Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2010 July 23

= July 23 =

Graphical/Visual Programming Languages
Can I have some good, free general purpose graphical/visual programming languages for Windows that are used to develop programs in a fashion similar to the dataflow methodologies of LabVIEW/Lego Robolab or Quartz Composer (even thought Quartz Composer is used to develop animations and the like)? --Melab±1 &#9742; 01:32, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * While I don't think this is really what you are looking for, it's something - Scratch 199.67.140.44 (talk) 12:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a list at visual programming language with a number of free ones. --Sean 15:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

TaskManager
Why does "TaskManager has been disabled by Administrator" happen ? I think it is some virus mischief, and what is the remedy ? Jon Ascton   (talk)  02:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Some files have automatically come up on my harddisk. When I try to delete them I can't. It says "Access Denied. Make sure the files are not write-protected or currently in use ". They are .dll. What should I do ?


 * It's Defense Center problem


 * If someone else administers the computer, that person might have disabled Task Manager. If it's your own computer and you didn't disable Task Manager, it's probably malware. Reference desk/Computing/Viruses has some suggestions. -- BenRG (talk) 04:43, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It could be your system administrator, especially if this is at work or college. However, I've seen this exact message and it was some malware (that turned out to be rootkit based and very difficult to remove).  Other symptoms were redirecting many Google search results to other sites, sometimes pornographic, with a very vague connection to the search term (about 1 in 3 times I would end up somewhere unexpected).  Astronaut (talk) 10:08, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Accessing very lost pages.
How can you access on old page that does not have a cached copy on any search engine and is not on the Wayback Machine? jc iindyysgvxc  (my contributions) 06:53, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably your best bet would be to try an contact the owner of the website, it's likely they will have a backup copy of their site somewhere and could email you the specific page if they're kind 82.43.90.93 (talk) 09:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In many cases you simply cannot. The up-side of internet distribution is that it is incredibly easy to send a page around the world. The down-side is that often there is really only one permanent copy of it from which all distribution is based. The web has a nasty habit of being permanent when you'd rather it was ephemeral; ephemeral when you need it to be permanent. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Electronics for digital watch
I am not sure if I am posting this question in the right place, or even if the Reference Desk will be able to answer it. At the very least, I am hoping to be directed to a better forum for this sort of question.

I have seen many digital watches with very different physical appearance but seemingly identical behavior. To me, this constitutes strong evidence that the electronics in one were simply copied to make the others. Why such a variety (and I have seen a wide variety) of case and display designs for what is inside really the same watch is beyond me.

Let me tell you what I can remember offhand:


 * The watch has stopwatch and alarm. From the time, pressing the "mode" button once gives you the stopwatch, twice gives you alarm set mode, three times gives you time set mode. If you go into stopwatch mode and use the stopwatch, though, pressing "mode" again will give you the time rather than going into alarm set mode. Similarly with alarm set mode: if you use this mode, then pressing "mode" will give you the time again (normal time display, that is) rather than putting you in time set mode.

12 A, 1 A, 2 A, ..., 11 A, 12 P, 1 P, ..., 11 P, 0 H, 1 H, ..., 12 H, 13 H, ..., 23 H, and back to 12 A   ^--- AM hours --^  ^--- PM hours -^  ^--- 24-hour clock ^
 * The watch can be set to 12- or 24- hour mode, but only in this funny way: in time set mode, set the hours. They will cycle thus:
 * The above is, I think, more than anything else, is the defining characteristic of this chip design.


 * The watch has date and day of the week, but no year. The calendar correctly allows for the lengths of the different months, except (I believe) for February of a leap year. (This is not really a defining characteristic, as other watches are often like this.) Besides the alarm, it also has, I believe, hourly chime.

Does this chip design have a name? Why is it so common? (It is really not a good design: too easy to go into time set mode by mistake.) Who invented it and when? (I think it's at least 20 years old now.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.35.97.35 (talk) 07:14, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes the design will have a name (or at least a product code) - chips are saleable to different watch manufacturers - so it's quite likely that different manufacturers bought the chip. I can't identify the chip though.77.86.82.77 (talk) 13:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The question is a little historically obscure - if you don't get an answer here it may be worth contacting one of the many vintage LCD watch sites - these being collectable now there probably are some experts out there on the web.83.100.252.126 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC).


 * Go to your favorite department store, and go to the section with the cheap digital watches. Play with the watches. You will likely find some of these. 75.41.70.185 (talk) 03:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * As to why such a variety of case and display designs ...: it's because a watch is a fashion accessory as well as a timepiece. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

logs
do websites have to keep logs of visitors by law? or can they keep no logs at all —Preceding unsigned comment added by EIPI55563 (talk • contribs) 10:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You might find the Telecommunications data retention article instructive; it talks about data retention by ISPs rather than by websites themselves. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 10:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

File destruction
I am looking for a (hopefully) open-source application that would produce something like Data erasure but only in the physical portion of one file. Tipically, something that produces now in Windows (Vista) what the kill command achieved in the old Norton Utilities package, many years ago. My web search has pointed me onto this site, which is not open-source, for sure. And that awful red color, it makes me wonder... Anyway, any suggestions welcome. Pallida Mors  17:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Eraser 1230049-0012394-C (talk) 18:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's precisely what I was looking for. Thank you for your prompt answer! Pallida Mors  18:18, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Back button difficulties
I asked the question last week so it's in the archives now at on the Computing Reference Desk and  on the Village Pump. I'll find it later.

I have IE8 and Vista.

Sequence of events:

1. Turn on computer, sign in after it boots up, and click on blue e. 2. Click on Yahoo mail button at the top of the screen. 3. Sign in to email. 4. Go to my inbox. 5. Click on pointless email from Facebook, delete it. 6. Click on other pointless email and delete it. 7. Next email contains links. Click on one, opening new window. 8. Click on another, opening window where I am now. 9. Click on third link to very long Wikipedia page. 10. On very long page, click on section link. 11. Click on my contributions link from other page I clicked on. 12. Click on link to Reference desk. 13. Click on link to computing reference desk. 14. Click on link to ask a question, where I am now. 15. Send that question so as to prevent edit conflicts. I'll use a notepad to record the rest and type it here. 16. Edit where I have made errors. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 17:42, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 17. Go back to email, click on inbox. 18. Click on one which contains information I want to post on Wikipedia. 19. Click on "reply" so I can use it as a notepad to record more of my activities and delete what I post.. 20. Go back to my reference desk post, click on first article I intend to edit, which is short and unlikely to cause the problem. 21. Edit that article. 22. Sign in to a site unrelated to Wikipedia for which I clicked on a link. 23. Click on a link within that site. 24. Click on another link within that site. This site doesn't cause problems, so it's unlikely to be contributing to the problem. 25. Saved my Wikipedia edit by mistake, went back to fix it (at some point I clicked twice by mistake and got an edit conflict). 26. Clicked on my contributions, saw that no one had added to the Computing Reference desk. 27. Clicked on one article I added to for which my contribution was not the last (no apparent problem there). 28. Clicked on back ALT-left, worked fine. 29. Clicked on Miscellaneous Reference Desk section to which I contributed. 30. Norton was scheduled to do a scan but couldn't because software is outdated; popup message unlikely to affect anything; new software has been scheduled to do scan an hour later. 31. Clicked on back ALT-left, worked fine. 32. Clicked on history of article I contributed to. 33. Clicked on back ALT-left but forward button disabled this time. 34. Clicked on back ALT-left and was sent to history I just looked at ... well, THIS is interesting. 35. Clicked on back ALT-left and was sent to article I just contributed to. 36. Clicked on back ALT-left and was sent to that article's edit screen--or more precisely, "edit conflict" since somehow I clicked twice. 37. Clicked on back and went to a regular section edit screen. I need to change something anyway. 38. Saved that edit, edited lead section. 39. Clicked on back ALT-left four times, ended up where I was before. 40. I should mention I clicked on links in a site unrelated to Wikipedia, but this probably had no effect on anything. 41. Clicked on back ALT-left again and ended up at the top of the Computing Reference Desk (okay, after checking, that is where I was). 42. Clicked on "Skip to Bottom", lost forward button. 43. Edited to add these developments. I should add that all this will eventually go on Microsoft forums people have suggested. I have made an important discovery in the above list. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 18:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but what actually is your question? I tried looking back in the archives/your contributions to what you might be referring to, but I gave up (someone else might be more successful though) and the link you gave in 10 doesn't have your name anywhere on it (searching for Vchimpanzee). Given the subject and what you've written, are you talking about not being able to use the "Back" browser button in Yahoo which I've seen you bring up many times before? (this from October 2009 is one example). Put simply if you're using the "new" Yahoo mail, the back button doesn't work due to how they've coded the site and there's nothing you can do to change that except switch to "Yahoo Mail Classic" or move to another email provider. Sorry I can't give you a better answer than that. ZX81  talk  18:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This question has been brought up so many times, it's very surprising the OP still has not managed to explain the problem clearly and succinctly. As ZX81 has mentioned, your "back button" may be disabled because the Yahoo Mail is using Javascript to disable it.  Either switch email providers, disable JavaScript, or put up with the "feature."  Nimur (talk) 18:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Adding to my own post (you'd only written up to 16 when I first wrote my reply and got an edit conflict), anytime you click a new link you will always lose all your "forward" history, that's just how it works. Back/forward are a sequence of pages, but they're only valid for moving between themselves. Once you start visiting other pages by clicking anything other than back/forward then you've changed the sequence and the buttons will start to use the new sequence. Hope this is of some help. Sorry if I'm still not understanding your question, but there just doesn't seem to be any sort of question statement anywhere in what you wrote. ZX81  talk  18:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * VChimpanzee: please read Reference desk/How to ask a software question, and rephrase your question. Clearly, your current approach(es) reposting the same problem are not working - we don't know how to answer you, because you have not properly stated your problem.  Nimur (talk) 18:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * 44. Clicked on another article I intend to edit.
 * 45. Edited article.
 * 46. Discovered typo after I already saved edit.
 * 47. Fixed it.
 * 48. Checked to see if Wikipedia had an article on one topic mentioned in my edit; it didn't.
 * 49. Clicked on back ALT-left until I reached the article I edited with the mention of a redirect under the title; I had typed a name which resulted in a redirect, and the last time I clicked the forward button was gone.
 * 50. No, wait. I got an edit screen for the article. I have said before if the forward button disappears, the back button will give me what the forward button would have.
 * 51. Added the new developments. No, this is not Yahoo. They told me it was Javascript and couldn't be fixed. This is Wikipedia and if you look carefully, you'll see the nature of a possible bug in the history function which I discovered because I made this list. One of these days I'll copy this list on a Microsoft forum. Let me go to Deepwater Horizon oil spill now and see if I find the other problem.
 * 53. Edited twice to reformat. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 18:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * VChimpanzee, I really appreciate that you are being meticulous, but this is way too much for us to follow, because you have not told us: At what step did something unexpected occur; what exactly occurred; and what was the behavior that you had thought would occur?  Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm getting to that. Here are the remaining steps.
 * 54. Clicked on my contribution history
 * 55. Clicked on article I contributed to where mine was not the last edit, found nothing wrong
 * 56. Clicked on back ALT-left
 * 57. Clicked on next page of contribution history
 * 58. Found "You have new Messages" and clicked on "last change"
 * 59. Clicked on talk page of person who sent me new message
 * 60. Edited that person's talk page
 * 61. Clicked on link to Deepwater Horizon oil spill
 * 62. Discovered no link to Bonnie and clicked on section edit link for "Short-term efforts"
 * 63. Clicked on preview
 * 64. Discovering red link, clicked on "Tropical Storm Bonnie (2010)" which showed up thanks to Ajax when I typed in the search box
 * 65. Having been redirected, improved the redirect
 * 66. Clicked on back ALT-left until I reached article that I changed redirect to; now that it redirects to a section, forward button has disappeared
 * 67. Norton is scanning but popup is unlikely to cause a problem
 * 68. Clicked on back ALT-left until I reached edit screen for Deepwater Horizon article again, sent
 * 69. Found grammatical problem in same section I didn't like, edited, sent
 * 70. Found a reference problem in the same section, edited, sent
 * 71. Forgot to check entire reference, sent
 * 72. Clicked on history of that article
 * 73. Compared selected versions to see what vandalism had been done
 * 74. Clicked on back ALT-left, repeated step 73 for another edit
 * 75. Clicked on back ALT-left twice, the second time I ended up the computer scrolled down to the section I edited and the forward button disappeared
 * 76. Clicked on back ALT-left several more times but even though the computer scrolled down to the section, the forward button did not disappear
 * 77. Repeated step 76
 * 78. Clicked on back ALT-left again
 * 79. Clicked on back ALT-left again
 * 80. Clicked on back ALT-left again, scrolled down to section, forward button has not disappeared again
 * 81. Clicked on back ALT-left and ended up on the talk page, went to my contributions from there
 * 82. Clicked on page 2 and then continued to work my way back until I found what I was looking for; clicked on back ALT-left several times but forward button disappeared before I had done anything other than click on back
 * 83. Went back to the reference desk and added these final steps. A possible IE8 glitch that I can now report on the Microsoft forums I have been told about took place in #33, #34 and #49 and #50 . In steps #75 and #82 I had the problem I've been trying to get the answer to so many times on the computing referecne desk and when I can figure out how to explain it I can report it on the Microsoft forums,but I've seen this with long emails before IE8. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 19:43, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is it. If anyone can figure out what I should tell the Microsoft forums, I'd appreciate it. But I don't know how to explain it any better than this. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 19:49, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I tried reproducing some of your steps and of course didn't see the forward-history disappear as you sometimes see, as you mentioned - if I understand correctly - in step 33. Certainly this is a situation where directly observing you would be much easier than trying to get a list of steps as above.  A few times you mention the page scrolling down.  Is this as expected, or no?  I keep wondering whether there is something wrong with the keyboard of the library computer you are using; if the computer thinks you're holding down the space bar or the Ctrl key or the Enter key, or many others, then unexpected, inexplicable behavior like this will occur for sure.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * No, I'm at home. And I'm pretty sure I'm not doing anything strange. I am holding down the ALT key and pressing the left arrow when I say I'm clicking on Back. And ALT and right arrow for forward. I fixed some numbers. Somehow I must have made a typo and didn't notice, and I forgot that it takes two steps to completely reproduce the problem. I think I state it's the computer that does the scrolling down when that happens, and that may be important. The steps in #75 and *82 are not specific to IE8 since I've seen the problem at libraries. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 20:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I quit recording my steps, but I clicked on "Back" several times working my way back through the edits here and the forward button disappeared several times. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 20:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * News flash! I saw the problem that Vchimpanzee has been talking about for so long!  Hallelujah!  Using IE8 under XP, I edited WP:SANDBOX, clicked a link to Mamluk, clicked a link to Levant, hit alt-left-arrow, and went to Mamluk as expected, but the Forward button icon turned gray rather than blue, indicating there was no forward-history; then when I went Back (unsure whether it was clicking or alt-left-arrowing) I ended up at Levant!  I'll try to get a better repro history; I failed to reproduce it in 2 subsequent attempts.  Vchimpanzee, this is a wild guess, but I would wager that the problem involves the use of the alt-arrow keys, because the Alt key does other things; maybe you could try clicking the Back and Forward icons for a while instead of the alt-arrow combinations, and see if you see this problem again.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, this is interesting. Maybe all this discussion finally got some results. Thanks. The ALT key solution is just one way to keep me from using the mouse so much. I don't have a lot of room to move around and it's just easier. I bought too small a table and it would mean banging into the keyboard all the time. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 21:10, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I queried the Technical Village Pump asking if Wikipedia's use of AJAX might be interfering with IE8's alt-arrow navigation; this is just a stab at the question; I still don't have a reliable repro case. Vchimpanzee, did you say that you also see this problem sometimes purely within the Yahoo website (without any Wikipedia windows or tabs open) as well?  Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I was told when I asked Yahoo that it's Javascript and it's working the way they intended, which is not logical to me. I should mention if it is using the ALT key that's a habit I won't be breaking. I do it without thinking, just as I don't even think of it at libraries where I can move the mouse freely. although other shortcuts like ALT-S when submitting I gave up when I got a mouse pad, which didn't come with the machine. The table I bought was too rough for the mouse to work well on it, and that's how I got started using the shortcuts.


 * And I have to rejoin the real world now. I actually got very little done today but I've got other things to do that don't involve computers. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 21:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason the back button doesn't work on yahoo mail is because you always stay on the same page, but that page is dynamic, its content is changed using javascript, so it appears like you are going to another page. A good example is Wikipedia's live preview feature: the traditional preview reloads the page with the preview, the live preview gets the preview in the background and inserts it into the page. Yahoo mail does something similar. It is possible to make the back-forward buttons work with this too (gmail does it), but Yahoo's programmers were apparently too lazy to do it. -- Nx  / talk  08:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That part Yahoo told me about. This isn't about that. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 17:19, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't gotten any answers so far from Microsoft's forum. One person said to reinstall IE8. That's not going to happen. The is a minor yet annoying glitch, but reinstallation is too much trouble and could mean more problems. The people on that forum had real problems. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 17:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

torrent
do any other torrent sites beside the pirate bay actually work anymore? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomjohnson357 (talk • contribs) 18:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, loads. Try isohunt.com 82.43.90.93 (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not a matter of "sites" working; it's whether a particular torrent tracker is alive, and also whether and seeders remain on that particular torrent. There are hundreds of millions of active torrents at any given time, and many hundreds of thousands of valid live trackers.  Torrents are by their nature decentralized, so it's impossible to provide a complete list of active ones.  Here's an incomplete list: public trackers.  Websites like PirateBay aggregate lists of trackers, including a subset of trackers that they host on their own servers; but any particular tracker may be alive or dead at any given time.  Nimur (talk) 18:32, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

what are some sites that sill host torrents like the the pirate bay  does? sites like isohunt.com dont anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomjohnson357 (talk • contribs) 18:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, if you look at the isohunt.com, it is pretty clear that they have changed their policy in order to try and comply with US copyright law. The Pirate Bay has notoriously flouted such laws and repeatedly changed jurisdictions as a means to evade them. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding from a quick look at the page and also searches is only US users are affect by the filtering. So use a non US-proxy, even Tor mostly/sometimes (if you end up with filtered results try again in 1 minute), should help you get around any filtering if that concerns you. Note that isohunt has never AFAIK been a tracker (if that's what you mean by 'host torrents') they've always primarily functioned as a search engine for torrents tracked on other sites (although they do have/host a copy of the torrent file, usually with all trackers they're aware of). Even isohunt 'releases' which I believe are only a small minority of what they index don't use isohunt as a tracker AFAIK, they are just things people personally uploaded (and first released?) on isohunt.
 * BTW, beyond the existing the questionable ethics of downloading whatever it is you are downloading that is filtered (although I'm not suggesting their filters are perfect) which perhaps SB will stick a word in; be aware if the US courts (or isohunt themselves) determine the filters are not effective because most Americans are circumventing them they may either punish isohunt more or force the filters for everyone, in other words your risk making things worse for others who don't live in countries that have required such measures.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 05:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

ok, and what are some other sites like The Pirate Bay  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomjohnson357 (talk • contribs) 00:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

whats tor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomjohnson357 (talk • contribs) 19:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It allows a certain degree of anonymity as you browse the world wide web. See Tor (anonymity network) for a fuller treatment. Kushal (talk) 01:24, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Although the primary purpose for Tor here is to get around the filtering. I presume the filtering is by IP so if you get an exit node that isn't in the US you should get the non filtered version. From a quick test, it appears to work (well I don't seem to end up on the lite version and can see things I presume filtered) although I don't live in the US and can't be bothered finding a US proxy so have no idea what it's like for Americans anyway. I should mention it's obviously possible the Isohunt webmasters could choose to filter all Tor exit nodes if they are concerned about Tor being used to circumvent filtering for Americans. Nil Einne (talk) 07:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

IBM
The IBM article states: "The company which became IBM was founded in 1896 as the Tabulating Machine Company by Herman Hollerith, in Broome County, New York (Endicott, New York or Binghamton, New York), where it still maintains very limited operations." I looked at the Tabulating machine article but it gives no indication that the tabulating machine is still used today in "very limited operations". What exactly is meant by this? 82.43.90.93 (talk) 19:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The name of the company used to be "Tabulating Machine Company". It maintains limited operations in Broome County, NY. --  k a i n a w &trade; 19:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * "where" means a place, in this case Broome County, NY. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 19:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * "It" refers to "IBM", which still has (among other things) its payroll processing center in Endicott. "Tabulating Machine Company" no longer exists.  I have disambiguated this detail in the article.  Nimur (talk) 20:27, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Thin Client issue driving me nuts
I'd like to re-use an old PII-333 as thin client. I have a FreeNX server that I would like to connect to. Up to now, I was using the NX client software from "fat" clients (both Linux and Windows) to connect to the server, and this works just fine.

What's driving me nuts, is finding a suitable stripped-down Linux distribution. I've tried PXES, Cult, and ThinStation, neither seem to work the way I want them to work.

What I need is:
 * localization (non-US keyboard layouts)
 * basic LPR printing (I have a functioning LPRng config file that I'd like to re-use)
 * X-server
 * NX client
 * some sort of minimalist window manager for the NX login screen
 * a mechanism that fires up the X-server, window manager and NX login screen right after the boot-up process has finished
 * SSH access so I can log in remotely to change/update files.

If you're not familiar with FreeNX/NX client, just assume "Windows Terminal Server" instead of "FreeNX" and "rdesktop" instead of "NX client", the problem remains the same.

Given the availability of such complex solutions like ThinStation, I'm surprised there's no FAQ for a seemingly simple approach like mine. Or maybe I'm looking in the wrong places? -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2010 (UTC)