Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2008 April 23

= April 23 =

Swollen caps?
Here at work if there is a computer that is malfunctioning, we can call it in and techs will be sent out during the day to fix it. Emails are sent to the person who reported it on the initial creation of the work ticket as well as when the ticket is amended or closed. I just got one of those emails and I really don't understand what it means. I can't reply because it's an automated address. Besides, it's not that vitally important that I understand what they meant. What was added to the ticket was confusing though, so that's where you guys come in... I reported a system that wouldn't boot up and the response on the work ticket was "Machine has swollen caps and will be replaced tomorrow." So what are "swollen caps"?! Dismas |(talk) 01:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Swollen capacitors, apparently. Never heard of it myself but Googling the term makes it seem like it's a not uncommon problem. Learn something new every day. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 02:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never seen it myself but capacitors that are defective or used outside their rated voltages can overheat, bulge or leak, or even pop like firecrackers in extreme cases.
 * This has been relatively common since 2000 when a surprisingly high number of defective capacitors entered the market. Read all about it at Capacitor Plague. It's an exciting tale of intrigue, engineering, and industrial espionage gone awry. APL (talk) 03:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow! Thanks!  Dismas |(talk) 05:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It isn't "swollen caps" (which were correctly described above at Capacitor Plague) but it's also interesting to note that some types of tantalum capacitors are famous for, ahem, "smoke events", sometimes producing explosive events. As a result, many electronics vendors have tried to minimize the number of tantalum caps that they use or being very careful to select non-explosive types; "organic tantalums" are generally considered "OK" as are internally-fused types.

Atlant (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Which Google page does it show up on?
I'd love to be able to easily input a search string ("widgets and wonders") and a website (http://joeswidgets.com) and know what page of the Google search results it comes up on, if any (e.g., page 5 of that particular search) without me having to wade through the results myself. Surely there is a site that'll let you do that? I can't find one though it seems obvious. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 04:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. Enter (excluding the [] brackets) [search string site:www.site.com] or similar. EG [widgets and wonders site:joeswidgets.com] -- SGBailey (talk) 14:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's not what the Captain was asking for. He's not actually trying to find the string on a certain website&mdash;presumably, he already knows that.  He wants to know how deep in the "global" search results his site falls (cf. SEO), and the "site:" method doesn't tell you that. -- Coneslayer (talk) 14:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

computer programs
is there any type of computer program that could be used to activate different devices at certain times such as cameras or lights?Davidsherwood1956 (talk) 05:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How did you wire them up in the first place? --antilivedT 09:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * i didn't. i would like to install a system from the ground up. since i am no longer able to get around much it would make my life a lot easier to have something i can adjust from the house. i know that i can put things like lights on a timer but then i have to get outside to change it. the problem with technology is that after a certain age you understand less and less of it. i realize my question may be stupid and judging from others on this site i guess it is,but at this point in my life it's as good as it gets.Davidsherwood1956 (talk) 20:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It sounds like maybe the X10 system might help. The article is not great, but basically, it is a system that allows you to plug in controller modules to various outlets and appliances, and then control them from a central location. -- LarryMac | Talk  20:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * And at a higher level of cost and sophistication, LonBus can easily do it.


 * Atlant (talk) 20:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you considered using Lego? You might need to get a local nerd to give you a hand, but you can do neat stuff with their techno kits. --Lisa4edit (talk) 08:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Dilbert.com
Has the new Dilbert web-site been made by Dilbert himself or by his workmates? 217.168.3.246 (talk) 08:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, Let's hope that's an April fool's joke that's gone on too long. (I especially like the fields that just say "sdfsdfsdf".) Personally, even though I'm not a Texan, I read the comics here : . Nice and simple. APL (talk) 12:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The one good thing to come out of it is that there's now an official feed. In colour and everything! — Matt Eason (Talk &#149; Contribs) 16:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Is there any way to view the Sunday strips. Like this one http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-04-20/?Page=3 is completely unviewable and now we can't view the Sunday strips anymore. William Ortiz (talk) 01:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Check out the 'Fast' version of the site. It has nothing but the comic as an image and a calendar for finding past comics. The only place it's mentioned is in a tiny link at the bottom of the main site (marked 'Linux/Unix', bizarrely) and on Scott Adams's blog. — Matt Eason (Talk &#149; Contribs) 13:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Safari browser
Can any one please suggest the reliable website from where i can load Mozilla firefox or sfari browser?Can it be downloaded in the presence of internet explorer?Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.2.174.41 (talk) 09:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you trying to install Firefox or Apple Safari? If so just go to their website (Firefox or Safari) and download the installer. Internet Explorer should not interfere with either of them. --antilivedT 09:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Can I pimp Opera here? Since you are trying new web browsers you may as well try all 3 of the "alternatives". TheGreatZorko (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, Opera Internet Suite is a good package. However, I would still recommend Mozilla Firefox to anyone who can install it themselves (they will be able to install addons too). Kushal 10:54, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

CNF for QBF1
Can a formula in QBF1 be transformed into conjugation normal form without while remaining in QBF1 and without exponentiall growth? Taemyr (talk) 10:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ant vs Make
Is Ant any good? What can it do that Make can't? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.223.156.1 (talk) 11:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Since Ant uses Java implementations of many tasks where make calls shell commands, it is more portable to non-UNIX platforms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.210.249.81 (talk) 08:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, Ant has a variety of plug-ins that semi-automate a variety of compliation tasks, especially Java-ish ones. See for example many of the Java-specific addon tasks here. While the functionality of these tasks could be replicated by custom Makefile commands and/or shell scripts, having a library of pre-made tasks means you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Warmfuzzygrrl | Talk 18:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hex to dec in PostgreSQL
Is it possible to convert a hex number to decimal using PostgreSQL's functions only, that is without a custom function or without data manipulation via eg.. a Perl script? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.116.233 (talk) 11:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this applies to PostgreSQL, but in Oracle Database, there is a built-in function called "TO_NUMBER" which is used like:
 * The number of 'X's must be the same or greater than the number of digits in the hexidecimal number. PostgreSQL probably has a similar function, but I'm not sure. 137.148.165.235 (talk) 16:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Good attempt, and PostgreSQL has a to_number function, but it looks like it doesn't support the "X" conversion. It does, however, support Roman numerals, which I'm sure comes in handy far more often.  It looks like the to_hex function might be what you want&mdash;I'm not completely sure from your question what exactly you need.  -- Coneslayer (talk) 17:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Good attempt, and PostgreSQL has a to_number function, but it looks like it doesn't support the "X" conversion. It does, however, support Roman numerals, which I'm sure comes in handy far more often.  It looks like the to_hex function might be what you want&mdash;I'm not completely sure from your question what exactly you need.  -- Coneslayer (talk) 17:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

XML "shorthand" language
Hi, a couple of mounth ago i have encounterd a "languge" that alows you to describe a xml instatce in short. for example the xml:

will become something like this:

<animal <dog name="billy"

does anybody know what i mean, thx very much:)


 * That's... an appallingly bad idea. How do you know when a clause ends? If you add another element after that, how do we know if it is a subset of animal or dog? We're not taking whitespace seriously, are we? It strikes me as a really silly thing to sacrifice clarity in order to save a tiny amount of space... --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 14:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Check out Simple Outline XML, YAML, JSON. --Sean 17:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

MyLibraryDV video playback
I cannot play the MyLibraryDV DRM-protected movies downloaded via my library. The audio part is OK but the video fails to play. I think my Windows Media Player does not have the proper video codec for the movies.

Here's what GSpot says:


 * File name: ATK521E.wmv
 * File Type: ASF (.WMA/.WMV)
 * Mime Type: video/x-ms-asf
 * File Length Correct
 * Sys Bitrate: 755 kb/s
 * Created: 2007 Jul 11 11:49:43
 * User data / meta data
 * Aud:WM/WMADRCPeakReference:11480
 * Aud:WM/WMADRCAverageReference:2205
 * Audio ← PLAYABLE
 * 0x0161 (WMA v2)
 * 0x01:44100Hz 48 kb/s tot (2 chnls)
 * Status Undetermined
 * Video ← NOT PLAYABLE
 * WMV3
 * WMP v9 (VC-1 Simple/Main)
 * Codec Status Undetermined

My Windows Media Player says it's the latest update. Whay can I do? -- Toytoy (talk) 13:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

New Username at login page
I've asked this question before, but I can't find the answer. Sorry.

My friend has just received a computer from the wife of a friend of his who passed away recently. Unfortunately, it is password protected with usernames for the family. He has lost contact with the wife and can't ask her to help, so he wants to know how to make a new username so he can login, as he can't get past the login page. Clicking 'cancel' doesn't work (like it used to). If anyone knows the answer to this, could I get a step-by-step guide on how to do it, as I have to go back to my friend's place to do it. He obviously doesn't have internet access, so I had to come back to my place to ask this question.

Either that, or is there any way to find out one of the actual passwords before getting onto the login page?

Much appreciated! --ChokinBako (talk) 14:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have been told to try this - which is a bootable disk (you burn it to a CD and boot from it) and it will allow you to remove the passwords from the account using a part of the program called Picklock or Lockpick possibly TheGreatZorko (talk) 14:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, thanks. But I forgot to say the CD-ROM drive is knackered. It looks like someone attacked it with a knife. I've looked around for a compatible one, but it's a 'slinky' one, smaller than the usual ones, and very expensive.ChokinBako (talk) 14:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You could buy a USB CD rom drive, which are relativly inexpensive. The PC will be rather useless without a CD rom drive anyway. Other than that I am sure there are programs that will remove the XP user passwords that will run off a USB memory stick. I will have a look for one. TheGreatZorko (talk) 14:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If it's Windows XP, there may be a workaround. Booting into Safe Mode will probably bring up the account login screen, and there should be an extra account listed called "Administrator". If that account was never given a password, which it wouldn't be unless the owner was computer savvy, you can go in with that account. And because it's the admin account, you can use it to change the password of the other account. Useight (talk) 15:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Try ntpasswd. It removes user passwords on Windows 2000/XP, and can be run from a floppy. --grawity 19:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Strange BSOD on Win XP SP2
Hi all,

I use an Win XP Home SP2 notebook with some WIDCOMM Bluetooth adapter. All drivers and system is up-to-date. Now, when I activate or deactivate the BT device over HW or SW switch, occasionnally the system BSODs with "PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA", file "btaudio.sys". What's wrecked in my system and how can I fix this wreckage?

62.216.214.96 (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * XP SP2 has its own Bluetooth stack, and so Widcomm drivers might not work correctly on Windows XP SP2. (Though I had no such problems when I used Widcomm drivers.) What device do you have? --grawity 19:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems like the BCM 2045...actually it's Broadcom, but the program manufacturer is Widcomm...apparently Broadcom has bought Widcomm.88.217.81.175 (talk) 13:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Try this page. --grawity 19:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * After applying that update actually stuff broke down, I'm sorry I forgot to mention this...any way to downgrade the drivers? 62.216.215.30 (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't know what type of PC to go for
What are the pro's and con's of Mac pc's and what are the pro's and cons of windows pc's because i dont know whih operating system to choose? --Hadseys Chat Contribs 17:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * See religious war for more info. The short, most objective answer is probably that it's down to personal preference.  Also, you can get bargain basement PCs, whereas the smallest new Mac you can get will have a higher price than a similar PC.  Friday (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * related to the above, an article in slate.com (i think? maybe salon.com) a few months back, pointing out that used macs can be resold for at least some fraction of their value, whereas used PCs are basically bulk matter, which tends to mitigate the initial cost differential. other than that, the advice is as it always was: decide what you want to do, then decide what software you want to do it with, then decide what machine will run that software. Gzuckier (talk) 18:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I doubt many people consider resale value when purchasing a computer. All (and absolutely all) you need to consider is what you need.  What programs will you run?  Don't know?  You better find out.  You don't buy a computer and then wonder what you can use it for.  You buy it because you know what what you are going to use it for.  Once you know what programs you will be running, see how much the cost on both Windows and Mac.  Are they even available on Mac?  Tip: Don't emulate.  You can emulate Windows in Mac to run Windows programs - but just say no.  If you need Windows, buy Windows.  If a Mac meets your needs, you can buy a Mac.  Finally, once you know what you need a computer to do and what computers can do it, you will have a price range.  How much are you willing to spend.  I suggest going for the middle-price.  There will be dirt cheap options.  There will be absurdly expensive options.  There will be middle-ground options.  Does this plan work?  Yes.  I purchase computers every week.  I refuse to screw around with making them work.  So, when a person comes into my office and says that they need the Mac Air.  I ask what they specifically need to do.  Then, I purchase a computer that meets his or her needs (and it won't be a Mac Air).  So, to repeat, you need to know what you need first.  Then, come back here and ask "What is a good computer for doing .....?" --  k a i n a w &trade; 23:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent advice, Kainaw! Kushal 10:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, many people don't listen to such reason. For example, most mobile phones are capable of a whole lot more than making phone calls, yet almost no one wants a phone without it being small and light with a colour screen, 2MP camera, MP3 player, web browser, etc.  The same applies to computers; when I think about it, my new laptop is far more capable than what I use it for.  I bought it because it did all I wanted, plus many things I might like to try in the future, plus it is lightweight, and is a good looking, desirable gadget to have.  Astronaut (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing is, though, these days there's very little you can do on a Mac that you can't do on a PC, and vice versa. The Mac has traditionally been the computer of choice for creative types who like to do Photoshop, edit music, that kind of thing.  But all those applications run fine on a PC as well.  Same goes for number-crunching applications which have traditionally run best on a PC - a Mac can handle those very well.  Email, web surfing, word processing - you can do those equally well on either platform.  So, unless you mostly want to play games on it (for which the PC is way dominant), or run some super-abstruse application, the thing about identifying your needs is a bit of a red herring.  You should look, instead, at ease of use, the user interface, security, that kind of thing.  And if those become your criteria - as they should - there's only one computer to go for, and it starts with an M. --Richardrj talkemail 13:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

My choice would be a PC. Secondly, go for Windows XP because as a general rule of thumb you shouldnt move to a new OS without 2 service packs being released first, in this case, for Vista. XP has had 2 service packs already and is stable. Mac's aren't that easy to network anyway. Personal choice: PC. Dep. Garcia ( Talk   + |  Help Desk  |  Complaints  ) 19:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * EDIT: you put "Mac pc's and what are the pro's and cons of windows pc's" Mac arent PC's. Generally, PC = Windows. Macs = well Macs. Dep. Garcia ( Talk   + |  Help Desk  |  Complaints  ) 20:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * PC is generaly used to refer to the hardware that Windows will run on. So a PC could be running Linux or BSD as well.
 * There are even a few folk who ignore refuse to acknowledge the common usage of our language and use the archaic acronym expansion of PC ("personal computer") and try to claim that any computer a person owns is a PC, including Macs. Those people are crazy. APL (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, the term "PC" for "Windows" is used by Mac people in a feeble attempt to claim that the Mac is not a PC. Over time, they have been able to brainwash most people into believing that a Mac is not a PC.  It is a wondrous machine that will not only look pretty on your desk but also cleanse your soul as you bask the sweet glow of its screen.  Those who are "crazy" enough to not get brainwashed still see the Mac as a PC running Mac OS. --  k a i n a w &trade; 03:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, all six of you who haven't been 'brainwashed' by the advent of convenient and useful terminology used to distinguish between Mac hardware and IBM Compatible hardware, are a vanishing minority who just wind up confusing people. (Like those of us who still pronounce "Gif" in the original and correct way, so that it sounds like a brand of peanut butter.)APL (talk) 12:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I still recall an era when there were two kinds of computers (10 kinds of computers?). There were "IBM-Compatible" ("PC")  and there was "Everything else."  In the present world of internet-applications and effective software distribution, there are far fewer programs which are not available in some form, for all platforms.  (Video games are a notable exception).
 * I would recommend the PC because you will probably get higher performance for the same price; you will have more choices for hardware and software upgrades, and you will not be misled into thinking of your computer as an "appliance" - because whether we use our machine for word processing, internet browsing, graphics, video, ... computers are for computation. Nimur (talk) 14:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There are two important aspects to take into consideration. PC's are by far the most dominant of the two, so if you need to do something which you have no idea how to, you are far more likely to have a friend who's a PC guru to help you. Looking for help for a MAC related issue will take that little bit more time and effort. PC/Windows software is also massively more dominant than MAC, so if you're looking for utilities and/or apps that do obscure or specialised things you're far more likely to find something that does the job on a PC. This is not to mention drivers for any sort of peripheral you might need. Everyone will write a Windows driver for their hardware but not many will bother writing MAC drivers. Then of course there's the highly illegal issue of pirate software and games which are easily found for PC (on the 'net or from a friend of a friend....) which you'd struggle to get for MAC.  Zun aid  ©  ®  14:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * See my post above. It's not true to say that PCs are "massively more dominant" in software.  As I wrote above, most mainstream applications are available for, and run equally well, on both platforms.  And looking at the OP's question, I have a hunch he/she is  not going to be looking for obscure or specialised apps/utilities/peripherals.  As for tech support, there are Mac forums all over the place where you are likely to get a helpful reply very quickly indeed (that's my experience, anyway, for what it's worth). --Richardrj talkemail 14:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• use mac if you like the way it 'works' use PC if you want to connect with more people. use MAc if you are not technically minded. 86.143.165.201 (talk) 13:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you want to Get a Mac, get a mac! It is just another computer with user friendly hardware and running a well-polished operating system environment. It is NOT a way to attain nirvana. It is NOT perfect (although it is 'better' and more intuitive for some people). If you are looking for a desktop (and not a notebook), want to install Linux, or want to play those Bungie games, you might be better off building your own system. You will learn a lot about computers just by installing and using Linux. Just remember that Linux is not Windows. I don't think I can recommend MacBook Air to anyone as their primary (or only) computer yet ... (unless they have meticulous cost-effective wireless broadband Internet access where they are). Kushal 02:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

What is the max size (in km) that the battlefield 2 engine support???
What is the max size (in km) that the battlefield 2 engine support?? 189.97.86.35 (talk) 18:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * For those like me who have thus far been ignorant of what a "bf2 engine" might be, apparently it is a game engine for "Battlefield 2". --Sean 20:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Photoshop
Is there a group of Photoshop (or any similar photo altering program) enthusiasts on the net (or wiki??) that can alter a picture for me pro bono? --Endless Dan 21:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello Endless Dan, just to pick a few there is Photoshop Forums, Devppl Forums and Team Photoshop Forums. For a full list try simple search strings such as 'Photoshop Forums' in Google, Yahoo! or similar. Adam (Manors) 22:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. --Endless Dan 12:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * For use here, we have a bunch of helpful folks at Graphic Lab. --—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  20:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Cookies and user click trails
Hello, a question for you. Do websites share server log and IP address data with their advertising and tracking partners? For example, if say ebay.com as a customer hires 2o7.net to serve ads and analyze its customers' interactions with ebay, do both companies share access to those server logs? During an average day I deny cookies from 2o7, advertising, atdmt, att, bridgetrack, collarity, contextweb, doubleclick, google, hitbox, insightexpress, mcclatchyinteractive, questionmarket, realmedia, revsci, specificclick, tacoda, ugamsolutions, zwire and usually lots more (and I also use NoScript in Firefox which stops some requests). I asked an admin and looked at RFCs 2616 and 2965--and apologize if this is a FAQ--but I don't know enough about how commercial websites are run to answer this myself. Thanks for any thoughts. -Susanlesch (talk) 21:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No, that's not how it usually works. Advertising firms do track you across many different websites, but they don't look at the server logs directly; they most often use what is called a third-party cookie. It works like this: say you are on site SomeServer, which advertises using the firm FastAd (two fictional companies, obviously) to serve ads. So when you go to SomeServer, you see a big banner at the top of the page. That image doesn't come from SomeServers server, it comes from FastAds (that is, the ad-firms) server. Since that image is fetched from a different server, it either reads or installs a new cookie in your browser. Now, assuming FastAd has ads on all SomeServers pages, wherever you go on SomeServer, you are going to get an ad from FastAd, and that cookie will be read by them, every time.
 * I gather you already understand some of this, because you very prudently have already blocked a bunch of cookies from companies :) The point is, 207.net has no need to look at the logs directly, they can track you fine around ebay just by using cookies. They can see every page you clicked on.
 * The really scary part is of course that SomeSite isn't FastAds (back to the fictional example :) only client; FastAd probably have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of partners. So anywhere you go online, if that site uses FastAd, then that company will know exactly where you've been. They can gather an enormous amount of data that way, without ever having to look at a server log. On the internet, Big Brother isn't government agencies, it's advertising companies. I guess that's better than the government, but frankly, I don't really trust either of them. --Oskar 07:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess I should add another thing to my answer. Cookies are possibly not the only information ebay shares with their ad-partners, they could very easily share a bunch more: your sex, your age, your location, your purchases, etc., anything that might help the agency target ads to you more efficiently. I don't know, I don't work at ebay. But they don't share their entire server logs. --Oskar 07:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Those "third-party cookies" associated with inline images are the exact issue covered by RFC 2965 section 3.3.6. Those cookies are supposed to be ignored. It's a "MUST" in the RFC. A client which accepts those cookies is defective, according to this document which is the highest authority on the use of HTTP cookies.
 * Now the bonus question: what do you call a business based on routinely gaining access to information stored on other people's computers, which is only available to you because of defects in their software? --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 07:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Oskar and tcsetattr, for trying to answer this. If their cookies are denied, I assumed that the partners, let's pick on 2o7.net again, must record an IP address, otherwise they'd have nothing on which to track the visitor. Thus the question about sharing logs with their customers, e.g. ebay--if both parties have access to the IP address, there's little point in denying cookies. That's quite a reading of the RFC, tcsetattr (when I read that I thought that since the user agent knows the origin of the cookie request it is a "verifiable" transaction, forgetting the obvious design assumption of browsers, that most users have only the address bar to go on). Cookie monsters have been studied at places like CDT for ten years haven't they? I'm surprised the RFC isn't in the popular press, for example, this was a recent New York Times/comScore result. -—SusanLesch (talk) 17:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course the user agent (a.k.a. "client" or "browser") knows where the cookies are coming from - how would they get there otherwise? What they mean is did the user (a.k.a. "human") intend to start a session with that third party, or even have a chance to see that it was going to happen? Not if the images are retrieved automatically as part of the rendering of a web page, he didn't.
 * I have little doubt that what the authors were thinking when they wrote the definition of an unverifiable transaction was "DoubleClick bastards! This should kill them off." --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 21:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * And that definition is dated 2000, eight years ago. —SusanLesch (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

One more question, cross-site scripting says "many web applications tie session cookies to the IP address of the user who originally logged in" (statement is unsourced). From what I read the RFCs talk about the host or server IP address but not the user's IP address. So, my assumption is wrong, the cookie-setting partner, let's say 2o7.net, actually does have my IP address? Also I guess, if customer A acquires partner B (like Google and DoubleClick or Microsoft and Yahoo!) they can merge their logs? —SusanLesch (talk) 08:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)