Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2017 March 24

= March 24 =

WINE on Windows
I have old versions of Corel Paint Shop Pro that still ran fine on Windows 7, but on Windows 10, the installers just stall during the "module registration" step, in fact so badly I have to use the task manager to kill the installer. The entire programs are then on my disk, including a desktop icon, but when I click the icons, the programs will freeze on the start screen. All this also happens when I'm using the various backwards compatibility modes of Windows 10. The reason why I need these old Paint Shop Pro versions is because I have many self-made scanning and color balance presets for them that most likely won't work with newer versions.

Many people have told me to use Wine on top of Windows 10 to fix this by simulating XP or Windows 7 within Wine, but all the Wine wikis and how-tos tell me that Wine is not made to be installed on top of Windows. So how does this work? I've found, but those instructions seem a tad outside my abilities as a Windows user who's used to just click setup EXEs, or, at outmost, open .rar or .zip archives and drop a tiny program EXE anywhere on my harddisk.

Or is there any other XP or Windows 7 emulator I could use for this? --2003:71:4E33:E510:FC1A:665C:E7A8:5408 (talk) 02:10, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't damage Your installed operating system with old and now incompatible software. Btw I am using GIMP, Hugin (software), Inkscape and Dia (software) for such application.
 * On Windows 7 You can use Microsoft virtual pc. The link to kegel.com, You posted, lists scripts and commands with "/cygdrive", which sounds to my as cygwin or Cygwin/X is used to give Wine (software) an environment to run. The the Kegel website also wrote from a Windows 7 environment. Careful which software and versions were used. Emluated software is faster executed only when the original platform was much slower than CPUs from today. An other idea is to install VirtualBox and setup an old OS as virtual machine which may require a license in some cases. If Your computer does not have 8 GB of RAM and a CPU less 4 full cores, and/or a set of supported extra CPU registers to swap quickly into and from the virtual machine, I guess You may not be lucky with an host system which runs several other software on Windows 10. I mean save Your time. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 10:21, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Long story short: If I have an old WindowsXP Professional 64-bit CD right here, I can use VirtualBox? --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 17:50, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Update: the path is set in the system varibles, run: sysdm.cpl -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 10:32, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I run XP on my W10 box using Bochs - works fine. I also have a couple of Linux distros running too. --TrogWoolley (talk) 12:04, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Uhhh...I've found this, which makes Bochs look more like a programming language for DOS than an OS emulator to me. As said, I'm only used to click setup EXEs. --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 17:59, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Um, that PDF opens with "Bochs is a C++ program which simulates a complete Intel x86 computer."
 * I'm sorry if this seems flippant, but using Wine on Windows is like using google translate to translate pages written into your native language into Swahili then back into your native language: Sure, it'll work, but the result will be weird and the effort wasted. Use a virtual machine and install an older version of windows using one of your old install disks. If you don't have any old disks, you can buy them online on the cheap (so long as they're not Windows 7). Personally, I recommend VirtualBox because it's simple to use, and most importantly, free. It's also one of those click-setup-and-then-just-keep-clicking-okay-until-you're-done programs. You can find the installation instructions here. For the record, I have years of experience working in CS and decades of experience with computers in general, and I'm right there with you on how I like my software to be installed. Any software (I'm looking at you, SLIME and AWS) that requires me to edit environmental variables and registry keys and write new permission policies to install is an example of lazy programming, IMHO. I've yet to encounter an install process that requires technical information that isn't accessible through the WinAPI. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  18:40, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, due to Hans Haase's post above, I've already looked into VirtualBox, but after clicking through a lot of documentations and the forum for an hour, it seems to me like I'll have to study programming sciences at a university for a few years before I'll even understand 99% of the entire terminology used in the docs and tutorials there. Plus, it seems to me like it's an official requirement to work at a computer business company or even run a company like that if I just want to join the VirtualBox help forums run by Oracle. I'm used to just click setup EXEs or use a GUI like BootCamp where all I do is burn a CD with Apple drivers by means of one click, then pop in a Windows installation CD and click run within BootCamp, telling it on what HD it has to install Windows to. Watch it install Windows, boot Windows, pop in the Apple drivers CD, run setup, done. I'm not used to anything like a DOS box aka cmd or whatever it's called. I don't even understand 99% of all the caveats and myriads of bypackages I have to look out for as according to the VirtualBox documentation and tutorials or what all those supposedly critical components are even there for that I supposedly need or else I won't even be able to install VitualBox. The FAQs with "known bugs" and solutions seem to me like they're both written in Chinese. The VirtualBox docs make it look like I'll have to write Windows from scratch or something to even just install VirtualBox or any OS with it. I mean, if it's supposed to be so easy, there should be some step-by-step guide on how to run Windows XP on Windows 10 that somebody can understand who's been clicking install EXEs for 25 years, right? --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 18:50, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not used to anything like a DOS box aka cmd or whatever it's called. You don't have to use the command line. The first option on the installation page is "double click the executable". All of the other stuff mentioned there is about what to do if you require certain configurations, which I don't think you will need at all. The last time I installed it, I double clicked the setup file, then kept clicking okay until it was done. Don't let all the additional technical information fool you, it's really simple. As for the forums, I have an account there. If you have any questions that you can't find the answer to, I'd be happy to post them for you (if I can't answer them myself, of course). I'm sure there are a number of other editors here with the same access and willingness to help. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  19:26, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, okay, I'll try download and run the EXE. Thank you for your offer to help me with the forums, but looking over those, I don't even understand any of the questions people ask there nor any of the answers they're given. --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 19:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll let you in on a little secret: That's true of me and most of the other members, as well, and that forum is probably the least technical one Oracle hosts.  ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  19:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, first try to run the EXE and I've just aborted it. It tells me it's gonna mess with my network settings somehow. Will I not be able to get back on the internet and get help here? My "network setup" so far is that I've plugged the power sockets of my router and my PC in and turned both of them on, and that's how I got on the internet. I don't know what to do in Windows if VirtualBox changes anything in there, so I may get stuck without a way to get back here. --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure exactly what you're seeing, but it seems to me like what it's asking you is if this virtual machine should have access to your network settings. I know that you will be asked about network settings, USB settings and python support. You shouldn't need any of those to run an XP-era copy of Corel PSP. If you're very uncomfortable doing this (which seems to be the case from how you described your network setup), then I'd advise you to find someone willing to do the installation for you. It doesn't take much to buffer your system against damaging changes (it's functionality built right in to windows), but it's still a little bit in-depth, and adding that to what you're already doing seems like taking on too much. The Geek Squad should be able to help for not too much money, assuming you don't know anyone else. I'd offer to connect to your machine and do it remotely, but frankly, taking me up on that is an extremely bad idea. I could be the most malicious hacker in the world, for all you know. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  20:07, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I remember that message, too. VirtualBox is just saying that you may get temporarily disconnected while it installs the virtual LAN adapter stuff (for shared folders etc.) Asmrulz (talk) 20:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I should've probably been a bit more specific about the message. It's telling me it's gonna disconnect my network, but you can guarantee me it's gonna be restored? --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 20:46, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd like to, but the odds of ninjas suddenly attacking you and stealing your router before the installation finishes is non-zero. Ridiculously small, but non-zero nonetheless. ;) (In all seriousness, it should be just fine. If we are your only source of CS expertise, it wouldn't be a bad idea to take my earlier advice about letting someone else help you set it up.) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  20:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't remember I had any network problems from installing VirtualBox, so I'd say, go right ahead Asmrulz (talk) 20:56, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks to you guys, VirtualBox is installed, and now it's telling me to create a virtual disk. Is that like a Linux on-the-fly CD where I'm running Linux purely from RAM? But it's telling me I'll need a storage device of at least 10 GB. --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 21:55, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Once you've installed VirtualBox, click the "New" button. It'll ask you for the name and type of the virtual machine. The name can be anything but the type should match the system you're actually installing (Windows XP, say.) Next, it'll ask you for the amount of RAM and whether you want to create a virtual harddisk. That's just a (huge) file that is a sector-by-sector image of the hard disk the guest OS will be using. I'd just go with default suggestions here. A "dynamically allocated" harddisk only occupies as much as there is real data on the emulated hard disk, whereas a "fixed size" harddisk occupies whatever is the emulated hard disk's nominal size (this only matters to the "host" OS. From the p.o.v. of the "guest" (virtualized) OS, the hard disk is fixed size either way.) I'd choose dynamically allocated. Now you have created a virtual machine. Now click Start. It'll offer you to boot from a CD. Insert your Windows XP CD and choose "Host drive" (this just means the virtual machine can access the actual, physical CD drive - as well it should.) After this, the XP installation should start. When it's complete, you'll have a virtual machine running Windows XP that you can install PSP in Asmrulz (talk) 22:22, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Dynamically allocated is not available. The options given are No harddisk, Create harddisk, and Use existing harddisk. What worries me here is that it sounds a bit like I'm about to mount a new harddisk complete with formatting it, so I may somehow lose my current Windows 10 system by accidentally formatting my C: drive. --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 22:48, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, yes, "create virtual", then "create", then "VDI" -> "next" -> "dynamically allocated" Asmrulz (talk) 22:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thing is, am I accidentally formatting my C: disk system this way? --2003:71:4E33:E579:99A6:DDE:9236:745C (talk) 22:54, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) It shouldn't format the real hard disk, but XP (or 7) will offer you to format the hard disk. That's the virtual hard disk which of course you can format Asmrulz (talk) 22:56, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * and, generally, you can do whatever in the virtual machine ("guest" system), and it shouldn't break the "host" system Asmrulz (talk) 23:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * It's important to understand that the "hard disk" being referred to by VirtualBox is a virtual hard disk.  That is, it's not a real hard disk, it's just a file on your Windows machine that VirtualBox is going to pretend is a Linux hard disk.  As mentioned above, you can do anything you want to that virtual (fake) hard disk, including formatting it, and it won't affect your real disk.  It will only affect the file that is pretending to be a hard disk.  CodeTalker (talk) 23:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, Windows XP setup is running now (first time I'm ever able to use an old, discarded 64-bit XP CD originally bought for a first-gen Mac Pro that BootCamp always refused to acknowledge). Looks like this "VirtualMachine" is a tiny window rather than fullscreen (at least during the install so far). Top menu gives me the ability to fullscreen, but the keystrokes to minimize it again after that look a bit cryptic to me. What key is "host"? --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 23:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, and another problem...how do I "register" this old XP 64-bit? I mean, it's gonna stop working after 30 days if I don't register it, right? Online registering doesn't seem to work as the VirtualMachine doesn't seem to be able to access the internet. --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 00:01, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * right ctrl, I think. It should say the first time you go into Fullscreen. Install the Guest additions, too, after the install's done (Devices->Insert Guest additions CD, then open the CD in My Computer in the virtual machine), it'll improve interoperability (seamless mode, automatic resizing, mouse integration etc) Asmrulz (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think box versions such as yours will register, but OEM versions which are tied to the physical machine, won't. As to internet access in general, there's a network icon in the lower right corner, right-click it and select "connect network adapter". And it should say "Attach to: NAT" in Settings->Network Asmrulz (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * a.) The shortcut it's telling me to use when displaying the fullscreen warning is "host + F1". As I have no idea what that means, I just cancel the fullscreen mode before it takes effect.


 * b.) When I select Insert guest additions CD, nothing happens at all.


 * c.) I don't wanna "export" anything from XP to Windows 10. I just wanna use these old versions of PSP that don't run under Windows 10. The templates I'm talking about only work in these old versions of PSP. So it seems I still need a way on how to register this old XP.


 * d.) Okay, I've been able to find the "Connect netowrk cable" button in the lower right corner, but both IE and the registration window still can't access the web. --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 00:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * On second thought, I do wanna export stuff from XP to Windows 10, and that's the files I'll scan and edit with PSP. It seems I need "Shared directories" for that, right? But when I'm trying to create a "Shared directory", it's telling me that no "guest additions" exist. Oh, and is there a way to switch the monitor setup from 4:3 to 16:9? That switch used to be integrated in the resolution slider at "Display" in "System control", but now, only 4:3 resolutions seem available. --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 01:03, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * "host+F1" is Left Ctrl+F1 if the host key is actually Left-Ctrl. Mine is, but I don't know if that's the default setting or I changed it sometime. There's an icon in the lower right corner to set up the host key. Asmrulz (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The Guest additions CD will appear in the guest OS's CD folder. Open it like you would a physical CD and install what's on it. Asmrulz (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * No internet is very odd. Normally it just works Asmrulz (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * You'll be able to change resolutions after installing the Guest additions Asmrulz (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, set up Shared folders, then you can access a folder on the host system as a network drive (In the "guest" (virtualized) system: Connect network drive -> any letter -> Network neighborhood -> VBoxSvr). Anything you copy there from under either system will be visible in the other and vice versa Asmrulz (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, it seems the "Guest additions" feature works as wonkily as the BD drive when accessed by the VirtualMachine version of XP. In Windows Explorer within XP, the BD drive is always displayed as "Guest additions", no matter what disk is inserted, but when it's not my XP install CD, I get error messages when clicking the drive and nothing happens when I use "Insert guest additions CD" from the top menu. Having realized this, I've made it to install the guest additions now, and at least I now have a 16:9 display and shared directories work. But web access is still impossible from within XP, hence no XP registration. --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 01:24, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Ah, thanks for telling me about this setting for the BD drive. In any case, the web issue is getting weirder by the minute: By now, I've made it to install and set up PSP, and after I've made it to install the "guest additions", re-booted and started PSP again, PSP was telling me that "free Corel updates" would be available for PSP. I clicked "Download free PSP update", and it did just that, but within IE and for XP registration purposes, the web is still as dead as a doornail. --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 01:30, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * This can be. I had that recently where the old IE (IE7?) that comes with XP was saying there was no internet but there was. Downloaded and installed Firefox via the shared folder. I reverted my CD drive remark because edit conflict Asmrulz (talk) 01:45, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmph, now the issue that XP Professional 64-bit was so rare is making problems again. The XP itself is 64-bit, but the 64-bit version of Firefox can't be installed because it requires at least Windows 7. And Firefox 32-bit can't recognize XP Professional 64-bit as any legitimate OS at all, just like it used to be with BootCamp back on my 1st gen Mac Pro. --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 01:55, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...to be more exact, the exact failure msg on Firefox 32-bit was that it requires XP SP2, so I located that and tried to install it via shared directory, but turned out that it's not for XP Professional 64-bit and hence can't be installed. So I had to google again for the Windows 2003 version of Service Pack 2, a file that's so rare I found it uploaded to a forum. Installed it, then finally Firefox 32-bit would install. Web access just fine on Firefox now, but still not able to register/activate XP. Could it be they've discontinued the original XP registration/activation server? I wonder if I can still use phone activation/registration for XP...especially at 3:30am! --2003:71:4E33:E579:784C:E95A:C19E:91BD (talk) 02:41, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * the support for XP was discontinued in April 2014, yes. I don't know if that's the reason why it won't register, though Asmrulz (talk) 17:30, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

With support ended for XP, I would honestly just install a corporate or hacked copy. Microsoft is no longer even looking for people running bootleg XP, so while it's technically illegal, it's pragmatically legit. (Note before you worry about the technicalities, that kissing/hugging/patting/touching/getting too close to someone without asking permission first is technically illegal, as well.) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  12:52, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Success! Phone activation/registration still worked, if only as a series of tape-recorded messages to be navigated by means of typing in numbers on my phone! Everything is fine now and I'd like to thank you guys so much for your support with working VirtualBox out, especially Asmrulz and partly CodeTalker. I guess ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants  was also meaning well, but in his replies he was kinda overestimating my knowledge in computer sciences. So far, everything looks fine now, but I may get back to you guys if I won't get my scanner to work in XP. It's a CanoScan 8400F which AFAIK was originally made for XP and which I've mostly used on Windows 7. On Windows 7, it installed itself once I plugged it in, and with genuine XP, it's too long ago for me to remember whether I've installed it in any way. --79.242.218.158 (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

hfc nbn in australia
Hi, I have the nbn in Australia, and I am in an  HFC region. I've been trying to ask around for what I need to do, and no one, and not the internet, seems particularly clear. The nbn is live, now, and ready to go in my area. I do not have an actual cable (HFC) outlet in my apartment. Who installs the cable outlet? Do I need an electrician? Every website says a basic install is free, and taken care of by (I think) the provider (eg Optus, Telstra or iiNet). I don't know if the provider then gets reimbursed by the nbn, or exactly what happens, I'm just reporting what I've been told.

Then, if I need an electrician, do they come first, then I go to the provider (Optus etc)? Or do I get the provider first, and they sort out an electrician?

If an electrician comes, will they be able to add a cable outlet inside my premises? I don't see how they can rewire the house, and thread a cable through the walls. Not sure how exactly this is supposed to work. IBE (talk) 03:40, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not form AU, but in the article NBN notes „wholesale“ which I understand regarding the Wikipedia article the network services are being resold by providers. Taking a look to other nations, providers tunnel their customers data by VPN and feed at a backbone to the internet. There customers internet usage can be monitored. So I recommend You to ask local internet service providers (ISPs) for solutions and pricing. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 08:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, naturally, I've been asking, but they don't seem to know everything, or perhaps even very much. Response times for email queries are also slow - you folks are generally the quickest ;) IBE (talk) 09:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * When every try would fail, see: Telecommunications in Australia -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 10:05, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The ISP does the work. After you buy the plan from your ISP, they ring you up to make an appointment for their contractor to do the installation. Sleigh (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but are you sure of this? I continued doing my own research, and came across this: . This is an faq from Australian provider, Westnet. See the entry: "Can I use existing wiring/smart wiring?" It seems pretty clear to me that I have to take care of all cabling. But you may have more direct first-hand experience, or it may vary with different providers. So please let me know if this is the case, because it now appears (unhappily) like it's my problem. IBE (talk) 23:41, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Installation to your specific residence (rather than just the property or street) is almost always done by the ISP or an electrician/technician contracted by the ISP. Westnet's FAQ answer that you've cited is referring to internal wiring on your local network, usually to have several ethernet access points around the house, and has no effect on the connection between the ISP and your modem/router. You'll note that the answer says that a typical installation does include "installation of the Network Boundary Point (typically the nbn™ Connection Box or first wall socket, depending on your nbn™ technology)", which is what you're after. Sellyme Talk  02:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Gee, thanks - I didn't get what the Connection box was - I thought it meant the thing outside the premises, not the thing into the premises - wall socket/main box. Information overload, plus Optus had told me something different. IBE (talk) 02:06, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Linux (Bash) expert?
You might be able to help here:

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/353076/how-to-indent-an-heredoc-inside-an-heredoc-the-right-way

Ben-Yeudith (talk) 06:05, 24 March 2017 (UTC)