Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2009 May 18

= May 18 =

Printing separate/different files
So at work, I have to print the same two worksheets every day. They are Microsoft Excel files and one is read-only while the other is not, so I can't combine the two files or anything. I always gotta print them on two separate sheets of paper. Any one know if it's possbible to print two separate files onto one page? TravisAF (talk) 02:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If the other file is not read-only, can't you copy and paste the content of the first page into that file? Nimur (talk) 02:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

They're heavily modified files with all sorts of tables and borders and etc. Everytime I try copy and pasting, it distorts everything in both files. TravisAF (talk) 03:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't copy and paste. Use Paste, Special and choose the options for pasting Formatting and Values. Your borders etc will transfer correctly, and any formulas on the page will be transcribed into the current value, not pasted as the formula (which of course would refer to different cells in the new location).
 * If that fails, mark the print area in Page One, and reduce the scale if necessary, to make it fit half a sheet of paper. This will be the top half of your print-out. Page Two set up with half a page of blank cells above it,included in the Print Area. Feed the used paper back into the printer, and Page Two will print below the Page One material.  To avoid the Page Two spacer over-writing the Page One stuff with gridlines, turn off gridlines in Printing Setup. If you need gridlines  showing between the tables, set the thinnest black or grey border around those cells.KoolerStill (talk) 11:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Or get yourself a PDF printer like PDFCreator, print both files to the same PDF (which will then be 2 pages), then print the PDF with a "2-up" setting that prints two pages on the same sheet of paper. I'm no guru at scripting, but I'd make a VBA script that opens one Excel file, prints it to PDF, closes it, opens the other, prints to PDF, closes it. Then I'd hope that my pdf print software supported command line, and make a .bat file that first combines the two PDF files into one, then prints them. That makes for 2 clicks each day (first VBA script, then bat file) but still quite automated. You could rescale the Excel files so that they look neat when they occupy half a sheet of paper each (possibly scaling up font sizes, etc). Jørgen (talk) 13:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Or copy the area you want to print from each spreadsheet and paste them as pictures into a Word document. Enhanced metafile format works well in my experience - it produces readable images over a generous range of re-sizing. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Is the objective to print both on one sheet to save paper, or to print one spreadsheet on top of the other (like a printed form), or to simply reduce the clicks needed?
 * To print both with one click, select both in Windows Explorer then right-click and pick "Print". Excel will open twice and each will be printed in turn. To print one on top of the other, put the first printed sheet back into the paper tray. To save paper, turn the paper over before putting it back in the paper tray.  If you want either of these last two to be done with no manual intervention, you will need to look at the many suggestions provided by the others above.  Astronaut (talk) 18:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Website causing internet to appear to disconnect
Whenever I visit xtube.com (so far the only site that causes this problem), my internet connection appears to completely drop. I get logged out of my messenger programs, downloads cease, and I can't open any new webpages for roughly a minute after I try to load that site. But internet only stops on my computer, and not the others on the network. I stopped going there several months ago when this started happening, but I just got the urge to visit it again and the problem still occurs. Other people I have asked don't have any problems. Anyone know why this would happen? 74.230.240.144 (talk) 03:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That type of video site used to, in dial-up days, disconnect you and switch you to a premium rate service, which you'd find out about on your next phone bill. Now this doesn't apply, there may be associated viruses hogging your bandwidth to send data back to their home base. Or it could be redirecting you for fake clicks on numerous pay-by-click sites. How does you machine stack up (OS, RAM) with those that don't get the problem? Do a virus and spyware check on your machine before you use the site again.KoolerStill (talk) 10:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My first assumption was also spyware, but scans have always come up empty. Unless the program is so obscure that major anti-malware programs don't pick up on it, I don't think that's the cause. My OS, RAM, and bandwidth are similar to others who don't have the problem, so I doubt that's an issue either. 74.230.240.144 (talk) 00:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Good gaming mouse that work on glass?
What is a good gaming mouse that will work on a glass surface (smooth top and frosted underside)? I have a glass desktop and have been thinking of getting a new mouse. I've tried one of the Logitech G-series (forgot which) which didn't work, and I'm quite clueless on gaming mice in general; so any help would be appreciated. Wireless would be a plus (less of a mess on my desk) but not essential. --antilivedT 04:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

A laser mouse like a Logitech G5 might work but you should just save the bother and get yourself a mousemat. The problem is all gaming mice now use LED or lasers to read movement, and they don't work well on seethrough or reflective surfaces, so a mousemat is your best option. 212.219.8.233 (talk) 09:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Boy - if you had to pick a maximally mouse-hostile surface, glass would be it! Optical mice work by pointing a tiny camera down at the desk and tracking how the picture it sees moves as you move the mouse.  But the focal length of the lens is very carefully set - and the glass will screw that up for sure - it's also too uniform to have an image the mouse can track.  The alternative is a clunky old mechanical mouse - but those don't grip worth a damn on super smooth surfaces like glass.  So either way, you're going to need a mouse mat - and at that point, any mouse should do.  I guess you could try a trackball - some people love them - but many can't stand them...it's a matter of opinion. SteveBaker (talk) 03:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I personally use a Logitech Trackball. This type of mouse works on any surface, It will even work with a complete lack of surfaces. It does take a little time to get use to it, and some people never realy do get use to it. Some will say that trackballs are not gaming mice, let alone FPS mouse. As i said, its not for a everyone. I hope this helps. – Elliott (Talk|Cont)   15:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've flipped the glass over now and use the frosted side as top instead. It was too rough but then I covered it with transparent book cover film and now it's like having a giant icemat! That opens up a lot more options... --antilivedT 05:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Two questions in one
1. I'm switching my anti-virus software. I'm torn between G-Data, Avira, Kaspersky and Symantec. Which one would you recommend? 2. I'm also buying some new headphones. I've found a few selections to my liking and I would also like an opinion on these: 1, 2 and 3. I know these have customer reviews, which I've read, but last year I bought a pair of $50 Sony headphones that went out on me after only a few months, so this time I don't want to get screwed over again. Wh ip it ! Now whip it good! 05:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "The reference desk does not answer requests for opinions" TravisAF (talk) 05:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Or predictions about future events. Do not start a debate; please seek an internet forum instead." The "no request for opinions" has mainly to do with polarizing questions that are completely subjective, to which no factual answers can be given. Asking for an opinion on the quality of a product is an entirely different story. Wh ip it !  Now whip it good! 06:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Of the anti-virus products you list, I only have experience with Symantec, which I found to be a resource hog and difficult to remove from my machine once I had decided in favour of other anti-virus software.


 * I now use Bit-defender, which is far from perfect (among other things the firewall conflicts with my network card), but my machine is more responsive than before I switched. --ChrisSteinbach (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC).


 * (ec) And it's not legal or medical advice being sought. Anyway; Whipit - I can't offer any suggestions on the headphones, but I'll take a stab at the AV one.  Looking over the Feb. 09 results at .av-comparatives.org I'd probably opt for the Kaspersky (of the ones you've mentioned).  I see that G-Data also rates very high, but I haven't tried it so I'm not familiar with it.  I wasn't happy with Avira (just a personal observation, nothing wrong with the product), and Symantec is only now getting back up to the upper-ranks with its 2009 improvements.   Kaspersky has been around, and a top-notch AV proggie for a while, and if I didn't have Nod32, I'd prolly be running it.  Of course, the decision ultimately is yours; have a look at some of the reviews and comparatives - then just grab what you like best. ;) — Ched :  ?  06:59, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you experienced with operating system internals? If you are, I would recommend that you use HIPS software instead of AV software (try the free COMODO Internet Security, which includes an AV as well as a firewall and HIPS). I personally can't stand the fact that AV software has to scan everything you try to use, which slows down your computer considerably. Most AV software is very bad at self-protection as well - see the Matousec leaktest results. --wj32 t/c 08:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Exploiting Google Safesearch
Suppose, a program does a google image search with Safesearch on, and another search with the same query, but with safesearch off. Now it finds the intersection of the images found and subtracts them from the second set, and voila! You have your own porn search engine, thanks to Google! Can this really ever work ? And if it does, isn't it some sort of a concern? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.80.114 (talk) 10:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What a lot of trouble to go to. Leave Safesearch off and just type p o r n (without the spaces). Optionally add 'online', 'free', 'images' or 'video'. Optionally be more specific. Click GO. That's it, your own porn search engine. KoolerStill (talk) 11:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The exposure (no pun intended) is that you could potentially infer the exact requirements to fall into the 'safesearch filtered' category, and then possibly use that to keep your images showing up in all results. If that's any use to you.  --66.195.232.121 (talk) 12:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Presumably you tried this yourself, already. What occurred?  Tempshill (talk) 15:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Why would it be a concern? SafeSearch exists to keep material you might not want to see away from your eyes. It can generally be disabled with a few simple clicks of a button. Its purpose is not to make it impossible to view porn, but to make it more unlikely that you view porn by accident. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 18:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

MySQL table creation
Is there an easy way to automatically generate the "CREATE TABLE ..." SQL command from an existing table? -- Toytoy (talk) 10:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I got it!


 * SHOW CREATE TABLE tblname; -- Toytoy (talk) 11:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL. Wonderful how putting a problem into writing helps point you in the right direction. Good luck with it.KoolerStill (talk) 11:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

An idle wondering...
Totally random question that I've been kinda curious about for a while now: what's the default size for the TTL on an IP packet sent from a personal computer (Windows, Linux or Mac)? It's an octet, so the max size is 256, right? Is it set to that? Is there any guidance from an RFC or something? 90.237.196.83 (talk) 12:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 128 seems pretty typical, but you are right that the max is 256. RFC 791 explains the function of the field but does not set an explicit starting value. --66.195.232.121 (talk) 12:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's rather inconcievable that you'd need to make more than 128 hops if everything was working like it should. Thanks! 90.237.196.83 (talk) 13:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * TTL is even more esoteric than that. It's actually intended to represent the number of hops or the number of seconds since creation (whichever is greater, basically a hop counts as no less than one second.)  So the original intention was that a packet would be killed off after either 255 hops or 255 *seconds* spent being routed, whichever came first.  Considering how long it's been since a packet (around 1400 bytes) could traverse the global network from one side of the planet to the other multiple times in one second, it just baffles my mind that at one point we thought to ourselves "so, how about giving the packet over 4 minutes to find it's way to the destination..."--66.195.232.121 (talk) 16:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Store and forward over a congested overseas link, or from a spotty connection in the middle of nowhere, or over a satellite uplink, can add appreciable amounts of time. Granted, even then 4 minutes is probably a long time to wait for a connection, but a 15-30 seconds latency may not be unheard of. Once you've assigned a full byte for the purpose, there's no reason to arbitrarily limit the max value. -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 18:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Depending on the OS it will vary, but if memory serves, Windows machines use 128, and hop in some predictable pattern. Linux uses some other starter an hops in a linear, but non-sequential fashion. Open BSD, for instances, uses a random start and random pattern (maybe)?). Shadowjams (talk) 09:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Open-source alternatives
I am trying to find open-source programs for following tasks:


 * simulate optical components
 * simulate fluid flow
 * speech recognition

Normally, I am quite satisfied with open-source alternatives and regard them usually as superior. There are just a couple of fields where I can't find an alternative.--Mr.K. (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you see POV-Ray? It's an open-source ray tracing program. You really need to be more specific about what you are looking for - you have mentioned three huge fields, and there are certainly open-source programs in all of them - but what exactly is it that you're trying to do?  Nimur (talk) 14:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. I need speech recognition to dictate texts. The other two are only out of curiosity. I would like to know how different sets of lenses work and also how the aerodynamic of different virtual car/plane or whatever works.--Mr.K. (talk) 15:09, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you looked at our article? Several open-source items are listed there for voice dictation and control.  Nimur (talk) 15:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) http://www.osalt.com/ seems to be a good website. – Elliott (Talk|Cont)   15:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Osalt is amazing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 15:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There are some open-source programs for speech recognition, however, how realistic is it to use them in a office environment (that means, if you want to really work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 15:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I would assume that by "simulate optical components", Mr. K is looking for something like Zemax or CODE V, which you could use to (say) design a zoom lens for a camera and accurately predict its optical performance. POV-Ray isn't really suitable for that job... even if it knows something about refraction and reflection, it would be like using Adobe Illustrator instead of AutoCAD to design a jet engine.  You could sorta, kinda, imagine doing it, but only as a painful exercise... -- Coneslayer (talk) 18:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly, but these two are not open-source. Could it be that there is no open-source equivalent?--Mr.K. (talk) 11:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Not that I know of. When I was in grad school, we mostly ran on open source, but we bought those two.  I'd love to be proven wrong.  -- Coneslayer (talk) 17:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Change the default view for 'file open' dialogue box
When I am working I usually am interested in opening the most recently edited files which is easy if I need one of the files listed at the bottom of the "File" menu but otherwise a pain. I hit ctrl-O to get the dialogue box, change the view to "Details" from "List", then click twice on "Date Modified" to get the most recent files at the top. You can call me lazy if you like, but I hate going through the above every time I open a file.

I am running windows xp sp3 if that helps. misli h  18:02, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I hardly ever use the "Open" command anyway, I generally select the files by double-clicking on them (or dragging them into the application from) Explorer. All that tends to take is Alt-Tab to get me to the Explorer window, and with that one, I don't need to change the view settings every time I use it. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 18:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess it is impossible to do what I want to do, sad.  misli  h  14:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Selling Old Computer - Value and best way to clean it up?
Hello all. I realize that Ref Desk is not the place to ask opinion-based questions, so I may be splitting hairs here...

I'm going to attempt to build a computer (my first build) and if all goes well, I plan on selling my old computer. Two questions: 1. what's it "worth" and 2. what's the best way to clean up the hard drive so someone does not recover/steal my personal info/files.

Machine: Dell Dimension 8400 purchased new in 2005. Works like a charm, not a thing wrong with it, I just want to try to build my own machine.

Comp Has:
 * 3.0 GHz Pentium 4 with Hyper Threading Technology
 * Windows XP Pro Media Center Edition
 * 2 Gigs of PC 5200 RAM
 * Nvidia 6800 256 MB Video Card DVI/VGA and a TV Tuner
 * 120 Gigs harddrive
 * CD/DVD RW drive
 * Floppy Drive
 * 8 USB ports
 * Comes with a 15 inch LCD monitor, and standard keyboard/mouse set
 * I would keep Office 2007 installed

I see there is an auction for a similar 8400 on eBay that just ended at $202. However, that computer did not have a separate video processing card or a TV turner card. I was thinking about just putting $250 on it and seeing what happens, but I'd appreciate any advice.

I would try to sell this on eBay, Craig's List or through the local paper - whichever will yield the highest amount.

I want to ensure my files are completely gone. I was thinking about using the File Shredder program bundled with Spybot Search and Destroy. Any ideas?

Thanks for the time! :) Rangermike (talk) 19:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * File Shredder should do the job. As for the computer, I would not be surprised if you could do better by breaking it into component parts. The monitor itself could probably fetch you $80. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Why get rid of it at all? You could keep it and use it as a second machine, a media server (with another hard drive), a tool to mess around with Linux, etc.  You could give it to your parents, your kids, your grandparents, or you could give it to a charity.  As for wiping your data, there are plenty of commercial and free disk cleaners and some reasonable suggestions in this previous discussion.  Astronaut (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Here is the same link, but should remain useful even after the post drops off this page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.172.159.131 (talk) 20:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * File shredders are nice, but if you want to make sure you've eliminated ALL your personal data - I'd format, and re-install the OS. Just to be on the safe side IMHO. — Ched :  ?  20:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't trust file shredders. I'm sure they have good intentions, but secure file shredding is an unsolvable problem because files can be relocated, leaving bits of themselves behind, and the filesystem doesn't keep track of all the places the file used to be. Shredding free space (after deleting all sensitive files in the ordinary way) works in principle but is very difficult to get right in practice. I don't think it can be done at all on a mounted volume while Windows is running because the filesystem drivers don't provide the necessary support. And all of these techniques will fail if you overlook a sensitive file. The only way to be sure is to shred the whole drive, and the easiest way to do that is using TrueCrypt. After doing that you would have to reinstall Windows and Office if you wanted those to be available for the buyer. If you want to shred files or free space on a regular basis without reinstalling everything every time, SDelete is probably as good as it gets. -- BenRG (talk) 20:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, really, it depends on the data. We're not talking about nuclear design codes here, I imagine, just old homework and the like. A file shredder is better than just deleting it. Whether it is better than nuking the whole thing, well, probably depends on how important the data is. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate all the suggestions and thoughts on cleaning it up. I was planning on selling the machine and using the proceeds to purchase the components for my new build. But astronaut got me thinking ... maybe I'll use it to tinker around with Linux or some of the other open source OS out there. I've never used any other OS other than Windows. Now is a good time to learn/try something new. Thx! Rangermike (talk) 20:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, really. Or re-reconsider. Assembling your own computer these days, when you already have a perfectly good computer is less reinventing the wheel than paying handsomely for the unexciting "privilege" of removing a wheel from your car and bolding it back on. I mean, these days most of what you need is anyway on the motherboard, and the stuff you want that isn't is attached via unambiguous cables. (It's ages since I bothered with a floppy drive but I think that you can actually misattach it. Whereupon no mushroom cloud will arise; the FDD simply won't work.) Now, if you want to be adventurous you'll get some ancient monster paperback on how to assemble computers and dig around for an old case, an old motherboard, and some funky old stuff to attach to it. Don't forget such essentials as an I/O card (for RS232C and Centronics). The SCSI card may or may not work with your full-height DDS backup drive and the rest even after you've set the DIPs for the right ID numbers. My favorite item is the Hercules Graphics Card Plus; this works like a charm with either XyWrite or Sprint. I wouldn't skimp on memory: go for all of 2MB, and good luck accessing what's above 640kB! &para; Alternatively, realize that you have a perfectly good computer already, one that's probably got (or can easily be given) bags of space for an additional OS. For which I'd recommend this advice (despite its title, not Ubuntu-specific). -- Hoary (talk) 03:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with this, in part because old computers just aren't worth much. Your monitor will still be worth something for awhile because an LCD screen, even a small one (or especially a small one—not everyone wants giant ones!) will work basically the same three, five, however years later. Having an extra machine around can be quite useful if you do any sort of programming—I have a Dell from 1999 that I keep around to every once in awhile use for batch work (e.g. running OCR on a slew of files—something I can let running for days if need be). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 03:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

What happened to my Internet?
The information about my computer is somewhere in the history of my computing reference desk questions.

In short, it's an HP with Vista.

Friday, I couldn't get the circle to stop rotating. The lights on the modem didn't indicate a problem. I finally got the screen saying either I couldn't get to the site or I wasn't connected to the Internet. It had a place to click to "diagnose connection problems" and for one site where I was, doing that said that the site had a problem. There was a place to click to "repair" and I was able to go back to that site.

I was also able to go to Wikipedia. At first, I thought it was because the pages were in my history, though some of them didn't come up after CTRL-H even though I had been to them. Then I was able to go to other pages I hadn't gone to.

But on two other web sites, all I could get was the circle rotating and rotating. This wasn't just a Yahoo problem because it was happening to two sites. I couldn't get into my Yahoo email. I couldn't send the email that was on the screen. I saved it, signed in to another email account, and sent it. Then I turned off the computer. When I turned it back on, both sites were working again. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 21:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Rebooting is often the simplest way to solve networking trouble in Vista, as they've managed to move the networking information behind two or three additional screens when compared to XP's Control Panel. You may want to try launching a command prompt next time it happens and type ipconfig /flushdns to clear out any possible DNS resolution issues, and consider installing another browser such as Mozilla Firefox to isolate whether it's a general networking problem, or something specific to Internet Explorer. Coreycubed (talk) 21:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I like Internet Explorer and don't want to consider Firefox. I go to a library where I have to use Firefox and that's just a nightmare.


 * I have instructions written down for how to get to "ipconfig" or "flushdns" but I don't have the problem right now. I'm in the process of searching for the specifics of my computer. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 16:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are the details of my computer. I keep a link to how someone told me to search for my Help Desk questions, and substituting what appears in the URL when you search the Computing Reference Desk archives in the URL I was told to use for the Help Desk gives me my Computing Reference Desk questions. I'll keep all three of these. Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 17:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

XPath: Equality match on list-valued attribute
I'm building an application that allows the user to flag elements within HTML documents for subsequent text processing. To future-proof my application, I have chosen to use XPath/XQuery syntax to identify the elements, but instead of incorporating a full implementation of XPath, I am currently hand-rolling support for a handful of forms of XPath rule. One thing I'm hung up on is the correct form of a rule to match one token in a list. At least one version of the HTML standard defines the common  attribute to have value type. As I understand it, this means that the value of a  attribute is a list, tokenized on whitespace. What I want to be able to do is specify an element/attribute/value triple (for the  attribute), e.g.  and have it match an element like: but not one like:

By my reading of one source, I should use: div[contains(@class, "print")] but from another, I should use: div[@class="print"]

I have been scouring the standards, and I can't see that this question is answered explicitly one way or the other, but I think the answer may lie somewhere in the way that the characters are assembled into collation units. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Thanks, Bovlb (talk) 21:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Phone location device/site
I remember hearing about some kind of facility a while back, where you could find out the location of a mobile phone. I seem to recall that you had to send a text message to a certain number so that they had you on their system and then you could go to a website and tap in your number and it told you where that phone was. Anybody know about anything like this?Popcorn II (talk) 21:36, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds a bit like Loopt. Bovlb (talk) 21:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of services that will find the location of a mobile phone. They are usually aimed at worried parents trying to keep their kids away from crime hotspots or hanging around in the park drinking with their mates. The owner of the phone has to consent to this (unless the requesting party is the police/etc.)  That is pretty easy to do if the phone is your's or your kid's and usually involvs relying to a text message.  Accuracy is limited to the location of the nearest phone network antenna (ie. about 500 metres in an urban environment?) and of course the phone has to be switched on. A Google search offers up lots of possibilities.  Astronaut (talk) 14:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)