Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2010 September 12

= September 12 =

Maximum LUN Size
Hello Everyone! Does anyone here know what is the maximum possible size of a LUN for each of the following protocols? Many thanks. Vickreman.Chettiar 00:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) SCSI/iSCSI
 * 2) Fiber Channel
 * 3) InfiniBand

Shell Script
Other than my one year in computer programming class in high school, I am ignorant about programming, so, please, excuse my misuse of jargon. Can I write a script to visit every verse from this website? One which copies the information and pastes it into a text document, inserts a horizontal line, goes on to the next, and repeats? How would I do this? Thank you. schyler (talk) 02:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes you can unfortunately wikipedia is atheist so wikipedia is unable to assist you with your homework or bible studies.130.56.88.248 (talk) 03:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think Wikipedia takes an official position on the existence or otherwise of supreme beings.   D b f i r s   06:19, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Technically, it's not a difficult feat -- if you're a programmer. You could use a loop in a *nix shell script: lynx | awk >> some_file, but I find that approach clumsy compared to a scripting language like Perl or Python (programming_language) both of which have http modules which can be used to retrieve Web content and regular expression modules which can be used to scrape the contents.  Python also has an HTML parsing module which can perform the task especially elegantly.
 * All that said, it looks to me like you would violate the NASB copyright. Even if it were not legally murky, I would still have to question the wisdom of this project. It would take me a few hours to cobble something like this together and ensure that it worked properly -- and I've been doing this kind of thing for 20 years.  If you're a novice, it will cost you weeks. Why not simply purchase a Bible in the format you need? Mike Duskis (talk) 06:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * wget is very useful for this sort of thing.

wget -l 1 -np -p -k http://biblelexicon.org/matthew/
 * should work. However, as Mike said, you're probably in breach of their copyright. CS Miller (talk) 09:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for introducing wget into the discussion. I find it an excellent tool for downloading HTML content over HTTP, especially if I'm interested in recursing the hyperlinks.  In this case, I suggested lynx (web browser) instead because it also parses the HTML, converting it to plain text.  This would make the task of scraping the content simpler and less error-prone.  As is the case with wget and CURL, a non-interactive mode makes lynx fully scriptable. As graphical Web browsers rose to dominance, lynx fell into obscurity.  I think this is a shame because it is still useful for many tasks. Mike Duskis (talk) 15:54, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * A late note on this: at least with the version of lynx I use, you can't simply redirect the output using ">" or "|". You first have to make lynx non-interactive by using the rather oddly named options -dump -crawl.  Then you can.  For example,

lynx -dump -crawl http://en.wikipedia.org >wikipedia-home-page


 * --Anonymous, 20:31 UTC, September 14, 2010.

Thanks to most of you for your insight. Over at the language desk I am trying to find what I am looking for. schyler (talk) 13:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

What is this Place
I can't figure out what this place is it needs a wikipedia article explaining itself.130.56.88.248 (talk) 03:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * See reference desk. -- k a i n a w &trade; 03:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And, Wikipedia has an official policy against writing articles about itself. This reference desk is within the Namespace, so the best place to find information about this desk is the information-banner at the top of this page (i.e., there is no article in Main namespace about this desk).  However, the Reference Desk has been the subject of at least a few academic studies about Wikipedia; for example, The paradox of expertise: Is the Wikipedia reference desk as good as your library?.   Nimur (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know about policies aganst having articles about ourselves...I was under the impression that, despite this coverage, the Ref Desk still didn't pass Notability. Vimescarrot (talk) 20:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If there is such a policy, how come the article Wikipedia exists? --Anon, 20:33 UTC, September 14, 2010.
 * There is no such policy that I am aware of. There is a Wikipedia article because WP itself (as a whole) is notable - many reliable sources have written extensively about it. The Refdesk pages have simply not (yet) qualified under the the General Notability Guidelines. Roger (talk) 21:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what to look for when Choosing a Web Hosting service for a plain Website.
I have some experience with Databases, HTML and coding.

I am looking to create a website which has a database however it will not have logins or anything like that. The database will have an image and description.

Please advise what kind of database service should be offered, what computer language I should study and how to get the database to interact with the HTML code, or to generate it.130.56.88.248 (talk) 04:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The best language for you depends on the database you want to use. So, what kind of database did you work with? ASP.NET works really well with Microsoft SQL Server and Microsoft Access. PHP works really well with MySQL.--Best Dog Ever (talk) 05:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Internet browser slow and freezing
Over the last few months I've been travelling all over SE Asia, China and Mongolia, and have probably used hundreds of different wifi connections on my netbook. In the last few weeks my Internet browser has become extremely slow - not just loading pages, but even opening my bookmarks menu, typing stuff etc. It freezes up for at least 15 seconds out of every minute. My friend thinks it's because the Internet here is just slow, but I don't see how that would affect anything other than the loading of pages, and I think it has something to do with the fact that my netbook has done the electronic equivalent of sleeping with hookers all over Asia. What exactly could be causing this and how do I fix it? 124.158.90.27 (talk) 05:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * How in the world could I possibly answer your question? I don't know what browser you're using and I don't know what your operating system is. Is your browser Internet Explorer? Are you using Windows XP? Are you using a Mac? I started to write some detailed advice, and then realized that it was for nothing because you gave almost no background information.--Best Dog Ever (talk) 05:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the immediate question is, could a slow internet connection cause a browser to have a slow user interface? I think without needing to know the details of the software, we can say almost certainly not. It should be simple enough to test, though - is the interface still slow if you put the browser into offline mode and use its menus, or look at some cached pages? If so, it definitely isn't your connection. (I bet it isn't your connection. If it turns out to only have a slow interface when you're online, I suspect malware, or some internet-related software you've installed that runs in the background. If it has a slow interface all the time, I suspect it's something like your browser being unable to cope with its cache or history or download history being too full, or barfing on some extension you've added - or malware.) 213.122.16.225 (talk) 09:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Possibly a Computer Virus or Malware as a result of "electronic equivalent of sleeping with hookers all over Asia" (Good analogy!) Scan and clean your hard disc drive (HDD). Your HDD might need Defragmenting, or may be getting too full. Try to keep at least 200 Mega-bytes free.  Another commonly suggested cure all for a 'slow' PC is to reload your operating system. - 220.101 talk\Contribs 05:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * You should have much more than 200MB free. Having a hard time finding proper references, but I think the usual recommendation is to have 10%-20% free space to reduce fragmentation. And apparently Windows XP requires 15% | free space to properly run its internal defrag tool. Unilynx (talk) 09:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I have assumed you are using a Windows machine. If so I suggest using Malwarebytes' Anti-Malware and AVG Anti-Virus. I use both and they seem to work very well. 220.101 talk\Contribs 08:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Without system specs, I'd suggest also that long freezes like that are a common symptom of running out of RAM. Have you installed any software that consumes more RAM?  Comet Tuttle (talk) 12:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Clear your cache. That solves a lot of problems Quadrupedaldiprotodont (talk) 13:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are using Windows, then the easdiest way to do that may be installing and running Ccleaner. 92.15.30.158 (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Free database software
Google brings up far too many hits so I turn to the collective knowledge of RefDeskers for help. I'm secretary of a non-profit organisation and maintain the (small - about 100) membership list in Excel. Typical fields are Name, Surname, Address, phone numbers etc. The treasurer uses a copy of this list to track annual membership fees, sales of tickets for fund-raising events etc. by appending the necessary columns to his copy of the Excel sheet. I'm responsible for adding new members to the list, updating contact details etc. He issues receipts and invoices (paper or electronic) and tracks payments on his own. As you can imagine there is always a danger of things getting out of sync between us. I'm looking at database options to replace the Excel method we're currently using, either online or offline. It needs to satisfy the following:
 * 1) Gratis
 * 2) A record for each member containing the usual "core" fields as per our current Excel sheet
 * 3) Ability to add "supplementary" fields globally to all members for membership fees each year or for fund-raising events, in order to track payments
 * 4) Ability to embed (not just link) attachments into the members' record e.g. scanned copies of ID documents, correspondence, receipts and invoices for payments etc.
 * 5) Ability to add/remove members and to mark "dormant" accounts for those whose membership has expired
 * 6) Export to the standard database and spreadsheet formats
 * 7) Bonus: ability to self-generate invoices or statements from within the database program
 * 8) Bonus: multi-user with permissions and access controls for certain fields e.g. secretary only has write access to certain fields, treasurer only has write access to certain fields.

Basically I'm looking for a combination database and rudimentary book-keeping system. Before downloading and trying all the different options Google brought up I thought I'd throw it to RDers for input. Thanks. (p.s. I'm extremely computer literate but have never used a database before, not even MS Access. Don't be scared to throw technical questions at me if needed.) Zunaid 12:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The only problem you cite is getting out of sync with your co-worker, so if your current Excel solution is good-enough, except for synching, you might consider just continuing to use Excel, but set up a Subversion server, and modify your workflow so each of you gets in the habit of using the Subversion client (usually TortoiseSVN) to do an Update before doing any work, then a Commit after doing some work. Comet Tuttle (talk) 12:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * well, first, you're not using excel to its fullest capacity. Excel has several features for online collaboration and synchronization.


 * That being said, if you just want something free and centralized, you might look at MySQL. bit of a learning curve if you've never used an SQL before, but it will do everything on your list out of the box (except for your first bonus point - you'd have to write a script in PHP or some such to extract data and output an invoice, or export info into Excel and use a Word merge).  -- Ludwigs 2  14:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The reason I'd like to go the database route is because it seems to be the "right" solution. Creating a record for each member and keeping their record updated seems more in line with what we want to do than appending columns and rows to Excel in perpetuity. Also the embedding of documents right into the members' record would make things very convenient. There is still some manual intervention of course but I'd like to explore the options. Ludwigs, I know SQL is a database query language but I have no idea what to do with your answer "you might look at mySQL". I'm basically hoping for an off-the-shelf product, hopefully an answer like "install OpenOffice Base, it does everything you need (and more)™!" Like I said, I've never even seen a database program before so I'll have to teach myself how they work from scratch (which I don't mind). Zunaid 15:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * look at the MySQL homepage and for their main competitor, the PostgerSQL homepage. You'll find download and installation instructions on both pages.  I know MySQL, so that's what I recommended, but the differences between them are minimal.  They are both intended a internet database servers (meaning that they sit an a machine somewhere storing data, and accept and process requests from local and remote clients).  They can be run from the command line, from PHP or ASP, or from standalone applications designed for the task that you can also find through a google search.


 * for a broader set of choices, you might look at Comparison of relational database management systems


 * 'Off the shelf' is a tricky concept. it will take you 15 minutes to install MySQL on your machine, and you can start using it immediately from the command line, but learning the fundamentals of using an SQL server (from using the SQL language to allocating privileges to different users to making sure the security is set correctly) takes a while.  If you want to use a GUI application for access that  that will have a little extra overhead; if you want to develop software specifically for your company you'll need to learn webdesign.


 * Translation into non-geek: MySQL is a program that will require you to basically learn a programming language to use effectively. Probably not what you want unless you are interested in learning both a tricky database language AND another language by which to build a real interface out of it, not to mention the web markup you'll need to output it. It's an elegant solution if you already know all the languages involved, but otherwise will take you a huge amount of time to learn, with a large learning curve. The people (like myself) who know all of the relevant languages involved are apt to underestimate how many years it took for us to get at the stage when it all became natural. I find the idea of a MySQL backend with a PHP/HTML front-end quite straightforward, and could whip one up in a matter of hours, but that's because I've got a solid decade of programming experience behind me. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It sounds like what you really want is Microsoft Access, to be honest. I know — not free, at all. And not the easiest thing to use in any event. But it can do all of what you are asking for, and is "off the shelf," and most of what you are requesting is not very complicated. Some of it is trickier, like embedding documents in the database itself (which is generally not done, because it increases the overhead of the database considerably — usually you keep the information within a file structure and link to it). But all of this is pretty basic DB stuff. With any DB though you'll need to spend some time learning how to set it up and keep it working. Since you are a non-profit, might I recommend trying to get a college or high school student intern to do this? An experienced DBA could do what you wanted in a day or two, plus whatever time it would take to iron out the inevitable bugs. It's the kind of project a beginning database programmer might find interesting as they are learning their way around things. When I was in high school I set up something very similar for a non-profit group, used it as my "community service" when applying to college. The downside of such a scheme is that the quality will probably not be as good as you'd get from an expert, and getting any kind of "black boxed" system is a bit dangerous, if you don't know how to fix things when they go wrong.
 * The tough truth of it is that what you're asking for is not so hard as to be out of the range, but is hard enough that doing it with commercial off the shelf is unlikely to be a straightforward thing. Somebody's going to have to learn a little database programming, a little Access or something else. On the other hand, maybe this is that opportunity you've always been looking for to expand your own skill set a bit? --Mr.98 (talk) 21:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Seems like databases are a lot more complicated than I expected. I had visions of something like Excel where you can just start with a blank database, quickly define some fields and start typing in things immediately. Seems like a lot of back-end work is required. Having (briefly) read through OOo Base's documentation I might just give this a go as a part time project to expand my skill set. I think for our organisation we'll need to stick to Excel (perhaps augmented by some VBA voodoo). A database might also not be sustainable long-term, we shouldn't expect any future secretaries and treasurers to be as PC literate as the current incumbents.

Side question: Still on the topic of off-the-shelf solutions, besides OOo Base are there any other products I should try? How easy is Zoho? Any others? Zunaid 09:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * You can do some things like you are describing, e.g. with OOo Base or Access. But some of what you are describing is more complicated than that. The issue is that in Excel, you have all sorts of easy tricks for sorting and editing the data in a pretty straightforward fashion. In a DB program like Access, this is also done with macros and scripting and more complicated queries and things like that. It's all very do-able, but it's not just a simple matter of switching from one to the other; without knowing how to use queries, macros, scripting, etc., what you'd end up would be functionally much poorer than what you already have with Excel. (Imagine if all you could do with Excel was edit things manually, search, and sort by alphabetization or value. That's pretty much the situation of trying to use a DB without knowing the other things.) --Mr.98 (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Have you considered making do with Excel? You can set up a shared workbook on a central server, which should help you prevent editing conflicts, and if you play around with Forms feature (under the Data menu in Office 2004) you can set up something which looks more like a database and less like entering rows on a spreadsheet.  That wouldn't handle anything high-volume, of course, but if there's only a handful of people trying to use it it should work just fine.


 * I mean, since you already have Excel, and your needs are not heavy, maybe it's best to stick with what you know. -- Ludwigs 2  22:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * There are free database languages such as Harbour (software). But programming something in them is going to take up a huge amount of time. 92.15.13.186 (talk) 20:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * TablePro http://www.321download.com/LastFreeware/page33.html may serve your needs. 92.29.118.215 (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Spam from a friend's email
I just got a spam message from a friend's email account. (The friend is definitely not the author of the message.) Does this likely mean that his account has been compromised, and I should alert him to change his password? Or is there a way for spammers to make you get a message from  without the friend's email account being involved? (It's different from scams that come from "PayPal.com", because my friend's email doesn't have anywhere near a high enough profile that it would be worth a spammer's time to type it in.)$$\sim$$ Lenoxus " * " 13:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Your friend probably has malware on their computer that sent it. And yes, you can technically send an email from any address. I could send you an email from "theprimeminister@number10.gov.uk" or "123@fbi.gov" etc. However you'd verify whether it was a real email or not by looking at the server address which sent in. In this case, it would not be coming from the official server so you'd know it was a fake. Quadrupedaldiprotodont (talk) 13:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Now I'm curious: Is there a simple way to check that server address thingy? $$\sim$$ Lenoxus " * " 14:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually I don't quite agree with Quadrupedaldiprontodont's first sentence. I think it's quite possible that your friend has malware on his or her computer; and it's very probable that one of your friends has malware on his computer.  What I mean is:  If Alice, Bob, and Charles are all listed in each other's address books, and Alice's system gets compromised and becomes a zombie spambot, then her computer may either (a) send spam to Bob and Charles; (b) send spam to Bob and Charles, with the "From" header forged to look like Bob's address; (c) send spam to Bob and Charles, with the "From" header forged to look like Charles's address; (d) send Alice's entire address book to the Zombie Master computer, which sends the addresses out to all the zombies in the botnet, and, eventually, the botnet will send literally millions of e-mails to millions of people, appearing to come from Alice and from Bob and from Charles and from everyone else who has had their address book uploaded to the Zombie Master.  Anyway, yes you should definitely tell the friend about this and advise them to scan for malware; but it's not proof of an infection.  The infectee might just be a friend.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * A good answer, but don't reply to the spam email to tell your friend of their possible malware infection. Start with a new email or a phone call.  Astronaut (talk) 06:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Prejudice against Macs
I told my friend I was thinking of buying a Mac. They laughed at me and said "Macs are overpriced shit". Why is there prejudice against Macs and Apple products in general? Sugarrush345 (talk) 13:22, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a matter of perspective. In your case, probably the result of confirmation bias due to advertising and a negative media campaign?Smallman12q (talk) 14:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * religion is passé, so people need some other topic to be jerks about?


 * Everyone has preferences about things like this, and some people allow their preferences to transform into a kind of group identity. group identities produce conflict.  The general Mac/Windows divide is a quality vs. expediency issue: macs are better quality machines and better quality software at a higher price; Windows PCs are more cheaply designed but more widespread.  If you have a profession/avocation that requires a computer you're better off with a Mac - you'll find it a better working environment, you'll find the machine is more powerful for complex tasks and more stable as a rule, and has a longer half-life before it obsoletes.  If you have a profession/avocation that just uses computers (e.g. office work) you'll get more bang for your buck from a PC.  -- Ludwigs 2  14:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, there is an example of the type of incorrect overgeneralization that has always characterized this divide. "If you have a profession/avocation that requires a computer you're better off with a Mac" - citation needed!!!  Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I do have a profession/avocation that requires a computer. In fact, I have three of them.  I am a health-informatics programmer.  I maintain multiple web servers.  I am also a computer science PhD student/instructor.  If I used a Mac, it would be like trying to run a marathon with concrete boots.  If I used a Windows box, it would be like trying to run a marathon with my legs cut off.  I use Linux because it natively allows me to do the work that I need to do without being chained down by the whims of what others declare to be "user friendly."  So, in response to the claim... If you are really a computer person, you won't use either a Mac or Windows machine.  If you have a job that happens to include a computer, like an accountant or computer artist, then you choose something user friendly. --  k a i n a w &trade; 15:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, this is the exact type of non-encyclopedic (reference desk is about facts, right??) generalization that shouldn't warrant further discussion. Without getting into an argument about which is the better ("Oh you must be a luminary if you use linux") but the computer and operating system you use is like the beer you like to drink... because there is no right or wrong answer, it's about personal choice and you shouldn't advocate your personal bias against another computer; in the same way you shouldn't criticize another man's choice of beer. Oh, and I use windows for work and home, solaris unix at work and I've used linux for both purposes but chose not use it any more. Sandman30s (talk) 19:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * People have strong feelings about computer choices, the same as they do football teams and religions and everything else. Macs tend to be more expensive (and you are probably paying a large premium for "good aesthetics" and "large advertising budget" as part of your price) and have more limited hardware options than PCs. On the other hand, you have far less trouble with things like viruses and malware than PC users do, and the machines as a whole are usually better "integrated" than a PC would be, and the simplicity in your choice-making can be seen as a virtue for some. Linux people love the fact that their OS is free and that if they want to they can reprogram that whole thing at a whim. There are legitimate reasons for preferring one set over another, but they depend on your values as a computer user and consumer. These days all of the different operating systems are trying so hard to look more or less like one another that many of the superficial differences are quite small. Personally I find MacBooks to be generally more impressive than their PC counterparts, but would never buy an iPhone as they seem to be overly restrictive and too high priced. To each their own! --Mr.98 (talk) 14:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Macs have a famously loyal fanbase. See Apple evangelist, then Backlash (sociology). $$\sim$$ Lenoxus " * " 14:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Apple is not merely marketing their products on technical specification alone. Apple computer and electronics products represent a particular style and approach to computing; and more than other computer systems, Apple products also represent a cultural and fashion statement.  They are very "user-friendly" in the sense that their designs gloss over many technical details; they also make certain user customizations impossible.  This design approach also makes a lot of commonplace tasks very smooth and simple.  For example, if you want to purchase and play mp3 files, Apple iTunes is very convenient and integrates to their entire product lineup (from iPod to iPad to iMac).  But if you want to change the login-screen wallpaper (hardly an unusual/technical request!), the process is actually quite arduous - because this "breaks" the Apple branding and style, it is not an "Apple-supported" feature, and the process is actually not user-friendly at all.  There are lots of similar examples - if your use-case requires, for example, specialized hardware modifications, Apple computers may entirely unsuitable.  There are a lot of good reasons to use an Apple system; and a lot of good reasons not to; and there are a lot of silly and unfounded opinions on both sides of the pro- and anti-Apple fence.  Make a decision based on your needs and budget: see Comparison of operating systems.  You might be surprised to realize that there are hundreds, or thousands, of free and commercially available computer operating systems for thousands of variations on hardware and form factor; the game has many players besides just Mac, Windows, (and Linux).  Most of these systems are not the right computer for you - but you can only make an informed choice after you've investigated several options.  Nimur (talk) 14:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Change your friends and buy whichever computer you want. Don't change them because of their ignorance or sectarianism over computers, change them because they're stupid.

Think of a Mac as a possibly (it's for you to decide) pretty package in which Mac OS X runs. Mac OS X has certain arguable advantages over Windows; presumably you know about these. One extraordinary (in my view) disadvantage is that it's extraordinarily difficult to avoid using the rat (mouse, trackball, whatever). In Windows (and most Linux distros), Alt-F will take you to the file menu of a GUI program. Yes, you can use the rat if you wish, or you can go faster with Ctrl-S or similar if you know what you want, but you also have the Alt + letter options. Meanwhile, with a Mac ... well, since a Mac has a "Command" and an "Option" key, it wouldn't be surprising if the key for this were different. So what is the key? Uh, there isn't one.

Apple also has the bizarre notion that people don't want or are confused by a second button on their rat. But luckily they're not dogmatic about that. You donate the Apple rat supplied in the box to a charity shop and buy an alternative from Logitech or wherever, and find that Apple has thoughtfully provided for the right button after all.

If you like Mac OS X but prefer Wintel hardware, then investigate the Hackintosh. -- Hoary (talk) 15:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * When I changed from Macs to Windows (which, due to a badly-timed attack of poverty, was exactly when OS X came out), I had to unlearn all the Mac keyboard shortcuts; and, as you say, they don't have shortcuts to open menus - but they do have a bunch of standard shortcuts to do simple things immediately in one keystroke. So I found myself pressing alt-Q (that is, apple-Q) a lot, in particular, to no avail, rather than alt-F and then X. By now I've learned all the single-press shortcuts, like alt-tab and alt-F4, but I still haven't acquired the habit of opening menus from the keyboard, and this is coming from a long-term Angband player. 81.131.5.26 (talk) 17:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * [edit conflict] I'd disagree with this, actually. I have a MacBook Pro, and I've never once used a mouse with it. I (and many other people I know) actually enjoy using the trackpad more. By default it's decent, but combined with some freely available third party software it can be customized far, far more than any other trackpad I've seen, to the point where I don't even want to have a mouse. As for the original question, there's a lot of different reasons. Unfortunately I do think a large part of it is due to the aura of smugness Apple often projects and the intractable ravings of some of the most vocal fans. I personally am a very happy Mac user (and a computer person—you can have computer people use Apple products too!), yet find those two things quite irritating as well. I think a major contributing factor is people just not knowing much about Macs and OS X in general and just repeating things they hear other people say. In my opinion, it ultimately depends on your needs and budget. I'm more than happy to recommend Windows, OS X, or Linux (having used all three) to different people based on what their own personal requirements are. 173.66.149.81 (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

To answer the original question about why there's "prejudice", the strongly opinionated divide between the two camps has existed since the Mac was introduced, and it has gone both ways, with Mac users snorting at the inferiority of Windows. But this sort of divide has also existed with previous PCs, where the Apple II users snorted with contempt at the Atari 400 and Commodore 64, and vice versa; and in video game consoles, where you can easily find the raging wars on the message boards about why Xbox is totally superior to PlayStation, and vice versa. I have always attributed this to two things: (1) the psychological principle in which people become irremediably attached to their previous investments of time and money. If you've spent two years with Windows, the very idea that a Mac would have been a better choice is an insult to your intelligence and your two years of investment. (Same idea going the other way.) (2) Basic human tribalism, especially among the young. I belong to the Windows tribe or to the Apple tribe, and because I'm tribal, rather than this just being human beings having chosen to use either a hammer-and-nails or a screwdriver-and-screws, the choice assigns you to either "us" or "them", and the two groups are fundamentally opposed. As an aside, the divide ought to be less now than it was in the 1990s, because Macs can dual-boot, so the fight now really is (or ought to be) Windows OS versus Mac OS, rather than a fight about all the hardware architecture as well. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think a lot of the Mac pride is residual from the fact that the Macintosh 128K was really amazing and unique - for roughly 18 months, starting in 1984. 81.131.5.26 (talk) 18:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe it has to do with Evangelism marketing?Smallman12q (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

"Psychology of small differences"
The "us" vs. "them" goofiness described above reminds me of a concept I once read about on Wikipedia. It was about how when two groups of people are very similar they will tend to magnify the importance of whatever small differences might exist between them. Example (second joke). Can anyone point me to it? Thanks. --Sean 16:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sectarianism? Bloody splitters! 213.122.69.236 (talk) 19:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know if there's a particular name for this (I can't think of one, and I am fairly familiar with cognitive biases), but it would probably get lumped under cognitive dissonance. Basically, a small difference in the middle of otherwise large coherence will produce more cognitive dissonance than a large differences overall, because the greater the similarity between the two, the more likely that differences will produce value judgements.  -- Ludwigs 2  23:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually trailed through a dozen or so articles (starting with tribalism) before I hit on sectarianism, and one other that seemed as if it might fit was group polarization. This article might be about the phenomenon you just described, or it might make contradictory assertions, or be about something else entirely, I have difficulty telling. Anyway, there it is. 213.122.59.149 (talk) 09:25, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I haven't compared prices for the last couple of years, but through most of their history Macs have had higher prices compared to other machines with similar benchmarks. (Last time I checked this difference was almost double for their cheapest machines, but negligible for their most expensive high-performance machines. But I want to stress this was at least three years ago when I last personally researched this.)
 * Their supporters often claim that the price difference is explained by Apple devices being "Luxury" devices and that you pay more for a nicer machine. (A Luxury car might not have a more powerful engine than a Honda civic, but it might still be worth more to you.) Their detractors claim that the 'luxury' factor is an illusion caused by very aggressive, and very clever, marketing.
 * Personally, Every time I've looked into buying a new machine, I've always agreed with the mac-haters that Macs are too expensive for what you get, but then again, I drive a Hyundai, so maybe I just don't value luxury. APL (talk) 14:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Getting the static URL for a Flash video
It is a sad and sobering experience when you realize that you're dumber than Fred Phelps. I was trying to create a static link to a video he recently posted of a flag and Koran burning, which is prominently displayed at http://www.godhatesfags.com/. I did a view source and easily got the URL for the flash:



This is passed via his site's function openVideo:

options: {flashVars: {media:vid, autoplay:"Yes-on first video"}}

to Shadowbox.open

Now flashVars go directly to the flash player

But where in hell is the base? Because guess what, http://www.godhatesfags.com/video/20100911koranburn.flv is a 404.

I also tried downloading and using FireBug according to, but all it ever got me, despite cache clearing, was a useless link to singleflashplayer.swf.

This is actually somewhat important for video referencing in articles, since otherwise, all you can say is, duh, look at his site, maybe you'll find it. Wnt (talk) 17:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * You're getting a 404 because you're trying to use HTTP to download it. It's not served over HTTP: it's served over RTMP. You can't easily cook up that reference into a plain rtmp:// url, because a) free-standing player support for rtmp is patchy at best and  b) rtmp has a bunch of other parameters that may need to be specified (read about that here). While you may be able to figure out all the parameters you'd need to specify (that's what flash video downloaders like DownloadHelper for Firefox do) you wouldn't end up with something that's easily clickable. So I doubt anyone will consider this to be an acceptable way of verifying something. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 19:20, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't get it. Firefox obviously can play the video.  I just want it to know which flash file I want to watch and act as if I've just hit the play button.  For this purpose it's not important to save the stream to disk or bypass the ordinary Flash player. Wnt (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Firefox isn't playing the video. A flash application embedded in an HTML page is playing it. That player, and not Firefox, is engaging in the RTMP session to download and play the video. Without that flash application Firefox can't play the video (even though Firefox has a flash plugin, that's not enough).  So to make a playable url for that video, you need to have an http url to an html page containing that flash player. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 19:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose that the "singleflashplayer.swf" file is the flash application you're describing. But what's so special about it?  It sounds generic.  According to Flash Video there are many standalone players.  I ran one of these, VLC media player, and it has a drop-down menu to choose rtmp:, and I entered www.godhatesfags.com/video/20100911koranburn.flv as the target ... still no action.  Software aborted connection, no handshake received.  I don't get it - these programs seem like they must do something, if properly used.


 * Put it this way: suppose I wanted to aspire to be as clever as Fred Phelps and put up a flash application on my own site to play this .flv file. How would I do it?  Wnt (talk) 20:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * There's frequently nothing special about the particular flash player; lots of sites use the same one. A few (like the one for the BBC's iPlayer service) do all kinds of clever stuff, but most don't. I doubt Phelps' one is anything special. When you say there are lots of players for "flash video", that's true, for FLV files. But you're not playing a file, you're playing a stream, so the "player" needs to talk the streaming protocol as well as understand the file format of that which is streamed. Indeed, lots of players can play FLV files. But most won't do a worthwhile job of playing even the simplest rtmp streams. VLC has support, but it only works for a fraction of streams.  That stream-recorder.com post I linked to above tells you how to use a special program to figure out the options for a given (standard) RTMP session.  If you do that for this stream, you might get an rtmp:// url that VLC will play (it's rather more complex than what you have - you seem to have to specify the server-side "app" and a "client" field as well), but (as that post notes) there are some additional parameters to an RTMP session that can't be represented in a URL - if those are relevant to this particular case, you're out of luck (and frankly that rtmpsrv process is rather more involved than I can be bothered doing; your commitment may be greater than mine). And at the end of it you'll get a URL that will open on only a few computers, assuming they're configured just right.  All of this is because FLV, RTMP, and the RTMP url scheme are entirely non-standard. Things should be much more straightforward with HTML5 video (although codec support will be an issue even then).   Lastly, if you wanted to play this video on your own site, you'd copy his HTML code and embed it in an HTML page on yours (unless he checks the http referrer, you can have almost everything still hosted on his site, and only have your own html).  The problem with using his video on Wikipedia is of course that you can't embed custom javascript and a flash player in a normal Wikipedia article. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 21:09, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Now if you're thinking "why don't these bozos just download the file over http", which would of course let you have an http:// url to the file, which is just what you want. And that's technically perfectly possible; HTTP has had a "range-request" header (which is what you'd use to seek around a non-live stream) since http1.1.  Indeed, that's how the open-source OS-FLV player works (do your same analysis of their demo page and you see they do have an http:// url to the downloadable flv, which you can indeed link to or download directly).   But it's not in Adobe's interest to do that, as all this RTMP pain is one of the main things keeping people using their stuff. And its not in the interests of big video download sites doing it, because then people would post download links to their vids, and they'd lose ad traffic (although in fairness YouTube does do some HTML5 video, I believe). -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 21:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's how you do it without ever having any flash player installed: get the swf. flasm -x (decompress) it. strings it. rtmp://98.190.12.131/ appears. Look at that, 98.190.12.131 is wsip-98-190-12-131.ks.ks.cox.net, "KS" is the Home of the Idiot (state motto, I think). Try rtmp://98.190.121.131/video/20100911koranburn.flv with mplayer. Bingo. --69.245.226.104 (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I downloaded the mplayer version from mulder.dummwiedeutsch.org, typed in URL rtmp://98.190.121.131/video/20100911koranburn.flv ... and nothing. 0x0 resolution, according to the info.  I assume that nothing in the the first steps don't affect what happens when I do this, given that I'm using this URL.  I see that there are many options for video and audio codec in the playback, and perhaps I merely need to figure out what they are somehow (I know someone posted instructions above, but I became skeptical somewhere around the part about "remember to change back your hosts file...").  I think that the gist of the above has been that .flv is not really one format, but a multitude of incompatible formats, which are not labelled to indicate which is which.
 * It's worth noting, however, that if I can figure out how to set each of the four columns, and can tell users to set download mplayer and set those four options and enter the rtmp: URL, then this approaches a usable reference link. Not exactly click and go, but it would be at least an option. Wnt (talk) 04:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Never heard of mulder.dummwiedeutsch.org, and it doesn't exist now as far as I can tell, so I have no idea what you've found. But if it's actually mplayer, then mplayer -dumpfile foo.flv -dumpstream rtmp://... should save it. 69.245.226.104 (talk) 04:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... When you linked mplayer above, I went to from the article.  Which says "The recommended way to install MPlayer is to compile from current SVN source. Look at the unofficial packages  section of our projects page if you do not wish to compile from source and/or are looking for packages that may be more tightly integrated with your platform..."  Now to me, this last part sounds like opensourcese for "packages that might actually work on your platform", though perhaps I am terribly wrong and out of date and nowadays you can just compile up a program on another computer system besides the one the author used without battly baddering your head 'gainst the wall.  This SMPlayer was the one of the unofficial packages that looked viable and finished.  But I don't see a command line option -dumpfile (though I'm not sure the options they list in the GUI are smplayer options or mplayer options...).  But do I need dumpfile for my goal of getting a Simple Out Of The Box Link to third-party flash videos?  I thought that was just to save the .flv, which this claims to maybe-possibly do with "other drivers", unspecified.  I feel as if all these people are afraid that if they come out and explain themselves in a usable manual that they'll get sued for it, but maybe I'm wrong. Wnt (talk) 05:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * On further inspection, I see there is a mulder.dummwiedeutsch.de, not .org as you said. And I'm sorry that your OS puts up so many obstacles between you and getting mplayer installed properly. Let me restate what I've said already, without extra details: rtmp://98.190.121.131/video/20100911koranburn.flv is the address of the video. mplayer, at least as installed on my system (from SVN, not from any "unofficial package"), is perfectly happy to play it, with no extra configuration necessary. I suggested downloading because that would provide a way around the problem that your mplayer was unable to play it. The implied suggestion (not implied strongly enough, apparently) was that you download it with mplayer since mplayer understands the RTMP mumbo-jumbo, and then play it with the movie player of your choice. But now you're back asking for the "link" again, which is a question that had already been answered. rtmp://98.190.121.131/video/20100911koranburn.flv is it. All clear now? 69.245.226.104 (talk) 08:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The Firefox Plugin called "Unplug" does a good job of sniffing out Flash URLs. --Sean 16:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

texting
whats a program i can text my gf with on the computer but it looks like its coming from my number. i hate texting on my phone. i will pay —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomjohnson357 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The best way to approach this would be work out if you can, and if you can how to connect your phone to your computer. (Does it have Bluetooth? Infrared? If not it will hopefully support some sort of cable connection.) Once you have, find a program which can access your phone. The phone manufacturer will usually provide one, although for popular brands like Nokia and Sony-Ericsson you'll likely find other user developed software which may be better. In any case, most software will be able to use your phone to send SMSes (and sometimes MMSes). Alternatively your mobile network provider may have an online service. Nil Einne (talk) 19:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

are there any on line programs i can use? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomjohnson357 (talk • contribs) 23:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Just google "send text message using computer". I used to send text this way when I didn't have text messaging on my phone.  Lots of advertisements though.--70.222.49.57 (talk) 06:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The OP apparently wants the sender's number to be the same as their mobile number which isn't something commonly (AFAIK) offered by free services. Even pay services don't always offer this service. According to SMS spoofing, Skype does but it's not clear how the reply path will work, in other words even though the message may look like it's coming from your phone if someone replies to the message it may end up somewhere you don't want, presuming it doesn't get lost completely. suggests SMS spoofing often doesn't even work in the US where the OP lives. As I've said above, some mobile network providers do offer the option to send SMS via their website or similar means, it's not clear to me the OP has looked into their mobile network provider which is surely the best option first up Nil Einne (talk) 06:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Our provider (though not free) allows us to set any sender on SMS messages as we like, up to 10 alphanumeric characters or 16 numeric characters if I'm correct. In practice, it's no problem for us to set. eg the European emergency number 1-1-2 as the sender of an SMS message. Unilynx (talk) 16:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of websites which will send text messages to a mobile number. Whether they will send using your own mobile number, I don't know.
 * On the other hand, why do you dislike using your phone to send text messages? Have you considered turning on T9 text prediction?  It works very well on my phone, though I know some people find it more confusing (in which case you can turn it off).  Astronaut (talk) 06:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * We use these guys at work, but I'm not sure whether they are international. We send the SMS via a web interface or unix script. They have contracts with the cell providers in order to be able to do this. Sandman30s (talk) 11:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Word's Editing Tools
I recently found out about the strikethrough tool in Words and I'm finding it useful to do editings. Now I'm interested in knowing all the other such useful tools in Words that serve the editing purpose. Please tell me what they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.120.162 (talk) 21:54, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It sounds like you're describing the "track changes" feature - there's info about using it here. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 21:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * What it really sounds like you want is a tutorial on all of Word's "useful" features. There are manuals and books and help files galore on "Microsoft Weird"; it's been my impression that this reference desk is for answers to specific questions which someone is having trouble finding otherwise.  If you can handle a Google (or other search engine) search, there are many, many places to find this information.  If not, try your local bookstore; a Borders or Barnes & Noble will have a section on this program.


 * rc (talk) 22:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, our job is to point out useful references - this OP's question is extremely broad, but it still probably qualifies as a valid request for "reference material." Nimur (talk) 07:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * For editing, "Track Changes" is pretty essential. You can also "Compare Documents" which is pretty useful if someone has edited one and you have edited another. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I've found the official Microsoft help and online resources to be excellent quality: Getting started with Word 2010 will help you locate additional resources. Here is the main Word Help and How-To guide.  Here is the tutorial for how to use Reviewing features in Word.  Nimur (talk) 07:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)