Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2019 October 23

= October 23 =

Windows 7 problems.
Have 2 laptops that are Windows 7, and so many things about them not the same. 1st is a slow Windows 7 laptop at 2 GB ram, almost every time I turn it on, it loads Update.exe which is unclosable and slows everything down, I have to wait for it to go away. It mostly uses 100% usage in the task manager. Now my faster Windows 7 laptop is 8 GM RAM and boy it doesn't have that problem at all.. But that problem is it turns on on it's own in the middle of the night all the time. I have to raise the lid, then shut it, so it goes back on stand by. So pretty much every morning when I wake up, I hear it's engine running because it turned on on it's own from stand-by. I'll post a 3rd problem later. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 03:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC).


 * 1ST LAPTOP: Try turning off automatic updates. Get more RAM.


 * 2ND LAPTOP: Try turning off automatic updates and backups. You could unplug it and pull the battery out if that doesn't work.


 * Of course, you will want to do updates and backups manually, if not automatic. SinisterLefty (talk) 03:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 1st laptop, if W7 is too slow after turning off updates, just install Linux. Recommend Q4OS (Trinity DE), should work just fine. And definitely turn off updates in Services, MS has sabotaged Windows Update for many old PCs. Turning on in the middle of the night - #1 go to Control Panel > Power Options > Advanced settings > Sleep > Allow wake timers > Disable, or #2 read and see which device is causing the wakeups. 93.136.155.134 (talk) 00:58, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Updates aren't going to be much help as Windows 7 has been EOLed for all but "extended support" enterprise customers. I would say that no professional would recommend that you continue running Windows 7, particularly if you intend to use or connect to the public Internet. Elizium23 (talk) 04:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * What would be considered a "professional" by you? I connect to the public Internet to ask questions on Wikipedia desks, for example. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 05:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC).
 * A professional who makes a living providing support of the nature you're requesting. For example, I currently hold a CompTIA A+. If I were responsible for your IT support I'd have you unplugging your Ethernet cable -- or at least firewalling and isolating your network -- and locating a supportable OS as priority one. On a related note, have you installed a virus scanner, and is it up-to-date with its definitions database? Elizium23 (talk) 05:38, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yea Avira for virus-scanner. However, my old laptop often has a avscan.exe which is automatic and cannot close manually. I think the new has it too but not noticeable. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 05:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC).


 * Windows 7 is still fine for the casual home user. When extended support runs out in January, that might be the time to consider an upgrade. I went through this with Windows XP, and web sites stopped working a bit at a time after the extended support ended. But it was years before it became unusable (and you could still probably use it for Wikipedia). SinisterLefty (talk) 10:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I can't stand the way Task Manager looks in Windows 10. So ugly and different. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 13:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC).


 * Yes, I object to "change for change's sake". And beyond that, any change will require a learning curve, so it can't just be a tiny bit better, it should be much better or else they should just leave it alone. When I switched to Windows 7 from Windows XP, I objected to the changes they made to MS Paint, so I just copied the executable over, and now I still have my "Invert colors" menu pull-down, and don't have to use a special keystroke (which also changed between versions). Perhaps you could do the same with the Task Manager. Not sure if that would work, though. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I'd say it's worst for a "casual" home user. Any sticking with such an old version is going to forestall your ability to learn the newer versions, and it's going to make things difficult when you cast around for support. Unless you're running a voting machine in the USA, or you're an experienced administrator who can field support issues and manage to manually patch and mitigate security vulernabilities, I'd say get back on the upgrade train. It's probably not necessary to throw away the laptops, they may be rescued by an appropriate Linux install, FreeBSD, or possibly even a newer Windows, depending on their GPU in particular. Elizium23 (talk) 17:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't think you're doing a proper cost/benefit analysis. What would it cost in time and money to upgrade to Windows 10, versus just waiting for Windows 11 or whatever comes next ? Now how will it cost them more to wait ? In a business environment, it's easy to see how that cost could be recouped, but as a casual home user, how exactly ? SinisterLefty (talk) 19:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The cost/benefit is easy. There's always going to be a new version, so you can always pretend to justify waiting just until the latest and greatest comes out. But that's a fool's errand. The TCO (total cost of ownership) of an operating system (and hardware etc.) begins to skyrocket near its EOL point. Old protocols, old features, old bugs no longer supported nor fixed. New ones not coming in. Users abandoning the platform as it is obsolete. Mysterious crap begins to happen such as our interlocutor's support issues. The opportunity cost of not learning a new version is also great. My father knows this well; he's used some PD software to slap an XP interface onto his Windows 7 laptop and he grouses about newfangled stuff. He threw in the towel when their Vista machine crashed and commissioned me to install a new Windows 10 system, and educate them just enough to get email, cat videos, and a few memes going. The longer you cling to obsolete platforms, the harder it is to pry them from your fingers when the time comes. This is unfortunate, yes, I love vintage computers, give me a C-64 any day or an Atari 2600 to play games! But this is the cost of consumerism and the capitalist milieu we live in - there is a constant pressure from shareholders to increase their value by selling more and more stuff, and you don't sell more stuff without forcing obsolescence and constantly introducing new features. I consider it an honor to install a new Windows and learn the new stuff. It's another bullet point on my résumé when I can draw a swath across "Windows 3.1" all the way to "Windows 10" and "Server 201x" and say I am comfortable with them all. (If users can't afford to purchase an upgraded laptop, then the users should be asking themselves whether their budget allocation for IT was appropriate - they probably realize the need for new phones every 2 years or so already.) Elizium23 (talk) 21:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * You're still looking at it from the POV of a business. Those costs just don't apply to a home user. For example, if some game they play doesn't work anymore, they don't commission somebody to write a fix for it, they just stop playing that game. If a news or weather site stops working, they find another or get their news and weather from the TV, etc. And even the professionals have largely skipped some pathetic Windows versions, like Vista.
 * A casual home computer user could be compared with someone who rides a bicycle for fun. It doesn't make economic sense for them to replace their bike every time a new model comes out, but rather to wait until it fails to work. And even then, some minor things can go wrong, like the horn not working or some gear they don't use not working, and they can still get more usage out of it. You are looking at it from the POV of a competitive bike racer, who does indeed need all the newest technology, if he intends to win races. SinisterLefty (talk) 21:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Someone who rides a bicycle for fun may well depend on that bicycle -- for entertainment. If the bicycle breaks then they may find their "fun" quotient unmet and it could lead to marital stress, weight gain, mood disorders, etc. Our questioner here today has some bugs that are preventing him from achieving computing goals. My concern is not what those goals are, but how they can best be achieved. He may be a gamer or an emailer or a desktop publisher (the latter two are very real productivity goals and more common than "someone who uses a computer/bicycle for fun"). Bicycles are not an accurate hardware analogy, because there are classes of bicycle which are immune to obsolescence, sturdy and last for decades. Now you mentioned a game that is beloved by the casual user. My mother had such a game. It lasted from oh, about Win3.1 until it finally died with Vista and I could not resuscitate it on Win10. Yes, she was very attached to that game. But she also pragmatically understood that it had been on borrowed time for years! Any "casual computer user" who becomes unduly attached to some feature, software, or hardware has transformed into a "vintage computer aficionado" and such usage ceases to be "casual" as soon as the raison-d'etre is playing that one game over and over. I can point you at some YouTube channels where aficionados are very devoted to restoring, upgrading, and augmenting vintage computer gear; they are anything but casual. A casual computer user is a consumer, and a consumer needs to have current, supported equipment in order to carry out their consumerism and stay relevant in the marketplace. In the 1980s, I listened to a Walkman clone. I have been a casual consumer of music since then. If I insisted on listening to tapes on that Walkman clone in 2019, I would be derided, and rightly so. Casual automobile drivers got their wakeup call from Barack Obama when Cash for Clunkers was instituted. We can't be attached to old crap that just hasn't broken enough yet. Consumer is as consumer does, and Best Buy/Newegg is thataway. Elizium23 (talk) 00:17, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Even using your car example, it still doesn't make sense, either for the individual or the environment, to junk all current models whenever a new model comes out. So maybe the old car doesn't have an MP3 player and GPS, you can use portable devices for that. And if the use of the car was also casual, by somebody who could just as well use public transportation/Uber/Lyft to get anywhere, if they lacked a car, then it makes sense to keep it until it dies, and maybe not even replace or repair it then. Also, similar to PCs, old cars can actually have features you would miss on the new ones. "What, no CD player ? So now I have to convert all my CDs to MP3 ? That sucks !" SinisterLefty (talk) 02:11, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * SinisterLefty, regarding MSPaint, all you had to do was copy/paste MSPaint.exe from Windows XP to 7? Or and the entire folder with the .exe in it? And you most likely had to delete the 1 in 7 1st? Regarding Task Manager from Windows 7 to 8 or 10, does anyone know if it had less features? 67.175.224.138 (talk) 22:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC).


 * I just copied the XP version of "MSPaint.exe" file to my Windows 7 Desktop. I can start it by clicking there. Or, if I want the Windows 7 version, it's still available through the menu system.


 * One thing the Task Manager sorely needs as of Windows 7 is the ability to determine which application is the problem one I need to kill. For example, if my Google Chrome session hangs, I'd like to be able to kill the offending tab. I can't close it in Chrome because Chrome is hung up. I open the Task Manager and it shows maybe 20 Google Chrome processes, and I have no clue as to which process relates to which tab, so the best I can do is kill them at random, and hope the offending tab is closed before those I don't want to lose. SinisterLefty (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Was that a feature added in Windows 10 TaskMan? 67.175.224.138 (talk) 23:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC).


 * Don't know. That was my example of an improvement useful enough to justify a change. SinisterLefty (talk) 01:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course it wasn't. That problem however is easily fixed by installing Firefox or Pale Moon. 93.136.155.134 (talk) 00:49, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I have installed Firefox. How does that solve the problem ? SinisterLefty (talk) 03:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

3rd question: when I have documents like Microsoft Word or images, not all show up in the folder. Under Tools > Folder Options > View (tab), I have show hidden files and folders as selected. So how do I find these files? Apparently by the program itself. So on Word if I Ctrl O, type in "A" then all documents starting with A show up, even if it can't be seen in the C:\ folder. Weird. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 05:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC).


 * This doesn't apply to MS Word files or most image editors, but there are some applications where a "file" in a folder doesn't necessarily correspond with a "file" or "object" within the program. For example, one video format had each movie consist of multiple VOB files and an associated supporting index file. The application would read the index, and display the movie name(s) listed there, not the names of the VOB files. Once you selected a movie, it would then play the VOB files in the required order. (Think of them like reels of a film.) So, just looking at the contents of the folder in the File Manager (renamed "Windows Explorer" as an example of change for change's sake) might not tell you much. SinisterLefty (talk) 22:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * OP, is the folder you're talking about My Documents? It's not a normal folder, but a "library". You might have some files saved in Public Documents which won't show up in C:\Users\xxx\My Documents, but will when you press Ctrl+O because Word checks the library, not the real folder. 93.136.155.134 (talk) 01:01, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yea, so should I save them to Libraries\Documents or C:\Users\...\My Documents? 67.175.224.138 (talk) 03:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC).
 * I think both should create the same result, a library always has one default folder and that's usually C:\Users\username\..., that's where the file goes when you save something to "Libraries\...". The Libraries\Documents files that you can't find are probably in C:\Users\Public\Public Documents. You can also try in Windows Explorer right-clicking Libraries\Documents and then you can see if there are any other folders included and which is the preferred folder for saving files. 93.136.155.134 (talk) 03:49, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Casual computer users
Perhaps the age of casual computer users is actually dawning in a new way. What I mean is that with the smartphone being so ubiquitous, average people depend way less on a desktop/laptop computer for productivity, checking email, communication and document viewing in general. I heard numbers that indicated laptop and desktop markets are stagnant or even declining, because sometimes people just don't replace that desktop that broke or the old and busted laptop. For most years of the Wintel PC and Macintosh, even gamers were known to use their computer for bursts of productivity or communication or desktop publishing. The PC has been such a Swiss Army Knife that it was difficult to supplant, but the torch has finally been passed to the Smartphone. But I would be careful about applying the label "casual computer user" because it sounds dismissive and unsympathetic to users like 67.175.224.138 who is encountering some real issues getting in his/her way of being productive. A truly casual computer user is one whose lifestyle may be enhanced by computer usage, but whose day-to-day activities, finances, and communications would not be at all impeded by the loss of "the" home computer. And at least until the smartphone became king, that truly casual user was a rarity indeed. Elizium23 (talk) 00:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Might I add I use a flip phone for a cell phone, so I really just use a computer to go to websites like Facebook, and make websites. Make websites editing raw coding like .html, which I can do on Notepad, then copy/paste to the web server. I generally need the os with the best Task Manager. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 01:37, 24 October 2019 (UTC).


 * I think you're finally starting to get it. But it's hardly a new thing. My Mom never used her Win 2000 PC for anything but playing solitaire. It certainly would not have been worth her upgrading the hardware and OS so she could play solitaire on Windows 10. When she could no longer play solitaire on it, due to a hard drive failure, that was fine, she had more time to do other things. This is a "casual user". SinisterLefty (talk) 01:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

MS Word dimming file
Okay this is probably a separate question, going back to Microsoft Word. Once I have a file open, in the My Computer folder, the "Filename.docx" becomes ~$Filenam.docx and the image icon is lighten to a dimmer color. That itself is not the file and sometimes the original file is lost as a display. It can only be opened by opening Word itself, or under a "recently opened files" that it auto-saves. Sigh. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 01:44, 24 October 2019 (UTC).


 * I broke it off as a separate Q. It sounds like it may be locking the file so that nobody else can read it while you are making changes. SinisterLefty (talk) 01:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes I think it's a file locking mechanism to prevent Word from opening two instances of the same document for editing. A bit unsophisticated, but I remember these pseudo files have been around since the early days of MS Office. It may also be there to let Word know which documents were open and need recovery after Word crashes. The icon is lighter because it's a hidden file. Losing the original file should never happen tho, I haven't had that nasty bug since Word 97 at least. The file is not meant to be opened because it doesn't contain anything useful, definitely I don't think it has anything in it that could help reconstruct a lost file. It may be that when you double-click it Word opens the corresponding real file, I think the ~$ file contains the real file's name and some other metadata. 93.136.155.134 (talk) 00:45, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

2+2=4, is too much to ask?
Is there any programming language where a+a = 2a, and not some error message. C est moi anton (talk) 17:24, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Just about all of them? I'm not aware of any programing language that can't add a number to itself.
 * Is there a specific problem you're having? ApLundell (talk) 17:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)I


 * In most languages you have to write assignment statements differently than a math equation, something like "a = 2" then "a = 2*a". So, there are three specific differences, that only one variable can appear on the left side of the equals sign, that a symbol like "*" is needed to denote multiplication, and that the value of the variable is actually being set by the assignment, as opposed to just noting an equivalence for later use. For example, it would be nice if you could just enter the quadratic formula, have it ask you which variables are known, and solve for the unknowns, if possible (including complex number answers). But the reality is that it takes a quite a bit of coding to make it do that in most languages. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:08, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you are looking for a symbolic parser, like Matlab/Octave, where you can create a symbol "a" and then it will parse "a+a" to produce "2a". In reality, the symbolic parser is normally used to handle very large, confusing equations and calculate derivatives. 199.164.8.1 (talk) 17:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Also something like Wolfram Alpha. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 21:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, symbolic parser is the concept I was searching for.
 * I have in mind to type directlly 'a+a' and obtain 2a.
 * Wolfram Alpha can verify 'a + a = 2a'. Python not (unless you assign a value).C est moi anton (talk) 21:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * What you are probably looking for is a computer algebra system. Modern ones typically have some kind of programming language built-in. They are excellent for symbolic manipulation of formulas and sometimes even for prototyping algorithms, but typically less well suited to high-performance computing. Adding two numbers is a single machine instruction. Manipulating symbolic expressions is orders of magnitude slower. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I use PARI/GP for number theory. There is an online version at https://pari.math.u-bordeaux.fr/gp.html. If you enter a+a then you get 2*a. (a+1)^3 gives a^3 + 3*a^2 + 3*a + 1. You can also go the other way in some cases. factor(a^3 + 3*a^2 + 3*a + 1) gives Mat([a + 1, 3]) which is PARI/GP's way to write (a+1)^3. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That website says that the online version runs at about 1/4 normal speed. Do you know what type of computer is it running on?  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 01:10, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Your own. The code is translated to JavaScript which is sent to your browser and runs there. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * There's also an Android app on F-Droid. 93.136.155.134 (talk) 00:38, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Is there an app for Android 8.0 that allows you to set max charge ?
So for example, I could set it to only charge to 70% or 80%, to protect the battery. SinisterLefty (talk) 21:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not aware of "protection" accorded by undercharging batteries, particularly modern LiIon ones. Could you elaborate on the nature of this protection? Elizium23 (talk) 00:20, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * "Most Li-ions charge to 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles. ... In terms of longevity, the optimal charge voltage is 3.92V/cell." [batteryuniversity.com/index.php/en/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries] 01:42, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * From that source, it would help but there are other problems that you get. Voltage levels and charge level are not linear in Li-ion: [batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries]
 * So at 3.9V you'd have 20% less charge as well, resulting in charging more often and deeper charge cycles which are both bad for the number of cycles. I think that optimizing battery life is less simple than just dropping the charge voltage. Rmvandijk (talk) 07:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC) (note: I am not an electrical engineer)


 * In my case there's little risk of using up most of the charge. So, I'd like to charge it when it's at 20-30% and stop it charging at 70-80%. SinisterLefty (talk) 10:27, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yeah there are a lot of those. Try the search function on f-droid.org whose apps are less likely to put spyware on your phone. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 01:36, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I only found one there, named "Battery Charge Limit". Are there more ? That one didn't work because it said my phone must be "rooted". If this isn't something I can do, then I guess none of the apps which stop charging will work. The next best thing is one that will at least notify me when I hit the preset limit. I downloaded one of those (using Google Play): "Battery Charge Notifier". SinisterLefty (talk) 10:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

UPDATE: I've been using "Battery Charge Notifier", which does a good job of notifying me when it's at the given charge percentage, and also reports battery voltage and temperature. It can't stop charging directly, though. Also, it would be even better if I could charge until it reaches a target voltage of 3.92V, rather than a percentage. One complexity with that seems to be that the reported voltage is different when plugged into the charger or unplugged. I've seen this with car batteries, too. That is, you have to unplug the battery from the charger to get a good voltage reading on the battery. Is there a way to compensate for this, by figuring the battery voltage is a given percentage less than shown, when it's plugged into a charger ? Could some type of lookup table or formula be used for a conversion ? The charger voltage would likely also be needed as an input to the formula. SinisterLefty (talk) 03:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

JS code
Why did: cause my browser to lag severely? 69.5.123.121 (talk) 23:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * while(1) is an infinite loop. RudolfRed (talk) 23:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * There are times when an infinite loop is OK, if you check for some condition that causes you to exit the loop. But even then, you want to ensure that you don't keep checking too often, as that can take up too much CPU time. In such cases, a WAIT statement or equivalent can slow it down to a reasonable portion of the CPU time available. SinisterLefty (talk) 02:20, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify the terminology: it's only an infinite loop if there's no way for it to exit. Writing "while(1)" at the top of a loop may produce an infinite loop, but it certainly doesn't have to. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

blanked potential unsafe code also caused severe lag but also prints out something in Chinese over and over. What's going on? I don't see any while statement in this one. 69.5.123.43 (talk) 11:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Why are you asking here and who is providing this code to you and why are you executing code you do not understand ? Note to other editors. Don't EVER execute any code that you don't know or don't understand, it might be a potential hacking attempt by someone trying to get access to your Wikipedia account. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 12:07, 28 October 2019 (UTC)