just out of date. If a redirect has existed for long enough and has enough page views, it makes sense to keep as long as it can't reasonably be superseded by this and seeing that there's no other ongoing Afghan war that began in 2001, I don't think that is a huge risk. <b style="color: #ea5a5a;">Tartar</b>Torte 15:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The question then becomes when is "current" truly misleading? In 2025, 2030? People can type "Afghan War" or "War in Afghanistan" into the search bar and they'll be presented with links that say "Current". That will definitely lead to confusion eventually.  Anarchyte  ( talk ) 03:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * What do you think about others below? Sawol (talk) 16:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * 2001-present War in Afghanistan
 * 2001-present war in Afghanistan
 * Afghan War (2001–present)
 * Afghan War (2001-present)
 * Afghan war (2001–present)
 * Afghan war (2001-present)
 * Afghan War (2015–present)
 * Afghan War (2015-present)
 * Afghanistan War (2001-Present)
 * Afghanistan War (2001-present)
 * War crimes in the War in Afghanistan (2001–present)
 * War crimes in the War in Afghanistan (2001-present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2001 - present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2001 – present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2001 to present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2001–Present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2001-Present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2001–present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2001-present)
 * War in afghanistan (2001–present)
 * War in afghanistan (2001-present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2015–present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2015-present)
 * War in Afghanistan (2015—present)
 * War in Afghanistan(2001-present)


 * I would also want those renamed, but I'll note that some of the 2015 redirects have substantive history that we should not delete. If this RfD is successful, we can discuss the rest after. Anarchyte  ( talk ) 03:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 02:41, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * . No reason to delete one and not the other (and by keep all, I mean all of the ones raised by Sawol also). It has been less than a year. These aren't ambiguous with anything, so deletion doesn't provide any positive utility, just runs the risk of breaking external links. A7V2 (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The longer we leave them up, the more external links will start existing. Anarchyte  ( talk ) 12:28, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Given some of these have been around since 2001 I don't think that's much of an issue. That said, I am switching to delete War in Afghanistan(2001-present) and retarget all of the rest to War in Afghanistan, per Pppery. A7V2 (talk) 11:41, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 03:37, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete War in Afghanistan(2001-present) as an unlikely typo (no space before paren). Retarget the rest to War in Afghanistan (serving as a de-facto disambiguation page between the current target and the Panjshir conflict which is AFAIK still going on). * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 05:04, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep all, at least on the basis of the "present" criterion. I don't want to break old links to anything, and we've kept after the redirect was made obsolete (RfD). Perhaps a "R from obsolete/former disambiguation" template is in order? -B RAINULATOR 9 (TALK) 01:24, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * That is a good idea. Anarchyte  ( talk ) 04:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Bundling and taggng all redirects under discussion. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 02:35, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * This nomination has expanded way beyond the initial proposal. I think this RFD should not just be relisted but restarted as it is unlikely that those who have already participated will return to see the change that occurred. What do you think, Anarchyte? Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 22:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the restarting. This is a mess. I can't tell what the original proposal was, but all the older votes should be essentially nullified, IMO. – Jadebenn (talk &middot;&#32;contribs &middot;&#32;subpages) 06:59, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree. I initially listed two redirects ("2001-current") not knowing how many more there were. You'll note above that I intended to leave this as just those two to see if we could get a consensus on some before nominating the rest. It looks like there are even more links that aren't included here (linked by below). I have no opposition to either procedurally closing this and restarting it, or relisting it and leaving talk page notifications for everyone that has already participated.  Anarchyte  ( talk ) 03:42, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I've never cast this "vote" before but I think this RFD should be Restarted given the huge expansion of redirects under consideration from the original two that editors commented upon. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 05:59, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * There are also links like War in Afghanistan (2001-) not covered by the current discussion. C933103 (talk) 01:33, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - "War in Afghanistan (2001–present)" is the previous name of the page. It is linked to from a lot of places (including Al-Qaeda), and the introduction of the RfD tag to the redirect page actually broke it. Regarding the actual proposal, this seems like it will break a lot of things (especially external links) and deleting them because they're "misleading" is not very convincing IMO. 212.21.42.228 (talk) 02:56, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep most. Given that the ongoing conflict in Panjshir can still plausibly be regarded as part of the war, these redirects are in principle appropriate. If these are crowding out more meaningful suggestions in the search drop-down box, then the solution is to create the corresponding correct redirects (not that there's much scope for confusing readers to begin with). I don't think there's a point in disambiguation by retargeting to War in Afghanistan: I don't see any entries there that could plausibly be what a reader is looking for (neither the events in Panjshir nor the conflict with Islamic State begun anywhere near 2001). Some redirects can be deleted though: at least War in Afghanistan(2001-present) (because of the missing space) and War in Afghanistan (2015—present) (we already have all the variants with hyphens and n-dashes, spaced as well as unspaced, we really don't need a form with an implausible m-dash). – Uanfala (talk) 01:01, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Constitutive nations
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was retarget  to Ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Feel free to write an article on the topic if you are willing and able. -- Tavix  ( talk ) 21:28, 26 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Constitutive nations → Administrative division (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Delete not mentioned in the target. Or retarget to Ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina as R avoided double redirect for Constitutive nations of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Thesmp (talk) 19:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC) WP:STRIKESOCK. -- Tavix ( talk ) 19:36, 26 March 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  23:56, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 02:11, 4 March 2022 (UTC) Relisting comment: Could there be some agreement on retarget page? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 03:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: too vague and WP:REDYES. Veverve (talk) 20:54, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget per nom. If  exists then so should this, assuming no one can demonstrate ambiguity. Any REDYES argument should be made at a separate RfD for that redirect (with which this would then be bundled as an ADR). --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 07:20, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Retarget to Ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina if the term is specific to that country. Other options could be Yugoslavism considering the term to be Yugoslavia-centric, or Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which is the target of Constitutive peoples of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Jay (talk) 18:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Expand into article according to other Wikipedia language edition articles in d:Q1763527.C933103 (talk) 01:29, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete as too vague. --Olchug (talk) 17:18, 21 March 2022 (UTC) WP:STRIKESOCK. -- Tavix  ( talk ) 19:36, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

SCP Level 0
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 02:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * SCP Level 0 → Classified information in the United States (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Not mentioned in the article, most likely a reference to the fictional SCP Foundation, which uses this term to refer to janitors (or other jobs) at secure sites whom would not have access to classified information. Not sure what the implication is, but.. casualdejekyll 03:13, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Just discovered that the creator of the article User talk:LittleG jr. has been engaged in much more blatant SCP vandalism in the past. In case that influences your !vote. casualdejekyll  03:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. This page was originally an attempt at an article for the usage of the SCP Foundation community, but was redirected by ; I agree that the current redirect is not helpful while the original article would have likely qualified for e.g. A7. ev iolite   (talk)  01:12, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Economics of internet
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was delete  . Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 02:48, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I went back and forth on these two, considering speedy deletion as an implausible misnomer, just as I did for Socialism of internet and Communism of internet. I ultimately thought that a reasonable person might disagree with me, so I am taking them to RfD for discussion. Delete as implausible. Sdrqaz (talk) 01:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Economics of internet → e-commerce (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Capitalism of internet → e-commerce (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]


 * Keep the first one delete the second one. "Economics of internet" can reasonably be used to find articles that mention internet economic activity, thus e-commerce seems like a reasonable redirect target. However "Capitalism of internet" is talking about an idea/ideology/whatever, and any redirect with such title should target a page that specifically describe the discussion of such on the internet. As there doesn't apparently exists such page on English Wikipedia now, I think the second redirect should be deleted. C933103 (talk) 14:53, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Noting that an IP has redirected both to digital economy. Sdrqaz (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete both - "Economics of Internet" could easily refer to the economic mechanisms behind Internet access and use, rather than commerce conducted on the Internet. signed,Rosguill talk 02:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Future Event List
<div class="boilerplate rfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#FFEEDD; margin-top:0.5em; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #888888;"> Closed discussion, see full discussion. Result was:
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was bypass double redirect/keep  . Per C933103's concern, I will add a hatnote to the target section pointing to Timelines of the future. (non-admin closure)  --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 18:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Future Event List → Future event list (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]
 * Future event list → Discrete-event simulation (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure:  ]

Overcapitalized unused redirect; I moved the redirect to Future event list to make it usable in article text, which left this redirect. Dicklyon (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.3em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 01:17, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep since the only rationale for deletion is due to capitalization, this looks to be a valid R from alternative capitalization. Since you moved it, this should also be kept as a R from move. I don't understand the point of moving it though. If you didn't think "Future Event List" was a good redirect, you should have just nominated that for deletion instead of performing a WP:MOVEREDIRECT. That aside, I'm not sure Future event list is a good redirect—it's not defined at the target (and "future" isn't even mentioned!) . -- Tavix ( talk ) 23:28, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, this discussion didn't play out the way I thought it would. Delete both per Jay. -- Tavix ( talk ) 03:48, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: Relisting to bundle with related redirect that has been proposed for deletion by Jay Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed,Rosguill talk 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC) Relisting comment: Relisting to allow the March 2nd log page to be closed. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:blue; text-shadow:cyan 0.0em 0.0em 0.3em;">CycloneYoris</b> <b style="color:purple">talk!</b> 01:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Future event list per Tavix, and delete Future Event List as a consequence. Jay (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Target both to Discrete-event simulation as Eviolite has added a mention. Hatnote to Timelines of the future. Jay (talk) 06:39, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - can't say I'm familiar with the topic but "future event list" seems like a commonly used term for which "event list" is just a simplification. ev iolite   (talk)  23:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete both as the word future is not mentioned at the target. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 03:23, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I have added a mention to the target with several references, though they are mostly just resources created by university professors; what do you think? ev iolite   (talk)  01:08, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Disambiguation since the title could be confused for various list articles in Timelines of the future.C933103 (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.