Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2017 September 28

= September 28 =

Clock keeps changing
The clock keeps changing (showing older date and time). I understand the battery could need replacing. But the computer hasn't been off. Is it only when the computer has been off that the clock can change like that? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:37, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * (ec) No, they typically use a non-rechargeable watch battery, such as a CR2032, to run the clock. It doesn't care if the power is on. StuRat (talk) 01:56, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Never mind. I think Windows was changing it and not letting me know. Stupid Windows. And seeing as Windows tries to be really personal, consider that a personal attack against Windows. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:54, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Understood. Thank you, StuRat. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:47, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Electromagnet to wipe HDD and make it new again.
Is there such a thing? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:38, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Wipe it yes, make it new again, no. That is, a strong enough magnetic field could certainly scramble it, but it wouldn't be very usable like that. StuRat (talk) 01:57, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * So it would kill it? When they refurbish HDDs, do they just format it or what? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:46, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * There are usually timing tracks and hardware formatting indicators that should never be erased. If they were erased it would need a factory format to put it back, and the drive itself may not be able to do that. To erase, a degausser can be used. This has an alternating magnetic field, and the item is gradually withdrawn from it. Mearly having a static field could just add to the magnetism in the drive and leave the data still there and readable. But pushing the magnetism backwards and forwards will remove all trace. A way to do an erasure is to write random data multiple times to completely cover the disk. |The Apple Mac has such a feature built in.  But you may not be sure that you erased all the disk, as that may include bad blocks, spare blocks, data past the end, track 0 etc. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:37, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I understand. Thank you. So, what if I have a HDD that has a virus on it. Would that virus be removed by booting with a windows DVD and only that HDD, and then removing partitions? Would installing Windows on it and then removing Windows from it help to overwrite? What about making partitions and removing them and then making more? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:46, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Removing the partition, creating a new partition using a virus-free operating system (booting with a windows DVD gets you that) and formatting using a full format, not a quick format leaves no place for the virus to lie that hasn't been overwritten. An easy-to-do extra step for the paranoid would be to first partition and format it as FAT and then repartition and reformat it as NTFS. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:08, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * See here and search "once it’s formatted your drive". Below that text is the box that appears when installing win10. The format option is only a single button with no FAT choice, I think. Plus, when formatting, it does it in seconds, so I suspect it's a quick format. I'll check and see to be sure. Cheers. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:23, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

This is not applicable to what Anna Frodesiak is trying to do, but let's say you want to destroy the data on a drive so that even the US/Chinese/Russian government cannot recover it. To do that you would first degauss it and then physically destroy it. The following products are well-regarded in the data destruction industry: These also work great on smartphones. You can rent them if you only need to destroy your data once.
 * TS-1 Hard Drive Degausser
 * PD5 Hard Drive Destroyer
 * Solid-State and Flash Destroyer Accessory for PD5

Just the thing if you happen to be the head of ISIS, an international spy, a major drug cartel, or a US Presidential candidate with something to hide... --Guy Macon (talk) 04:25, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I want to wipe a HDD clean that has a virus on it and be able to use it again. If I wanted to simply make it forever unreadable, I'd ask someone to drop a giant stone on it. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:47, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I just checked using a Windows 10 DVD. The infected HDD can be partitioned, but no FAT option. The format is very quick. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:50, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Thus my comment, "This is not applicable to what Anna Frodesiak is trying to do, but..." And the giant stone would hardly slow down the NSA if you were the head of ISIS, an international spy, a major drug cartel, or a US Presidential candidate with something to hide.


 * You didn't see any option for FAT, FTT32 or eXFAT? And you didn't see a checkbox for quick format? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:05, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Giant stone wouldn't work, understood. :)


 * Yes, in the Windows 10 DVD install disc, there is just what you see at this pic below "once it’s formatted your drive". No options. Just "format" and "partition", no NTFS, FAT, etc. It just does it and automatically does NTFS (which you can see in disk management). Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:16, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh well. I think you are fine. You could accomplish the same thing after everything is set up by telling CCleaner to wipe the free space on that drive, or you could just do nothing The virus that came with the infected verion of CCleaner isn't particularly tricky, doesn't hide information anywhere, and is fully removed by all major antoivisus tools. I think you are fine. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:42, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you!!!!!!

Guy, I can't thank you enough. By the way, I've gotten rid of ccleaner and will never use it again. I've put a lot of programs through this and all looks good. This has really been a pain. My edits dropped to practically nothing during this ordeal. I'm still exhausted and am quite considering throwing the PCs out the window and buying some pencils and pads of paper. Thank you so much for all your good guidance. I tried IRC ##windows and ##security and what you've had to say has been 1000x better. I am so grateful! If there's anything you ever need, please ask. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:08, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Getting data from an infected disc
Is there a way to get data like photos from an infected HDD without the virus coming along for a ride? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:47, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Mostly yes, but there are a few specific exceptions. Here is what you should do:


 * First, get a large capacity thumb drive and move them all there.


 * Next, reformat as discussed in the section above.


 * I am going to do a bit of research before giving you the next step. More in a followup post. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:29, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * [EC] I was going to write a long explanation, but the following website covers everything I was going to say:


 * http://ask-leo.com/can_a_virus_be_transmitted_in_a_picture.html


 * Optional links for the more technically inclined:


 * So the next steps would be:


 * Configure Windows to show extensions and make absolutely sure that your images have the right extension (*.jpg good, *.jpg.exe bad).


 * Scan the images on your thumb drive with virustotal and Windows defender.


 * Copy to your main drive.


 * Reformat the Thumb drive just to be extra paranoid.


 * --Guy Macon (talk) 04:54, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Usually, though not always, viruses only affect and live in various types of executable files (broadly defined). Most, though not all, viruses only target a limited number of such executable files rather than trying to live in every compatible executable file.  Usually it is safe to remove non-executable data from infected hard drives provided you boot the system from an independent, uninfected operating system.  If you know the identity of the virus(es) that have affected your system, then you can often get more specific information on what files are expected to be affected and what steps are appropriate for eliminating the virus and/or rescuing unaffected data.  Dragons flight (talk) 04:38, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * It is the dreaded, recent Ccleaner malware. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:52, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * CCleaner Hacked With Data-Stealing Malware: What to Do Now --Guy Macon (talk) 04:56, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you. However, that gives little advice about what to do. Plus, there are more recent articles, but also with little advice. To let you know, when I tried to run ccleaner last week, AVG said it caught it and removed the program. Whether it did or not, I don't know. All scans with Malwarebytes and AVG look fine now. Plus, I am running a newly installed Win10 on a new HDD. I did, however, grab data from the mirror HDD I had installed at the time, and put it on the current system. I do wonder if this bug followed. Is it likely? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:10, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Somewhere between "very, very unlikely" and "you are more likely to win the lottery and be struck by lightening on the same day". --Guy Macon (talk) 05:13, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, music to my ears. Thank you so, so much! I've been petrified. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:17, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Truck driver's CB radio transmissions over the net
Is there a site that has that? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:48, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * You need to be more specific. Audio samples of random CB conversations? Replacing a CB with an internet connection? Explain in detail what you are trying to accomplish. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:00, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I wanted to listen in live to those big, surly truck drivers talking about whatever they talk about. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:05, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I would suggest searching for trucker citizens band podcasts --Guy Macon (talk) 05:11, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I will do that! Thank you kindly. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:22, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Hows about http://www.cbradioclub.com/view-all-channels.html --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 15:21, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * That link is "forbidden", but thank you anyhow, --jpgordon. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:27, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Huh. Works fine for me. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 23:49, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The link is .htaccess protected by location or IP restrictions. 365 (talk) 13:26, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi --jpgordon and 365. I'm in China, so it could be that. No worries. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:17, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You chinese ? — usernamekiran (talk)  09:05, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Not Chinese but live in China. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:01, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Can you access it using Tor (anonymity network)? --Guy Macon (talk) 10:46, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion, Guy, but I don't want to go around the law. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:26, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Windows safe mode
If I have two HDDs, one with Windows 10. I put in a second, infected HDD and boot up in safe mode. Can the virus on the infected HDD still jump to the Windows system HDD? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:18, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * No. And you don't need safe mode. An uninfected install of Windows 10 will not access the data on the infected second hard disk unless you tell it to. However, by careful that you don't copy anything from the infected disk to your main disk or run any programs on it. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:33, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I see. So don't copy photos from the second HDD to the first? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:03, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Already answered in detail in the "Getting data from an infected disc" section above. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:07, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Ah yes. I missed those links. Reading now. Many, many thanks! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:19, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * A save solution is to boot the computer on the non infected disk. With an proper working antivirus software connect the infected disk by an usb-sata adapter. Antivirus software starts later in the boot up process. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 19:29, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what a usb-sata adapter is, but will look it up. Thank you kindly, Hans Haase. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:26, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Anna Frodesiak, this is an active adapter or bus bridge. Such chips are the basic of an external HDD or a $10…$15 adapter. Connect the SATA drive to the adapter, then plug the USB to the computer. When the HDD appears as an USB stick on the computer. Some of these adapters still also support the IDE/ATA interface for CompactFlash or IDE HDDs and CD/DVD-drives. A CompactFlash-IDE-adapter is passive, it contains just wiring on an PCB, if there are active parts, the generate 3.3 volts from 5 volts input the supply the CompactFlash card. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 05:46, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, I understand now, Hans. This really seems like a good idea. I like it. I will go to the computer shop and see if I can get one. Thank you so much. You are very clever. Also, with autoplay off, connecting the HDD this way will mean any virus there cannot suddenly travel to the main HDD, right? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:41, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Turning off the autoplay feature in windows at first is indeed a good idea. Some antivirus software block it, but never not rely on it. Yes, the antivirus service (daemon) starts within the boot process, wait until it has started, updated and restarted before connecting the infected drive. If the boot sequence fails Your expectations, the computer starts from the infected disk and the virus spreads on the clean disk and other accessible media due the antivirus is down at this time. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 16:50, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi Hans. Understood. And I always turn off autoplay when I first set up Windows. And I always be sure to have good, update anti-virus before doing anything. Perfect. Many thanks again! :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:29, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

another github question
Hello

A few weeks ago I started using github to edit my (LaTeX) thesis, and used 'github issues' to keep track of the many handwritten comments made by the two reviewers. My thesis has 8 chapters, each of which is a separate .tex file.

I work in emacs which means that I can't use the website's editor, so I use "git commit -m 'fixes #123' " from the commandline.

This sort of works but I have a couple of problems:

(1) I need to refer back and forth between my emacs session and the github repository webpage, which is a pain. I might fix an issue in emacs, then wonder if the commit fixes other related issues so have to go back to the webpage to check, and often some lag means that there is an annoying time delay.

(2) I need to type 'git push origin master' after *each* commit so that the repository correctly closes issues as I fix them. I get the impression that this isn't good practice.

(3) quite often I see an issue on my repository webpage and fire up emacs to fix it, then realize that it has already been fixed. What I want to do is to close the issue with a comment "commit XYZ123 fixed this". But I can't find the commit that did fix it. How do I find the relevant commit?

I can't quite figure out the correct way to think here. Can anyone advise? Robinh (talk) 07:53, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I haven't tried it, but it looks as if this page has the relevant information. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:21, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * ...or I misunderstood your question and you already use this, but need an improved workflow. I don't see an obvious way how - if you rely on GitHub's issue tracker, your issues will only be closed when you tell GitHub about the fixes (which happens at the push). I suppose you know that you can close many issues with a single commit, right? If you really type, you should use a shell with a command history and/or alias support (e.g. bash or tcsh). I'll have to say: For a single user project with a lot of small issues, this seems like a heavy process - I'd put the issues as TODOs into an emacs org-mode  buffer, and just work the list down. You can add the org file to git, so the repo will always be up to date with the state of the repo.  But if you have already set up the tracker, it's probably not worth changing. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * For (1), I imagine that if you just alt-tab between the text editor and the github issue tracking, you will not lose a whole lot of time, provided that each issue has a sufficiently meaningful title that the mere sight of the issue list allows you to know which issue might have been solved by the commit (without needing to reopen each issue each time...). Obviously, I must be missing something.
 * For (2), this sounds weird. A quick-and-dirty solution is to script the whole commit-and-push process; from (assuming you use bash), I gather that the following untested line might do the trick:  creates the alias, and then you just use commitandpush "the commit message" each time. Well actually it creates an alias that will create a function on the fly when it needs to be used. It may be cleaner to use a function. But obviously, the root problem is not solved. If you use keywords to close issues (see link from Stephan Schulz) I would imagine that you would not need to use one push per commit. You might want to post on a specialized forum, e.g. stackexchange if you are sure of that behavior.
 * For (3), if we assume a scenario where you unknowingly fix an issue and a week later want to find which commit fixed it, you could try searching the commit history for modifications around the line where the change happened. I know enough to know the relevant tool is git-blame, but not enough to actually use it, though seems promising for your case.  Tigraan Click here to contact me 17:06, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

(OP) thanks guys. I guess that single-developer projects with 300 very minor issues simply isn't a good use-case for github/emacs/latex. I've discovered 'ghi' which is a massive help for tracking issues from the commandline. Thanks everyone, Robinh (talk) 01:55, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, Emacs is always part of the answer, no matter what the question was ;-). And LaTex is part of the answer as long as the question involves some sort of printable text. To be honest, for my thesis, I got a list of issues as a text email and/or some red marks on printed paper, and just worked down the list, writing "done" or just putting a checkmark. But that was a while ago, and the issues were all small and could be fixed atomically in one session. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:33, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * heh, I'd rather keep emacs and lose version control than the other way round (I ought to add that I have a fair number of rather major comments to deal with too). The other problem that I'm struggling with is that I can't order the issues alphabetically.  But it's good to know that my workflow isn't too inefficient.  I have another question but I'll start a new thread.  Thanks everyone, Robinh (talk) 08:04, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Extracting the disk from the HDD
If a hdd gets physically damaged, but you have reasons to believe the disk inside is not, how would you proceed to remove it and read its content? What tools and expertise is needed for that?B8-tome (talk) 08:57, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * See data recovery and data recovery hardware for a general overview. This is not something you can do at home - unless you have a clean room for starters. 196.213.35.146 (talk) 09:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I actually do have a cleanroom, and years of experience engineering hard drives going back to the original IBM 30-30 drives, and I still wouldn't try it. I would hire a professional data recovery service.


 * That being said, there is one situation where there is something you can do yourself. If [A] the data is very important, [B] the actual drive is old and cheap, and [C] you can get your hands on an identical model of drive, it may be worthwhile trying to swap out the circuit board containing the electronics. You can usually do that without trying to open up the sealed enclosure that holds the platters.


 * And next time, back up your important data in three places. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:15, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * See also some YouTube videos. Keywords: hard drive recovery -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 16:46, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Why don't web pages fit on my browser (Chrome) ?
Google Chrome on Windows 7. Most web pages come in too big, and I have to zoom out to see them. For example, I went to https://www.hubblecontacts.com/pages/subscribe, and had to zoom out to 50% to see the "Get Started" button at the bottom, which I assume they meant to be visible. I need to zoom out to 33% to see the entire page. And this is typical, unfortunately. My screen resolution is 1920×1080, and the browser is set to full screen. Are web pages created today assuming 4K res ? StuRat (talk) 15:51, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * No, most are not. Most are created with the assumption that you you are an ADHS-afflicted squirrel with bad taste who likes 15 noisy, garishly coloured moving objects at the same time, but that is a different problem. I suspect yours is a configuration issue - try going to Preferences and check the "page zoom" option. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * But when I use CTRL + and - to adjust the zoom level, 100% is too big. Why would that be ? StuRat (talk) 16:05, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * For a long time the common knowledge was that everything must exist "above the fold" or users will get bored before scrolling to find it.
 * Research has shown that, in certain situations, users are pretty likely to scroll no matter what, especially on mobile.
 * And so, many web designers have taken this to mean that putting important things "above the fold" is old fashioned and ignorant.(Typical article: ) The modern fashion is that you should have to scroll to absorb the 'story' of the page before reaching the call to action. (Even if they have to space the content out with whitespace!)
 * Personally, I think this new extreme is just as silly and ignorant as the previous extreme of cramming everything along the top of the web-page. But what do I know? I'm certainly not a designer. Probably, I'm the ignorant one. ApLundell (talk) 16:41, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, that may be. Also, I recently learned that "Responsive web design" basically comes down to design a web page with three fixed sizes (mobile phone, tablet and real computer) in mind, not to use the infinite power of HTML5/CSS/Javascript to configure it for any size... However, Stu's example page works fine for me (Chrome on Mac), and in nearly all reasonable browser window sizes, the button is still visible. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Did you change the DPI settings of Windows? (Now often called scale settings or similar.) If you did, the spread of 4k or other high DPI monitors has meant that browsers have finally started to properly take into account these settings so you should expect your pages to be larger than they would be if you had 100%/96 DPI. Nil Einne (talk) 06:33, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * In previous versions of Windows I tried changing the DPI settings, and it badly messed things up, so I changed back and haven't touched that setting since. Do they even still have that setting in Windows 7 ? StuRat (talk) 04:22, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Did you read my comment properly? Most definitely yes, and also in 8, 8.1 and 10. With the growth of high PPI displays, people are starting to use to and so software developers are starting to take it seriously, finally, as I already said. (Unless needed because you're a software developer, only an idiot will use a 4k monitor on Vista or XP. I mean it's not so much even the high DPI support issues, but the simple fact this must be a very new display so you're stupid to be using it on XP or Vista.) To some extent Microsoft has also improved things. Well I mean the changes in Vista to do scaling of the software doesn't report it self as handling it improved things even if the results were obviously not so sharp. But then everyone decided to declare they were handling the DPI, without actually doing it properly. So the introduction of being forcing scaling no matter what on Windows 10 Creators Update was needed. I believe there were also API improvements and those Microsoft apps which still didn't handle DPI scaling properly generally came to the party. Nil Einne (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

URL for reference desk questions
I'm trying to write a book about borders - and I'm making VERY slow progress - and this Reference desk thread is pertinent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#How_exactly_do_countries_assert_control_over_land_when_the_land_is_evolving.3F

Will it persist (for the years I expect to need it)? Hayttom (talk) 17:59, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The question will be archived. Also persistent are https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=nnnnnnn links without any page name, if not oversighted due vandalism. Note heading and date for an archive lookup. When a page gets renamed, a difflink with name will fail. Your question in eternity: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=802821670 -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 19:19, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Specifically, in a few more days you can expect that the thread will be archived at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2017_September_25#How_exactly_do_countries_assert_control_over_land_when_the_land_is_evolving.3F


 * You can see that that URL is formed from the original one by inserting "/Archives" and the date "/2017_September_25". Doesn't work right now, but should work in a few days.


 * Of course, no one can guarantee that anything on the WWW will persist for years: it's always possible that the site, Wikipedia in this case, will simply go away for some reason. But that's the intent. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 19:28, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * A diff link with a numbered diff will continue to work as long as the revision is not deleted. The page title in the url is simply ignored. These work equally well:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=802821670
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Computing&diff=802821670
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wrong_page_name&diff=802821670
 * The same applies to "Permanent link" under "Tools" in the left pane of the desktop site. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:14, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * While all this is true about it being archived, there's always the possibility that Wikipedia could be attacked by hackers, have a server room fire, go bankrupt, etc., so you might as well make a copy of the page, a week after it's archived. It's not likely to change after that.  StuRat (talk) 03:23, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Practically, unless you have very good backuping practices, which frankly you probably don't if you have to ask this sort of question (while it may be a fairly distant issue, there's enough relation that it's unlikely), there is a far, far higher chance that your personal copy will be lost but the version on wikipedia will survive. In addition, I hope in hell that the WMF is not going to lose long term data from a server room fire. They shouldn't lose it to hackers either. If either are really a realistic possibility, then the WMF is seriously way more messed up then even I think their harshest critics here come close to imagining. In addition, while maybe not so easy for you to access, even everything actually hosted by the WMF disappeared right now, I find it unlikely there wouldn't be several different full database dumps of en.wikipedia still available elsewhere. You can increase this several fold if the WMF really goes from swimming in money to being bankrupt. The only risk is that the content will be deleted for some reason, but I find it unlikely unless there is some significant copyvio. And unless copyvio is the reason, it's quite likely an admin will provide the content on request even if is deleted. Well there's a very minor risk it will be supressed, but again, very very unlikely. So I'm not saying you shouldn't keep a personal copy, but it's not going to actually increase the chance it will be preserved by much. Frankly you're probably better of submitting the page to archive.org, webcitation.org and maybe archive.is (despite their dodgy practices here). Nil Einne (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the cost of making a personal backup is so low, and it's so much easier to access than looking for backups on the web, that there's no reason not to do this. For example, I've gone back to an old Wikipedia article I used to like, and see it has been totally ruined by bad edits, but it takes a long time to figure out where the good version was, sifting through thousands of edits in the history.  StuRat (talk) 03:23, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The second part of your comment isn't necessarily true. I'm quite sure a large number of people will have trouble remembering where the heck they stored the content. After all, the fact that they can't find the content already means that they don't have very good memory or organisational skills, otherwise they would remember or have enough to know where to find the content, like what date the content was. They could potentially search for it, but that may or may not be easier then looking for it again online. Notably the nature of the RD means that it's fairly unlikely the content will change much once it's been archived, and if it does, it will only likely be with the addition of new comments. Further even if the OP fails in their searches, it's quite likely a simple question on the RD asking for help finding it will get positive results. You can be sure that it will likely be far harder for us to provide any help finding the content on the OP's personal sotrage. Also since the OP is apparently using this to write a book, they could simply store the URL in their book as a footnote or inline reference. I would hope they at least have some decent backuping of this book otherwise there's a good chance it will end in tears. (I'd say at least 4 copies, one of them offline and stored a distance away from the other copies, and probably at least one cloud copy, in a cloud where it's unlikely any malware or whatever could easily delete it.) They could also store the whole text in the book, but storing too much like that is likely to get confusing. I admit I did miss tbe book issue before. Ideally the backuping should include any resources they need but this depends on how they handle things. If for some reason it makes them worse at backuping the book, then it would be better to screw resources likely to be easily obtainable online. And even if they do keep a personal copy, it would likely still make far more sense to rely on the online copy as the primary resource unless they ae regularly without internet access, whether in the form of a permanent link or simply a link to the version in the archives. (P.S. If Google Docs or some other online resource is being used for this project, please make sure that you actually have a backup of the content. Note that simply copying the "file" on Google Drive simply gives you a link to the content on Google Docs.) Nil Einne (talk) 03:54, 2 October 2017 (UTC)


 * "it would be better to screw resources" ??? StuRat (talk) 05:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks everybody, I learned even more than I expected. (By the way, my notes are on Google Docs and this question and answer exercise has prompted me to make some proper backups.  The book itself, when it's more than a few pages of content, will be published on WordPress.)  Hayttom (talk) 15:06, 3 October 2017 (UTC)