Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2015 August 21

= August 21 =

How important was Linus Torvalds for the Linux kernel actually?
How important was Linus Torvalds for the Linux kernel actually? What's his share on these 15+ million lines of code? How much work did he do until others started working on the project? --Jubilujj 2015 (talk) 00:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, he wrote the entire thing originally. Since he wrote the original Kernel however it has been greatly expanded upon by countless contributors. I have no idea how many lines of code the original kernel was but no doubt it was a small fraction of 15 million. History of Linux might give you a bit of an idea how it all came about. Vespine (talk) 03:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * What is important is that he started it. There were free operating systems - which influenced Torvalds. Mainly, he was inspired by Tanenbaum's MINIX - which I would refer to as an "educational" operating system. Stallman has spent many years trying to claim some form of responsibility. It is a stretch to give him any. Torvalds used GNU licensing for Linux (technically, he licensed Freax, but it was renamed Linux). So, we are getting into a mess of who influenced who. What it comes down to is that Torvalds wrote Freax (later named Linux) and gave it away. Further, he didn't tie it down with licensing restrictions. Then, once released, he has remained a controller of the project (not product, but project - a very non-business mindset). Getting to the implied question: is any of Linus' original code still in Linux? I'm certain that the answer is "no." It has evolved far too much to retain the original code. 209.149.114.69 (talk) 12:15, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's important to distinguish between the Linux kernel and the Linux operating system, which contains the kernel as well as a large number of programs. Stallman and the FSF don't claim credit for the kernel, they correctly claim credit for many of the programs that come with it, without which it would be pretty much useless.  Thus Stallman argues that the operating system should be called Gnu/Linux -- the Linux kernel combined with an array of Gnu programs.  Perhaps the most important FSF contribution was GCC, the "copylefted" C compiler.  It's hard to imagine how the Linux project could have succeeded without GCC. Looie496 (talk) 19:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Here's the GitHub page for the Linux kernel- . While I agree that it is unlikely that any of Torvalds' original code is still in there, he may well have written code that is currently used, and anyone interested can check the Git history to see who has contributed what. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:03, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I checked several files at random, and I only needed to check four files in kernel/ before finding one whose header-doc indicates Linus as the original author: kernel/user.c. Is this code, or any part of it, "original"?  That's a software-archaelogy question that is surprisingly non-trivial.  (commit log, since 2.6)  On this point: can anyone find a review article, on LWN or elsewhere, that puts together a history of the kernel code over the years?
 * Official kernel.org documentation is at least a starting-place... but this is not easy reading for people who are unfamiliar with the kernel. Here's a unified kernel git repo covering 0.0.1 to the present. Nimur (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Right, there's some obvious ship of theseus issues in terms of what "original code" means, but it's not clear to me that those are terribly important for answering the OP's title question. The answer is simply "very", though the project also has a life of it's own now, and it's a little unclear what kind of specifics OP is looking for. There may well be the odd line here or there still in the latest kernel that Linus wrote long ago. There are probably not many large continuous chunks that have not been edited in any way since (that's just speculation), but none of that changes the fact that LT has been enormously influential in the development of Linux, and still contributes to its ongoing development. I couldn't find any comprehensive histories in one document, but it the OP is interested in more recent history, the docs here have a periodical series titled "Linux Kernel Development: How Fast it is Going, Who is Doing It, What They are Doing, and Who is Sponsoring...". Though you have to enter a little info to get the downloads, but they outline who the recent major contributors are. Also of historical interest is this copy of some of LT's first emails on the topic of Linux . SemanticMantis (talk) 17:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The comments right at the top say the file is the copyright of Linus Torvalds. Now I've seen people make an argument that how can Torvalds claim copyright of anything when he writes free software. I'm fairly certain these people are mistaken. Claiming copyright just means "I made this". It doesn't implicitly mean "You can't use it unless I allow you to". Is this correct? J I P  &#124; Talk 19:36, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Copyright does mean "you can't use it unless I allow you to". But Linux is distributed under a license that explicitly allows people to use it, modify it, and redistribute it under specified conditions.  It is the copyright that makes that license enforceable.  Wikipedia is also copyrighted, and the Creative Commons license under which it is provided in similar in many ways to Linux's license.Looie496 (talk) 19:52, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not a lawyer, but I don't think that's correct. Copyright says you can't make copies unless I allow you to.  If you've legitimately obtained a copy of a copyrighted work, you can in general use it however you like, and the copyright holder has nothing to say about it, as long as you don't copy it or create a derivative work.
 * Of course, computers generally function by making local copies of things (caches), but I have not heard of any application of copyright law that focused on that sort of under-the-hood copying. I would be interested to hear if there were any such.  I would expect that, at least in the United States, caching would be considered to be fair use.
 * The GPL restricts redistribution, not use. Again, not a lawyer, but it's my understanding that you can download a GPL's work and use it to your heart's content, without accepting the license, as long as you don't redistribute it.
 * I would also be interested to hear, from anyone who knows, how this analysis applies to the AGPL. --Trovatore (talk) 21:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * OK. So in the licence, the copyright holder can explicitly grant people permission to use his/her work. It still retains a mention that the copyright holder made the work, so it's not in the public domain, although freely usable. Is this correct? Here in Finland, people have been using the name "PD", abbreviated from "Public Domain" for decades to mean any software distributed under a more general licence than for-profit commercial software. It has taken me many years to get my head around the details. J I P  &#124; Talk 19:56, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, one of the comments about Torvalds claiming copyright was about his Sinclair QL program GMOVE, which he submitted to MikroBitti, and received a small monetary reward (in the order of 10 - 20 € in current money) for it. This was years before the famous incident when he found out that he had to use a UNIX system but couldn't afford a commercial one, so he found the GNU project for a free UNIX system and decided to write a kernel for it. So with this in mind, I find the people who claim Torvalds couldn't have claimed copyright for GMOVE to be ignorant and hypocritical. J I P  &#124; Talk 20:02, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * (ec) Correct. The licensing restrictions of Free Software ("Free as in speech, not free as in beer") actually require copyright to function. If there was no copyright on the code, then there wouldn't really be a legal mechanism to require recipients to conform to the licensing terms. -- On the original question, it's important to note that Linus is still the main director of the Linux kernel. Even if he doesn't write a single new line of code himself, he's the one who is reviewing all the changes of others which go into the "official" version of the kernel. So in that sense he's still contributing to the code - not necessarily by writing it himself, but by being the final arbiter of what does and does not get into the source code. (e.g. Many people would say that the design and creation of the iPhone is due to Steve Jobs - now he didn't sit at a drafting board, or write any engineering specs, and he certainly didn't assemble anything, but the iPhone is his, under the same arguments by which the auteur theory operates.) -- 160.129.138.186 (talk) 20:09, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Android version
I have an LG G2 phone running the basic preinstalled software, nothing fancy as I'm no techy, as will become abundantly clear in this thread. Searching online for a solution to my contacts opening very very slowly, I saw someone else with the same problem updated their phone Android version to 4.4.4. My LG tells me it's running 4.4.2, which makes me think this fix will help me, too. But when I go to look for a software update, it tells me it's up to date.

Questions:
 * Is there a good reason why I shouldn't or can't upgrade to 4.4.4?
 * If it's not a problem, what's a safe, easy way for a technostupid person to do it?

NB Please don't offer other solutions to the slow contacts issue for now - I'll go down that route if this one's fruitless!

Thanks --Dweller (talk) 08:45, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Assuming you are American (as I don't know how telephone companies outside America operate)... You do not control the updates for Android on your phone. The manufacturer has to package a new version of Android for your phone. They send the update to the phone company. The phone company brands it (adds stuff, removes stuff, etc...). Finally, the update is sent to your phone. So, to go to 4.4.4, first LG has to make an update for the LG G2. I believe they are currently at 5.0.2. Then, they send the update to the carrier (Verizon, AT&T, etc...) who have to muck with it. Some carriers will send the latest version quickly. Others will hold off until it becomes a problem and they have to send the latest version. Therefore, to know what version you CAN update to (without rooting the phone), we need to know who your carrier is. 209.149.114.69 (talk) 12:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I checked Verizon and they have the LG G2 at version 5.0 now. See the install instructions here. 209.149.114.69 (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, should've said. I'm British, old boy. Or girl. That's helpful info. I'm with T-mobile. --Dweller (talk) 13:14, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I doubt you're T-mobile any more. More likely EE--Phil Holmes (talk) 10:55, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * T-Mobile announced that the LG G2 was being upgraded to 5.0 back in February 2015. By March 2015, they started rolling out the updates region by region. They *should* be available for you by now. I would go to your local T-Mobile office and ask them what you need to do since your phone is claiming it has no updates available. 209.149.114.69 (talk) 13:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Very helpful! Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

7 inch LCD display screen with HDMI input and can be powered by USB?
Hello everyone. Does anyone know of a 7 inch LCD display screen that can take HDMI input and can be powered by USB? Say 5V at 800+ mA(can't have the amperage go over 2500 mA though)? Also, is there a device that can transmit an HDMI signal wirelessly? I know of Miracast but I do not want to use WiFi. I was thinking something along the lines of using Bluetooth to do this. The reason I ask is because i want a wireless means of hooking up a display screen to my Raspberry Pi 2. This is because I am going to implant it into my electric guitar. Thus, the more external cables I can eliminate the better. Thanks for your help in advance, —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * What's the screen going to display ? If it's something that can be prerecorded, then that might be another option. StuRat (talk) 14:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The screen will be displaying an image of a desktop computer(Its actually a Raspberry Pi 2. Basically, I want a small wireless tablet like monitor. Think, your monitor that your seeing now, but size that down to 7 inches, and make it wireless. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 14:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In that case, I should mention that you won't be able to see as much on the screen on the smaller version. Compared to a 21 inch screen, that's 1/9th the area, so it's unlikely you will be able to get the same resolution, or, even if you could, you wouldn't be able to read it when that small.  So, you will only be able to display a few readable lines per screen, by going to a huge font, low resolution, etc. StuRat (talk) 00:04, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Mouser (one electronics parts distributer I use, selected at random) found almost 2,000 products matching a 7 inch LCD display. NewEgg, an electronics retailer, carries a few dozen and might be more able to supply procucts that meet your needs.  Are you looking for a finished product (i.e. a device in a plastic case with a stand that you can put on your desk)?  Component electronics that you will attach into an enclosure you are building (i.e. a display device on a circuit board that you will attach to your device)?  What is your budget?  Are you seeking compatibility with, say, a Raspberry Pi?
 * If you narrow the request a little, we can send you to a more appropriate retailer, or even to a specific device model; but as it stands, this request is pretty open-ended.
 * Here are some links to get you started: Category:Electronic component distributors, Category:Consumer electronics retail companies of the United States. Nimur (talk) 14:48, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * My budget is nothing over 200$. And I want compatibility with the Raspberry Pi 2. I am looking for a finished product. However, if it is cheaper to get an unfinished version, and put an exterior case, then by all means I will get that. Think, your monitor that your seeing now, but size that down to 7 inches and as thin as a tablet, and make it wireless. For the wireless part, I was thinking of something like a little HDMI stick that I could put into the Pi's HDMI port that would send the signal to the display screen. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 14:53, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * At $200, you should be able to get a Mimo. It is a USB powered 7" touchscreen. 209.149.114.69 (talk) 14:59, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Can it receive a wireless HDMI signal? I am thinking that there might be an HDMI adapter to transmit the HDMI signal from the Pi the the display device. Not a fan of the touchscreen part. I don't like touchscreens. I am hoping to get a touchpad for a mouse(you know, like the ones on laptops) and a travel sized wireless keyboard. This would eliminate the need for a touchscreen device. Besides, I don’t know if a Raspberry Pi can use a touchscreen an input device. The touchscreen also would not solve the keyboard problem. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 15:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I've never seen a USB monitor that received video from anything except the USB. The whole point of the ones I've seen is that there is one and only one cable from the main device and the monitor. So, you are looking for something that is a bit different than the main purpose for those screens. 209.149.114.69 (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, That Is a really good idea. However, the whole purpose of the USB thing, is to power it via USB. The reason behind that, is I am going to have a detached power pack that will give the display power via USB. I want the display screen to be completely detached from the guitar(where the computer, A.K.A Raspberry Pi will be located) I want to be able to walk around with the display screen(this will be limited by range of the wireless display signal). I think what I really want is an adapter that can plug into an HDMI port and will transmit the signal wirelessly. Then have another adapter that will plug into the display screen's HDMI port and will receive the wireless HDMI signal. Does this make any sense? It seems pretty complicated to me. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 18:23, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

As something to note: I want the display screen to be USB powered because, I plan on making the system portable by using one of those smart phone battery extenders to power the Pi, and another one to power the display screen. I saw one in a store one time that could extend a smart phone's battery life by 10 hours. The Pi uses a maximum of 800 mA at 5V. So using one of these battery extenders would last a long time for my purpose. I think that these devices are essentially mini rechargeable Li-Po batteries. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 15:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * For less than $200, you can buy a display, and a battery, and an Intel Atom computer to control the display: here's the ASUS Z300C tablet. You can use software, like X11 forwarding or VNC, to remotely view the content on your Raspberry Pi.  Nimur (talk) 18:17, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * So what your saying is, buy a tablet, and use it to VNC into the Pi? I won't have it hooked up to any WiFi network or any network. What exactly is X11 forwarding? If X11 forwarding has anything to do with sending the Pi's display data to another device over a network, then again this will not work since I will not be hooked up to any form of network. That is why I was think of something like Bluetooth or some other form of wireless communication. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 18:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * X11 forwarding is one of many ways to remotely access the UI provided by an application on a Linux-like system.
 * You can set up an ad-hoc 802.11 WiFi network; or you can bring a router with you... you can use ethernet...
 * ...How were you planning to transmit HDMI data wirelessly? Were you planning to build your own radio link?  There is no standard, easy-to-use, consumer-grade technology to transmit HDMI over a wireless link.  The best alternatives will be to use an existing WiFi or internet link to transport application-layer video-, image-, and GUI- data.  (Well, perhaps there are a few toys available that claim to transmit and receive video data: they accept input HDMI in to the transmitter, and provide HDMI out of the receiver... I have no experience with those, but I am inclined to say that they are not actually "transmitting HDMI" signal - that would require hundreds, even thousands, of megahertz of bandwidth, which isn't practical for any wireless transmitter! So they are almost certainly sending compressed video data, which may be acceptable for your purposes).
 * Nimur (talk) 18:29, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Would you know where to get one of those devices? If so, are they as big as a USB thumb drive? This is what I was hoping for. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 18:39, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, I was wondering if there is a small adapter that can plug into an HDMI port and would wirelessly send the video data(not the audio data) to another little adapter that will receive the signal and send it into what ever it's plugged into. If push comes to shove, I could use a WiFi adapter and send the HDMI signal via Miracast to another small WiFi adapter that is plugged into the display device. This however, would make things much more complicated, as for I would have to run an OS to receive the Miracast signal and display it. Thus consuming more power, and making things much more complicated to send the signal. I could send the output of the Pi's NTSC analog signal over wireless, but the resolution would look horrible. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 18:37, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I really think you should re-think the enterprise. You don't need to send full video-rate frame data in order to have a graphical user interface that can control a remote computer (even if the remote computer is a Raspberry Pi).  In fact, that is poor use of power, bandwidth, wireless spectrum, and engineering time.  You can use a display and a graphical interface to send command and control signals to the Raspberry Pi via a much simpler mechanism - and render the GUI locally.  $200 will buy you an iPod Touch, which you can program (or you can use the iPod to access a web interface into a custom web-service you program and host on the Pi).  This is a significantly easier task from a technical point of view, and you'll also own an iPod, which is (in addition to being a display) also a fully-functional, programmable mobile vector-processing supercomputer.  Nimur (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, but I won't have a net connection on the Pi. I mean face it, what guitarist, is going to have to have a net connection during a concert for his guitar? The goal of this project, is to have a completely portable guitar that has an integrated computer that can run any VST effect/plugin ever created. This gives one an unlimited range of tonal possibilites. Pert of that, is having a portable means of viewing, and controlling the integrated PC. I already have the keyboard and mouse system worked out, but I am still needing to work out the design of the display. Sending the video, or accessing the desktop over the net is a really cool idea. But not very practical for the application that I am going to be doing. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * SGA314, before attempting this sort of thing, you do really need to understand the difference between:
 * A network connection and an internet connection;
 * A server and a client;
 * A fat client and a thin client.
 * The guitar (client) doesn't have to be connected to the internet, but it does need to be connected to the PC (server). Using an existing network protocol to communicate between them will be a lot easier than trying to design a new one to stream the video from the computer. Tevildo (talk) 10:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I no know what the difference is between a network, and the internet. I also know what a server and a client is. I thought that Nimur was talking about using the internet to access the Pi's desktop. I have not however, heard of the terms Fat client and Thin client. I will be reading what those are about. My main thing is portability. I don't want to have to have another computer just to access the computer I have built into my guitar. But, I can add on a WiFi adapter and use it as a Host. Or, I could get a cheap 7inch tablet like Nimur was talking about, and use it as a host, and connect my Pi to its WiFi. Then I use X11 forwarding to access the desktop. This options seems very complicated. So it isn't the preferred option, but I will go with it if it comes down to it. My other option is to just hook up the display screen directly to the Pi via an HDMI cable. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 18:59, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * ...My point is, WiFi (the 802.11 protocol family, with TCP/IP) is a really great way to get lots of data to move wirelessly from one device to another device less than a hundred feet away. If you use technologies that work on top of WiFi, and TCP/IP, you reap many benefits: reliability, versatility, ease-of-use.  Many other people use these technologies; it will be easy to get help when something breaks.  These standard technologies are supported by almost every commercially-available mobile computer device that you can buy. If you use some special custom wireless transceiver, you'll be on your own to debug it.
 * When you use WiFi, you have so many options to choose from to meet your final application requirements. Among the many options are a "web-server"-like interface - e.g. a LAMP server or a CGI script that acts as the front-end to your audio program.  These standard stacks of technologies bring ease-of-use, reliability, and a huge community of other users.  It is worth your time to research those options.  These options are great for people who want to complete a task without spending many years to engineer a ground-up solution.  Nimur (talk) 17:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You can use the USB port for using the 5 volts only. Note: The maximum current differs with the USB version. USB ports are fuse protected or otherwise protected to prevent over currents on shortcuts. Good equipment used poly switching fuses. Low cost equipment uses a wire on the PCB designed as a fuse. Once blown, it is a permanent damage. Chargers with USB jack sometimes do not supply a stable output voltage. It is still limited to 5 volts and the maximum specified current. USB devices are 5 volts tolerant 3.3 volts equipment. Getting one of that chargers modified to a stable supply, components storing hazardous voltage needs to be touched during this work. If You are not an engineer or fully understand what You are doing, keep aware of it. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 15:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Windows 10 doesn't turn off my computer when shutting down
I have had Windows 10 for a couple of weeks and like it a lot. A problem, though, is that it doesn't turn off my computer when shutting down. I can hardly believe they would ship a version (even the dreaded x.0 version) which does(n't do) such a thing, but I can't see how I could be doing anything wrong. Any advice? --Halcatalyst (talk) 15:51, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * If you have an older computer, it could be the hybrid shutdown/fast startup feature that is enabled by default. For some older computers, it fails to shut down completely. The fix is rather simple. In power options (search for it using the new "search" tool), you should see a settings change option. Turn off or uncheck fast startup. Save the settings. Now, it shouldn't try to do a hybrid shutdown (or the related fast startup). 209.149.114.69 (talk) 16:01, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I followed your suggestions and and after I unclicked the fast startup box he machine indeed turned off. Thank you.


 * I was amazed this morning to find that the entire boot process was much MUCH FASTER! Both the part before the sign-in and the loading of applications. I would be interested in knowing how that happened. Thanks again. --Halcatalyst (talk) 12:25, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It only loaded the operating system. What the fast startup does is load everything you had running when you shut down. So, if you are like most people and you have 20-30 web pages open, your email open (and a few unsent emails sitting around waiting to be finished), At least 10 documents you are working on, a few games running, but minimized, streaming from Pandora, Youtube, and plaing local MP3s all at the same time, etc... Then it takes a while to load all that back up. In theory, you get back to where you were when you shut down "faster", even though the time to get logged in is slower. 75.139.70.50 (talk) 15:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Interesting that it does the exact opposite of what it say it will do. The assumption that the user wants all the running apps restarted seem highly dubious to me.  In fact, I typically only reboot when I want to quickly stop all that crap from running. StuRat (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Firefox hyphenating Finnish?
I just viewed the article about astatine on the Finnish Wikipedia (fi:astatiini) and found out that on the rendered page, a Finnish word going across the line boundary was hyphenated, even though it was not hyphenated in the wiki source text. As a test, I resized the browser window, and found out that Firefox was dynamically trying to hyphenate some long words. It did mostly correct, but made a minor error in one word: it hyphenated the word lyhytikäisiä ("short-lived", plural partitive case) as lyhy-tikäisiä, treating it as a monolithic word, when in fact it is a compound word from lyhyt ("short") and ikäisiä ("lived", plural partitive case), and it should be hyphenated lyhyt-ikäisiä, because Finnish grammar states that when hyphenating compound words, the hyphen should go exactly between the word parts whenever possible, never ever leaving one single letter stranded on the wrong side.

Now my question is, is this a standard feature of Firefox? How long has Firefox been doing this? Is this for Finnish only or does this happen with other languages? Is this specific for Linux? I am running Firefox 38.0.5 on Fedora 20 Linux. J I P &#124; Talk 19:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It's not Firefox's fault—there's an invisible soft hyphen after "lyhy" in the article source. Current: lyhy­tikäisiä. Corrected: lyhyt­ikäisiä or lyhyt&amp;shy;ikäisiä. I would fix it, but I don't want to imply, by editing the Finnish Wikipedia, that I'm competent to edit the Finnish Wikipedia. -- BenRG (talk) 22:35, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In fact, if when viewing the wiki source text you resize the Firefox window you're viewing it in, you can see the hyphen coming and going in the source. Looks weird to me, but it makes sense. --65.94.50.17 (talk) 22:56, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The soft hyphen has been there since the text was added in 2010.[//fi.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Astatiini&diff=8762361&oldid=8630550] Maybe the editor copied it from a text editor or other place where a soft hyphen had been inserted without their knowledge. I sometimes insert soft hyphens in Wikipedia to allow breaking a long word in a table cell so the whole column can become less wide, but I always use  instead of the actual character so others can see what is going on. Maybe they don't know what   means but if they wonder why a word breaks then they can guess it must have something to do with it. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:43, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Cite templates not functioning
Last night I tried to use some of the templates in the Cite toolbar, but they were not functioning. The same is true today in both Chrome and Firefox. Is someone working on that problem? I have been using the "Edit" option as an alternative, but I prefer "Edit source" with the templates when they are working. Eddie Blick (talk) 21:11, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * This was discussed at Village pump (technical)/Archive 139. It should be fixed now. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:27, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It is working properly now. Thanks!Eddie Blick (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2015 (UTC)