Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2008 June 26

= June 26 =

M.C. Escher in three dimensions?
Like all science and math geeks (at least the ones who've read Gödel, Escher, Bach), I'm totally in love with the works of M.C. Escher. I've been thinking that these sort of illusions could be extended to the third dimension, like a videogame where you walk around in a surreal world. Has anyone tried doing this? Interactive surrealism in three dimensions? The only thing I can really think of is the game American McGee's Alice which had some of these elements. Any others? 217.213.160.231 (talk) 00:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There was this PSP game where there's a stick figure on a Escher-esque course and you rotate the camera to guide the person to the finishing point, forgot the name though. --antilivedT 09:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Echochrome - a little googling should turn up showing a video in action.87.102.86.73 (talk) 11:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Portal also might satisfy your request. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 12:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * also found this http://forums.indiegamer.com/archive/index.php/t-8822.html87.102.86.73 (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ico had a style that was vaguely reminiscant of certain spanish surrealists, an don't forget 3D Ant Attack - set in the city of 'antescher'..87.102.86.73 (talk) 13:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * At the Escher Museum in The Hague there is a 3-D animation of Escher art which you can "enter" with a virtual reality headset. The effect is very disorientating ! Gandalf61 (talk) 13:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

software for copy prevention of CD ROM
A friend of mine is going to market a data CD ROM containing chemistry tutorial for pre-university students. He wants the disk not easily copyable. Is there some easily manageable freeware which allows a basic level of protection? I am looking for something that prevents copying from disk to disk to copying from disk to hard drive. Among the copyrighted software which are the not so pricey options? Thanks for your reply. --Genuee (talk) 01:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You aren't likely to get many responses here. For one thing, most commercial copy protection schemes cost a bundle of money. For another, most Wikipedians (particularly on this reference desk) are technically savvy free software advocates who will tell you that it is better to not use DRM or copy protection at all. Here are some reasons I will save others the effort of typing: it would break the software for older systems and those that run Linux, students wouldn't be able to look at the CD on multiple computers at once, and anyone in that age range will be able to crack whatever copy protection scheme you use, anyway. « Aaron Rotenberg « Talk « 01:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The last one is the main point: it basically can't be done. Any attempt to perfectly protect a cd from being copied will invariably fail, because the contents of the cd must be read at some point. And when it is read, it can be copied. As they say, "Trying to make data not copyable is like trying to make water not wet". All that will happen is that it's going to annoy the students to no end when the DRM fails and makes them unable to use whatever is on there. DRM: Just say no! 217.213.160.231 (talk) 01:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It took all of six minutes for another "technically savvy free software advocate" to reply to this thread. This is definitely the wrong place to ask. « Aaron Rotenberg « Talk « 02:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have any data or references to back this up with, but I wouldn't be surprised if the heavier the copy protection scheme is, the less people are willing to pay for it, and the more pirating will go on (or the more people who will simply snub their nose at it and not use it). I personally feel a lot more respect for people who are open and straightforward and simply ask people to kindly pay for the privilege of honestly using their work.  As you will though.  --Prestidigitator (talk) 03:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You could write a program in machine code and write it into the boot sector of the disk. Of course, that would be insanely complicated and would require someone to start the computer up with the CD in, thereby not allowing them access to anything else on the computer. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 05:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What makes you think that people cannot modify machine code in the boot sector? Rilak (talk) 10:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

http://www.locklizard.com/purchase_digital_rights_management.htm (These people claim to be able to protect software and PDF files.) http://softwaredefender.com/ I've never used either of these services, so don't take this as an endorsement. Depending on the nature of your product you might consider writing your own key activation system. Of course, I feel obligated to point out that no copy protection scheme is foolproof, and few provide more than an inconvenience for a computer savvy individual who wants to copy your stuff. Consider the hassle it is for the users to have to deal with either activation codes, internet activation (not everyone is online!) or having to always keep the disk in the drive. APL (talk) 14:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What sort of data is on the disk? Is it software? Or is it easily viewable files, like html files?  If it's easily viewable files like HTML, it's a bit more complex. (and inconvenient to users, in my opinion.)
 * If the disk is really a program, then it's possible to make it at least "not easily copyable", (but still copyable!) but I'm not sure of an easy and inexpensive way to do this without software activation keys. (I understand that things like SecuROM are very expensive, but see CD/DVD_copy_protection. )
 * I agree with the comments above, DRM software and Free Software are unlikely to go together. There are a few services that may be acceptable, depending on your budget.

MySQL and PHP
I'm trying to get PHP and MySQL up and running on a Windows XP machine. I'm using Cherokee Web Server, PHP 5.2.6.6, and MySQL 5.0. Here's what works: web pages are working properly, and PHP scripts are executing. If I open a telnet connection to localhost, port 3306, it does connect. However, if I try to write a connection into a PHP script (e.g. mysqli_connect("localhost", "name", "password");), I get this:

Any ideas? I'd already added "E" to the variables_order line of php.ini after seeing this online as a possible cause, and nothing. Thanks, JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 01:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

How can you make a textbox that, when submitted, links you to the webpage of the name you typed in?
Hi all. I was wondering how you would incorporate a little form into a webpage, so that when you typed something in, it would open up the html name of what you typed in. Say, you were on www.test.com/index.htm and there was a little text box there. You typed in "notes", and the webpage opened up to www.test.com/notes.htm. If that's not easily feasible, what about typing in "notes.htm" instead?

What would it take to do this? I hope it's something that can be done with html or javascript as my free website host doesn't support CGI or Perl (or whatever it takes). Much help greatly appreciated! -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 03:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What you want is an HTTP redirect, and that article should give you all the details you need to implement it server-side (including straight HTML). The Javascript solution is a one-liner, I believe, but you can probably find it as readily as I could with a Google search or two.  --Prestidigitator (talk) 04:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Use Javascript on this one. Have an "OK" button that launches the script, and have the script get the contents of the text box and pass it as part of a new URL string. In fact, google found me this, which is basically the code you need, just with a slight modification. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 04:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thank you both! -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 17:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Firefox downloads
When I download some items (not all) Firefox comes up with this “helpful” set of messages:  ...(the download) could not be opened, because the associated helper application does not exist. Change the association in your preferences. (Hard to do since the app “does not exist"!). I select preferences and get the following: EITHER   Show me a preview and ask which Feed Reader to use OR Choose Application. But I can download the same item in Safari, never a problem... help!!86.194.122.72 (talk) 08:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)DT


 * It is probably because you did not select what app Firefox should use to open the download. Go to Preferences --> File Types --> Manage. When the Download Actions dialog comes up, is there anything listed? Rilak (talk) 10:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks for the pointer. When I found the actions box I discovered that .dmg file had been entered twice. Once with no instruction. Again with Save enabled. So I made the other Save also, and the download was accepted. Wonder how .dmg came to be there twice ? Oh well. Now I have a problem with Thunderbird, but that's another question.86.197.150.145 (talk) 12:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)DT


 * .dmg could be there twice because two apps share the same extension. It happens on my Windows XP box quite often, especially with .dat files. As for Thunderbird, what might the problem be? Rilak (talk) 06:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Movies in PowerPoint
OK, here's one.

When I try to play a movie in a PowerPoint slide, it seems to work fine if the movie is a very short one. But where the length of the movie approaches about a minute, it often freezes at a certain point. Waiting for it to move on doesn't help - so far as I can tell it never does. Pressing the space bar takes me on to the next slide, as normal.

These are just home movie clips made by me on my digital camera, and they play perfectly well in RealPlayer and Windows Media Player.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why this is happening? Could it be a memory issue? If yes, would it help if I reduced the quality of the clip in order to reduce its file size (like you can with a .jpeg)? If so, how do I actually do that? The software that came with the camera is great at manipulating images, but doesn't seem to have any movie-editing features. AndyJones (talk) 12:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * My guess would be it's running out of memory. You could try pulling up the task manager and have it sort by the memory usage column, and see if it climbs very quickly when the movie plays. Reducing its size and/or quality would indeed work; your camera might have an option for taking video at a lower resolution. If not, depending on the format, you may be able to put it in a Windows Movie Maker project and save it at a lower size and frame rate. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 22:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Yes, I think you're right. Reducing the file size seemed to do the trick. AndyJones (talk) 20:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Memory test in/for PowerPC (Mac OS X)
The missus' computer froze today, utterly. This had never happened before. Since it got new RAM just a couple of weeks ago, that's the first suspect.

I disconnected the computer from the mains, pulled out its battery, waited a few seconds, stuck the battery back in, and turned it on again. It went "BONG!" I suppose thereby announcing that it had passed its POST, but before Mac OS 10.3.9 started up I didn't see any of the handy little messages you get with other "architectures" inviting you to press this or that key to get into the BIOS and thence perhaps to some useful options like a RAM check. And when OS X was up and ready, I couldn't see anything looking like a memory checker.

Is there a recommendable RAM checker around? (Preferably one costing nothing, of course.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Our article about Open Firmware will tell you how to get into your Mac's boot ROM. Meanwhile TechTool is pretty much the standard Mac diagnostic package and definitely includes a RAM test,.


 * Atlant (talk) 14:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, 1 or F1. I'll try it. Meanwhile, TechTool (i) asks me Why throw away your money on a multitude of utilities that force you to learn different interfaces and deal with a variety of companies and/or different products? Micromat gives you everything you need in one box–for far less money. (which sounds like "office suite" ideology; ugh) and (ii) implies that it costs money but doesn't say how much. I've done some googling; memtest sounds more my kind of software. Tomorrow, tomorrow. -- Hoary (talk) 14:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Website inaccessible
Hello people, I wonder if you could help me... I have a website, but now I can't access it from it's URL, only from the IP (I'm glad I asked for a Static IP!) The website is: http://hacktolive.org/ and It's IP is: http://82.102.6.75/ Now I just wanted to ask if you could try both links and tell me if they work or not, and if possbile, tell me your country (might help troubleshoot things...) I think it is related to DNS, and will talk to my webhosting service, but I just wanted to be sure of it's status for other people in other places of the world... Thanks in advance for any possible help... 87.196.165.142 (talk) 13:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I used a web based nslookup, and only got your nameserver info. It looks like your hosting service has not made the IP/domain association yet, or else it hasn't had time to propagate.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  13:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You know, the strange thing is that it has been online for over a week now, with no problems... it's better just talk to my web hosting company... thanks anyway ;) 87.196.165.142 (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * They just told me to wait a few hours... at least it is fine now :) (I'm the same guy! with other IP...) 87.196.224.194 (talk) 17:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's working now. Well, based on the nslookup anyway.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  20:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It i working in the US. Kushal (talk) 21:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Disadvantages of the iPhone
Tell any disadvantage that iPhone has .. like huge size and difficult keyboard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.138.196 (talk) 13:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The article on iPhone is brimming with problems: soldered in battery, proprietary headphone jack, etc. -- Hoary (talk) 13:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The new iPhone uses a standard headphone jack. But I'm sure millions will still hate the iPhone "just cause" while more millions buy one. Please keep in mind the prohibition against "rants" on the Reference Desk.


 * Atlant (talk) 14:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Not a rant, or anyway not intended as one. I just skimread the article and saw lots of things that would be disadvantageous to some people. Whether they're disadvantageous to the person who asked depends on his or her priorities (as pointed out by Kainaw immediately below). What the article doesn't seem to explain is audio formats. Proprietary only? If so, that would seriously irritate me IFF I were interested in playing audio. (Actually it wouldn't irritate me at all as I never want to play audio on the [Casio] phone that I do possess; indeed, I neither know nor care what format it supports.) And of course there are plenty of people who'd happily go along with the proprietary format (if it is proprietary). - Hoary (talk) 02:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There were a lot of reasons why the original iPhone was (IMHO) an overpriced POS. No 3G support, 2 year contract without any apparent subsidies of the phone, simlock, iTunes, difficult to replace battery, no support for Flash or Java, no support for Stereo bluetooh headsets, no support for MMS, copy/cut/paste, no support for delivery reports, no original support for multiple recipient SMS, no support for video recording, very late release of the SDK (ao that 3rd party apps could be developed particularly given the lack of Java support) combined with a propriety API for writing software, the need to pay an additional fee to use music you purchased as a ringtone, no support for standard file transfer protocols, no support for laptop tethering...... I got all of these from the iPhone article more or less. The more I read it, the more I wonder why on earth anyone would want to purchase an overpriced POS which lacks many features available on my 2.5 year old (as most of those features I mentioned are) and resonably cheap non-smart phone let any decent smart phone available nowdays. But perhaps some people prefer a phone that is popular rather then a phone that is useful Nil Einne (talk) 08:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Define "disadvantage". Someone may consider a huge size to be an advantage.  Someone else may consider a difficult keyboard to be an advantage.  To get factual information, you need to refine your question.  As it is, you are asking for opinions, not facts.  This is not a message board or discussion forum for opinions.  It is a reference desk. --  k a i n a w &trade; 14:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Size and keyboard comfort for these sorts of gadgets tend to be inversely proportional, so complaining about both is kind of like saying "the food here is terrible, and such small portions!". --Sean 14:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You could make both claims for a multi-purpose device for the iPhone, so long as you were clear that you were more or less arguing against the very idea of a multipurpose device. (ie: The N-Gage is too bulky and awkward to be a decent phone, but the controls are cramped and uncomfortable when used as a gaming system.) APL (talk) 01:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Selecting a video card
I am currently shopping for a PCI Express video card which will be installed in a PC used primarily to edit photos and videos (not professionally, the usual amateur stuff, although on a larger scale). There are quite a few video cards in my price range, but, not having shopped for a video card for about four years now, I am not so sure which features I need, and which can be safely downplayed. Could someone explain which combination would work the best for my purposes: 512Mb/128bit/DDR3, 1Gb/128bit/DDR2, 512Mb/256bit/DDR3, or 384Mb/192bit/DDR3 (and why)? In other word, should I be focusing on the memory type (DDR2 vs. DDR3), memory amount, or bittage? Also, what chipset would work better for me: nVidia or ATI? Thanks!--204.193.68.21 (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Of those options, I'd go for the 512MB/256 bit/DDR3. Useight (talk) 18:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! But can you explain why and what influenced your decision?  I guess I'd like not only to buy a suitable video card, but also educate myself a bit :)--204.193.68.21 (talk) 18:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Lately, nVidia is getting better reviews from the free software community than ATI is. I think you should give that a look if you are into free software. Kushal (talk) 22:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're not going to be playing games or doing 3D computer graphics, almost every video card out there is fast enough.
 * If you're running WinXP and aren't planning on upgrading to Vista, go with whatever's cheapest.
 * If you're running Vista or are planning on upgrading, you'll want a more powerful card: any current ATI or nVidia card should do.
 * If you're running Linux, you've got a choice: nVidia's got the best drivers now, but ATI open-sourced their card specifications recently, and they're likely to have the best drivers in a year or so.
 * --Carnildo (talk) 22:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Question (not the original poster) - in terms of acceleration of photo editing/video editing - do video cards help with this - ie is there some direct x command involved in general photo/video editing that can offload the work onto the card - and is this workload sufficiently accelerated to make it worthwhile getting a 'better' card..?87.102.86.73 (talk) 23:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not that I'm aware of. Basic 2D acceleration (moving/scaling/rotating bitmaps) is helpful, but it's also present in every graphics card made in the past decade.  Pixel shaders could be used to speed up most filters, but I'm not aware of any program that does this, and the slowest filters (noise reduction, inpainting, and the like) are not easy to convert to shaders. --Carnildo (talk) 22:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There are some filters which use the shaders of your card to speed up some video editing operations. Deinterlacing is common and there is at least one resonably good denoise filter I'm aware of FFT3DGPU Nil Einne (talk) 07:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you are running a 32 bit operating system, like the normal version of XP or Vista, it is best not to use the biggest memory video cards as you will deplete your virtual memory to support it. When editing lots of photos it is important to have plenty of memory available on your computer. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 32 bit is 4GB - and the graphics cards have their own memory (up to 1GB?) that leaves 3GB addressable (if they are sharing the same 32bit address space) - surely most people won't have 3GB plugged in anyway? please clarify if possible..87.102.86.73 (talk) 23:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This might be a bit technical, but what it's basically saying is that Windows splits up the max of 4GB (for 32bit versions) into 2GB for the kernel and 2GB for applications. So all your applications together only get a maximum of 2GB of memory to use. If your video card takes 1GB, that only leaves your applications with 1GB. However, I don't know whether the graphics card memory gets mapped into kernel space or user space, or something else entirely. Indeterminate (talk) 03:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have 3GB RAM, but that's not very common. My video card has 512MB. I guess I'm approaching the limit of 32-bit. Useight (talk) 04:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

How to make a div translucent?
Hi all (again). I was wondering how, with html/javascript I could make a div translucent. After hours of google searching, all I was able to find was how to make one div translucent over another div. No, what I want is a way to make a div translucent over the background image, so that part of its pattern (but not enough of its color to screw up the text) gets through.

And yes, I did find a way -- by downloading my background image, making the section covered by the div translucent, then making the div have no background color -- but as my website has a large number of background images, that kind of thing would take FOREVER.

Much help greatly appreciated ! -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand how you're implementing transparency; this talk of background images sounds like hard work. Most recent browsers support either the standard opacity style or some pre-standard ones - see http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-43068.html For example:

this is another div this is another div this is another div<  this is a translucent div
 * Hope this helps. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That's exactly what I need (with a bit of tweaking, of course!), thank you! -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 04:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

In view of the circumstances, it's entirely understandable that Finlay is using inline style specifications. No criticism there. In reality you can of course move this stuff elsewhere, probably to an external stylesheet. The result would be a lot easier to read and (if you reused it elsewhere on your site) to maintain. Anyway, the good news is that you don't need Javascript. Though experience tells me that MSIE tends to make a dog's dinner of any interesting CSS, so I often use the comment-visible-only-to-MSIE kludge to link to an alternative, MSIE-specific stylesheet that neatly undoes all my good work. (I don't know offhand how MSIE would handle this.) -- Hoary (talk) 03:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to the rest of you as well. I currently have what I need from finlay's examples, but if I run into trouble I'll be sure to reread what the rest of you wrote as well. Thanks! -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 04:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: Can someone please tell me why my text-submit script won't work now? When I take the translucency off, the script works, but when it's on, the 'submit' clicks do nothing. Both are essential to my webpage, so again, much help appreciated.


 * Um, not knowing how you've set up the submit button is set up, or how it might interact with the above, makes it near impossible for us to tell what is going wrong. My guess is that you've put it behind a transparent DIV and so when you click on it, you're really clicking on the DIV. There are work-arounds, like putting it under the DIV (adjusting it or the DIVs "z-order") or defining a corresponding hot spot on top of the DIV that triggers the submit button upon clicking (using Javascript). But again, I've no idea how you set up your page. --74.223.170.182 (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah sorry, just a bit frustrated, that's all. Here's a link to the test site with a bit of further info: http://www.geocities.com/motley_pea/Pivot-of-eons/index.htm Thanks for the fast response! -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 05:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

God, of all the stupid things to miss, I forgot to end the div style=" with another quotation mark. Everything works perfectly now, and hopefully I won't make this very stupid mistake again. Thanks everyone (again) -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 21:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

ATI Catalyst and Anisotropic Filtering
What do Catalyst A.I. and Mipmap detail level do? I've googled, but most don't go into much detail about quality and performance. For mipmaps, will it still affect me if I have 16x anisotropic filtering on?

Also, is AF really that intensive? From most articles, they make it sould like it uses a whole lot of power compared to trilinear or bilinear, but for modern graphics cards (even lower end ones), it seems that they can handle 16x AF quite easily. 24.6.46.92 (talk) 21:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

MPEG-2 joining only
Is there a software (at least one of MS Windows XP, Mac OS X Tiger, or Ubuntu 8.04 compatible please!) that will allow me to join into a single file without much quality degradation (hopefully losslessly) a few hundred of MPEG-2 files created on a Sony HandyCam? Thanks Kushal (talk) 22:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Any takers? Kushal (talk) 15:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * VirtualDubMod Jessica  N10248  15:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I should note that VirtualDubMod will only work if the MPEG-2 files are of the same aspect ratio and bitrate. Jessica  N10248  19:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC) Hi. The MPEG format is lossy, so I imagine that you will lose quality when you join the videos, since you will have to render them into a new video. There is a freeware program for this purpose that you can download here. I use Premiere for editing, and that can certainly do the job, too. It runs in Windows and OS X. You'd click on File --> Import and move to folder with the movies, then select Import Folder. Then, you'd shift-select the movies inside the Bin and drag them into the Timeline. Then, you'd go to File --> Export --> Adobe Media Encoder.--Hello. I&#39;m new here, but I&#39;m sure I can help out. (talk) 16:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It is possible to cut a MPEG2 file with minimal loss but joining multiple MPEG is AFAIK much more difficult. Is there any particular reason you need to join these files as opposed to creating some sort of DVD or simply creating a playlist? Nil Einne (talk) 07:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I am using DeVeDe on Ubuntu to create a dvd video out of these files. DeVeDe, for some reasons, does not allow me to do Ctrl + A or select multiple items at once. I have to add each [short] clip through a multitude of clicks. I would rather have a single file to add. :( Is there another [free/free of cost] alternative that will allow me to create a DVD video with multiple files at once AND is as stable as DeVeDe? Thanks. Kushal (talk) 03:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)