Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2011 June 21

= June 21 =

Tracing MAC address over the Internet
Is it possible? What if a computer has to login on a page? That would mean it would be part of your network, and therefore it's not only a visitor to your page. 88.8.78.155 (talk) 00:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It is rare that the MAC address is broadcast outside of the local network. This is repeatedly asked from those who are trying to uniquely identify a computer that is visiting a website. To do that, the common solution is to use Flash cookies. -- k a i n a w &trade; 00:47, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Administrator bullying situation - where to report it?
Where do I report a situation where an administrator is mean to a user? -- J  (t)  03:00, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You might want to consider learning a bit more about how Wikipedia works before setting out to attack people. Poorly directed attacks have a tendency to boomerang. Looie496 (talk) 03:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also suggest learning to look and read more carefully may help. Help desk would be the place to ask any question concerning wikipedia as Reference desk specifies. As with Looie496 I'm presuming you're referring to wikipedia, we have no idea where you can report an administrator in some other unspecified random website (if it is even possible). Nil Einne (talk) 05:57, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:AN/I AvrillirvA (talk) 09:42, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * ... but almost always better in the long run to just walk away and ignore it, rather than escalating the situation. As noted above, Help desk is the appropriate venue to ask for further advice. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:31, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not clear that the question is about Wikipedia admins: it could easily refer to a workplace problem, in which case we would need more details, though it would probably be very difficult (and verging on the "legal advice" area) to give an answer. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Good point, but a glance at recent posts on the OP's talk page suggests they are probably asking about Wikipedia. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't waste your time, admins protect each other on Wikipedia if at all possible; usually how they got to be admins in the first place. ¦ Reisio (talk) 15:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Reisio, if you have evidence of this phenomenon, post it on your talk page, please. I think that many anon editors think it is "admin abuse" when it isn't. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:09, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I think many anon editors and non-anon editors think it is "admin abuse" when it is. What good would it do to post about it on my talk page? I just got done telling this guy not to waste his time. ¦ Reisio (talk) 01:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason why I asked you to post it on your talk page is, in order to successfully defend your thesis that "admins protect each other on Wikipedia if at all possible" you would have to provide evidence, and I do not believe that the best course of action would be to get this discussion off of a tangent. But you need to provide the evidence, so the best place is to do it on the talk page.
 * If someone makes a fantastic claim like "admins protect each other on Wikipedia if at all possible" in a way to suggest that admins have a cabal conspiracy keeping the anon/new user down, then I am going to ask him/her to provide evidence.
 * In many cases, Reisio, anons make honest mistakes and need to learn from them. Or the anon/new user has committed a serious act of willful misconduct.
 * Also admin abuse is only admin abuse is the guy says "I'm an admin" to get more credibility or actually uses his admin powers.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 02:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

You say it’s fantastic, which means you’re either an admin, a wannabe admin, or ignorant. (/me checks your page, big surprise you’re an admin) You just proved my point, thanks. ¦ Reisio (talk) 05:09, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Reisio, No personal attacks makes it very clear: "Comment on content, not on the contributor".
 * That was not an okay response, and it does nothing to refute my point. Failure to address my argument and attacking me personally will not help your thesis.
 * Also, administrators have more trust in them, but they do not count more than regular users. I have the same weight in a Wikipedia discussion as any other user would.
 * It would be wise for you to not do that again.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 06:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the OP is complaining about being told by an admin to lay off editing a particular page. Astronaut (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * When an editor politely tells someone to make their signature compliant with the rules and that editor even offers suggestions on how the other person can modify the signature to make it compliant but the other person feels that the comments were 'rude' to extent they move both to their semi hidden archive page for 'negative' comments User talk:Jeffwang/Archive 0 this makes one think the other person has problems. Even more so when the other person has been editing since 2008 so isn't a complete noob.
 * When that person gets into another huff, again moving the content into this semi hidden archive when it is politely suggested yelling at people in an edit notice it not the way to interact on wikipedia this calls in to further question whether that other person has problems.
 * So when an admin and bureaucrat suggests that same person is making problems in a page and asks them to stay away, without mentioning they are an admin and bureaucrat, and without suggesting they will take any administrative action, it seems likely the problem is more with the person then the admin and bureaucrat. Particularly when the person's response is to yell and suggest they will stop but also report the admin while again yelling and then to come to the RD/C and post an offtopic question. And regardless, calling it admin abuse when the admin has apparently not even said they are an admin in the dispute seems a little rich.
 * If this is the sort of thing Reisio is calling admin abuse, I would have to conclude with others that that they have no evidence for their claims. It's no wonder we can't deal with real admin abuse when people experienced with wikipedia like Reisio call stuff like this 'admin abuse'.
 * The simple fact is of course most human interactions whether in real life or on the internet and this includes wikipedia requires that people don't take extreme offense at every single suggestion on improvement that could be intepreted as mildly critical of them.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 02:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. Looking briefly at the actual cause for the recommendation, it seems one of the problems was the removal of a request with insufficient info but where the normal policy is to leave such requests in case the person who made it comes back. This may not be the worst crime but it does suggest they were making problems not only for the people working on the page but for the people seeking help.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 02:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a little more like the sort of thing you’re saying I’m calling admin abuse, and a little less like the sort of thing I’ve actually called admin abuse. Reviewer, rollbacker, let me guess — wannabe admin? ¦ Reisio (talk) 05:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, if you are saying that this isn't a case of admin abuse, but there are other real cases out there and what you describe is "admin abuse" is the real cases, then the discussion on real admin abuse should go on another page.
 * If you want to say "there is admin abuse" then take the time to document, comment, and explain. Show diffs, link to pages, catalog everything. Start appropriate threads.
 * Above all "Don't waste your time" (on reporting admin abuse) is absolutely not a healthy attitude on Wikipedia. Nihilism is not a good philosophy. People need to learn to appropriately engage in disputes with administrators (administrator status is only relevant if admin powers are used or if the person flaunts admin status)
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 06:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

My dear WhisperToMe, what I’ve said is above for your reading enjoyment. ¦ Reisio (talk) 18:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have already read everything that you posted before 18:47, 22 June 2011, and I replied to those comments.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Just saying, if you want to actually know what I’ve said instead of just making up on your own what I’ve said, there it is. ¦ Reisio (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I link to diffs, which say exactly what you said.
 * I do not believe that I have mischaracterized anything that you have said. If so, where? How was it mischaracterized?
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Hopeless case. ¦ Reisio (talk) 07:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * When a Wikipedian makes a claim, it is up to him/her to provide evidence. When Wikipedian A makes a claim without showing diffs/evidence, Wikipedian B is in the right to ask him or her to show the evidence. So Wikipedian A ought to say "Okay, here's the evidence" and lay down everything. Wikipedian A should not attack Wikipedian B for asking for evidence.
 * Wikipedian B has no obligation to search for sources for Wikipedian A's claim.
 * If Wikipedian A makes a statement, doesn't back it up, and criticizes attempts to ask for evidence, Wikipedian A's campaign is a "hopeless case"
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 17:52, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Archiving a Polish report
From http://komisja.smolensk.gov.pl/portal/kbw/633/8695/Raport_koncowy_MAK_ze_wskazaniem_zmian_do_projektu_raportu.html there is a Polish report at http://komisja.smolensk.gov.pl/download.php?s=65&id=11976

But if I use webcitation.org to archive http://komisja.smolensk.gov.pl/download.php?s=65&id=11976, the archiving fails (instead it becomes a download link to "download.php").

How do I successfully archive the file? WhisperToMe (talk) 03:12, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you download it? General Rommel (talk) 00:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can download it.
 * But what I want to do is have the link archived on http://webcitation.org. The website has no problem archiving a barebones PDF link, like http://www.somewhere.com/This.PDF - But the site does not successfully archive the URL http://komisja.smolensk.gov.pl/download.php?s=65&id=11976 - I want to find a way to get the real file location of the file so that I can archive it
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 00:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Also I want to find the real location of the file at http://komisja.smolensk.gov.pl/download.php?s=65&id=11861 WhisperToMe (talk) 02:43, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Would it be enough for You to refer to Issuu? Because the reports are there - one, two. --Ouro (blah blah) 09:46, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've tried one and it seems to have worked: . Happy archiving. --Ouro (blah blah) 09:49, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for referring me to Issuu! I've never heard of the site before. I could possibly see if I could upload documents there myself.
 * However when I checked the webcitation of the first Issuu document, it doesn't seem to work (the content doesn't display)
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 17:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the website is using a content management system... WhisperToMe (talk) 18:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But why doesn't it work for You? It displays after the link is clicked. Darn, I'll only be able to answer more thoroughly in the morning... --Ouro (blah blah) 22:43, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I see the page, but not the document that the page is supposed to contain WhisperToMe (talk) 03:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I see it now (I mean, I see your point, and I don't see the document). Okay, so how about one link from good old Wikipedia, and another from a mediocre Polish newspaper? --Ouro (blah blah) 05:07, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Whoa! I had no idea the CVR transcription was in the Commons!
 * Thanks for finding the alternate Polish language report location!
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 17:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I was able to get an archive of the one at Gazeta: http://www.webcitation.org/5zf3EFa3M WhisperToMe (talk) 17:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What about the other one, do you also need to archive it or is it enough that it's on the Commons? Stumbled upon it while searching for the PDFs for you, simple as that. --Ouro (blah blah) 18:33, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be useful to find another location of the CVR transcript file that can be archived, just in case :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:51, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, take your pick. --Ouro (blah blah) 04:45, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Best cloud desktop service
What's the best commercial cloud-computing service for occasionally running desktop GUI applications, where all I need that I don't have locally is more CPU power? Neon Merlin  07:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Google's Chrome OS claims to do that. In fact it shoves everything into the cloud - your data and your apps.   Astronaut (talk) 16:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont think that's possible, as it would require very big badwith to move datat between laptop and the cloud, as the laptop still needs to display what the user is doing. So if you need more CPU power, I'd believe the only way is for the CPU to be housed in the cloud, and somehow the CPU's instruction transferred between the cloud and a reciever. Perhaps that would be the future; buying a computer that would be stored online-the only thing necessary would be a display that has a superfast wireless connection.General Rommel (talk) 01:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Windows PE image restore
I'm restoring a computing using Windows PE, during the restoration process a message appears in the command line ending in "...SACL is going away". Is this a good or a bad thing? Jackacon (talk) 10:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a normal part of the process. gnfnrf (talk) 15:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Great cheers! Jackacon (talk) 14:32, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Is there a charity that will send my old computer to the 3rd world?
I'm sure there are many schools and other facets of 3rd world life that would appreciate a computer, even if old.

There is a computer I had two systems before the one I have now, sitting in a closet in my apartment. I got it to work last time I turned it on, so it's still of some use. I wish to see it off to Africa, SE Asia, or any other impoverished area of the world that could use another secondhand computer.

Would you please help me find the right resources to get that system sent there? Thanks. --65.64.190.134 (talk) 13:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Chances are you can find someplace in the very same city you live in that can relocate that to an impoverished person... in the very same city you live in. My understanding is also that most computer and electronics recycling programs end up shipping all the components to the "3rd world", where they're dismantled and separated on the cheap.  It's unlikely that shipping an old computer to another continent would be an efficient use of anyone's money/time/effort. ¦ Reisio (talk) 15:41, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The main problem with old computers is the software. Sure - you can send your old computer to someone else - you can actually walk down to a school in a poor neighborhood and ask the principal which student would make the best use of it (that's what I do). But, you need to wipe it clean first. Then, you need to reinstall the operating system - do you still have your Windows license? Then, you have make it useful by adding Microsoft Office - do you have that? Then, you need to show the kid how to use it - because you can't expect a kid in a poor school to have ever used a computer before. Then, you have to plan to be forgiving when all your time is wasted because the kid's parents take the computer straight to the closest pawn shop to get a quick $20. -- k a i n a w &trade; 18:30, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sometimes the agency collecting the computer installs the OS itself. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:31, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

If what you always do ends up with it being pawned, maybe you should stop doing that. In my town (which I wouldn't consider particularly special in this regard), we have various organizations that collect old computers to use in free computer labs, for people to learn how to use various software with, so they can get better jobs. They aren't pawned. As for kids and learning, I'm fairly sure science has proven they're much better at it than adults, particularly when there's the potential to play games. :p Linux, OpenOffice. ¦ Reisio (talk) 01:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, many charities in the UK are reluctant to take any electrical item due to liability problems should it later exhibit a fault. As for computers, there are additional problems with the software licenses - the last thing a charity needs is to be sued by Microsoft for 'distributing' improperly licensed copies of Windows/Office.  Astronaut (talk) 09:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That's what Linux & OpenOffice.org are for. Sending old computers to third-world countries runs into issues around toxic waste. Roger (talk) 11:04, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Web server on top level domain only?
I pretty distinctly remember seeing a url leading to a working http server on just a top level, something like http://example or http://.example. Anyone know what I'm talking about? 71.200.137.85 (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Generic top-level domain? It's also possible that you aren't using Internet DNS servers.  If you're using a local name-resolution server (part of your intranet, or something you intentionally configured in your hosts configuration file), then a URL may point to a non-globally-qualified host.   Nimur (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In a quick sweep of country codes, I found that all of the following countries have an IP address directly on the top-level domain: ai bi cm dk gg hk io je ph pn sh tk tm to uz ws. Checking them all for the presence of a web server is left as an exercise. 67.162.90.113 (talk) 22:41, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

'Monitor Program'?
For a while now, a certain well-known game downloader /updater (similar to Steam) has not been working properly on my machine. Every time I try to run it, I get a small dialogue box titled 'WinLicense' (sometimes 'Themida'), and a message saying "A monitor program has been found running in your system. Please, unload it from memory and restart your program." I am unable to find out what 'monitor program' this is referring to, and I contacted the company that owns the game downloader. They told me that I probably ran some debugging software, but I have no knowledge of this. Since then, they haven't spoken to me at all (for over two weeks, and despite my persistent and repeated requests for help), but the problem still persists and it's driving me crazy. AVG Internet Security 2011 does not detect anything, and nor do Malwarebytes Antimalware and Ad-Aware Internet Security 2011. I also have Zemana Antilogger running and it detects nothing. Does anyone have any idea of what to do here? KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  18:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * For some games, particularly online games, people make available programs like Glider that automate boring processes (heck, what in WoW isn't a boring process) or maphacks that allow otherwise invisible stuff to be seen. These programs sometimes attach to the game process using the OS' debugger APIs so they can monitor and intercept what the game is doing, and sometimes patch the game processes memory. Some malware also uses these APIs to steal licence keys or login information from programs (e.g. Win32WowStealer). So anti-cheating software like Warden and PunkBuster look for programs they recognise, and also for programs that hook the debug APIs. That may be what they mean by "monitor program".  In this case it looks like the program in question is protected by Oreans Technologies WinLicence program (info). So it sounds like something is using one of the APIs that WinLicence finds objectionable. Unfortunately makers of programs like that aren't always very forthcoming about what they object to; and they don't give direct support to the end user (their customer is the game's maker). Assuming you really aren't running a cheat program, and you've not got any malware, then the most common category of stuff is indeed programs used by software developers - debuggers, network monitors, program-crash monitors, and things like RegMon and FileMon. Unfortunately these hooks are also used by other programs that you might not expect, such as accessibility software and remote-access software (like VNC). And (given the unresponsiveness of the vendor) figuring out what their program is objecting to can be tricky. The trouble with such hooks is that they frequently install a probe at bootup time (technically they install a ring0 monitor and hook the relevant kernel hooks) - so simply killing a program (e.g. with the Task Manager) doesn't uninstall these objects (they have to not be loaded at boot in the first place). Worse, anti-virus and anti-malware programs also hook these. Good security and licence software should recognise and whitelist other legitimate security software, but maybe in you case it's mistaking a good cop for a villain. Unfortunately the responsibility really is on WinLicense and the game program company to tell you what they're specifically objecting to, as it's really not reasonable to expect you to experimentally uninstall programs until you chance upon whatever it is they mistake for malware. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 19:51, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, cheers. Well, I know I do not have any cheat software at all. I do have Punkbuster, but I have had that longer than I've had this downloader (the name of which I would rather not divulge as they are an up-and-coming company and I do not want to give them any bad press, plus they have been very good with me in the past). At one point, I had Greatis UnHackMe, which I uninstalled - but after the uninstallation I was informed there were files left over that had to be manually removed. I did so (at least, by clearing out what was left in Program Files). Perhaps this is the culprit, as it runs a number of monitors, and perhaps I have not fully cleansed and exorcised my system of it. After reading through your post, I thought also that TeamViewer may be to blame, but uninstalling that made no difference. In the end, I have re-contacted the company in question, and they are looking into it once again. Cheers. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  01:48, 23 June 2011 (UTC)