Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2020 May 30

= May 30 =

Creating Backup of Windows Prior to Registry Change
Maybe this is an ignorant question, or maybe I am asking the wrong question after decades of almost-relevant experience. I asked about six weeks ago what to do about the system resizing windows and making them smaller. I was told that I could make a registry change, and I have saved the advice that I was given. However, I was also told to back up my system first. I have tried to research how to "back up" Windows so that I can restore it, but what I read about backup has to do mostly with backing up files, and I know how to do that. What I think I want is to create a backup copy of Windows to an external storage device. I have an external storage device with approximately 300 GB of free space (because I have backed up my data to it multiple times, occupying maybe 700 GB of free space). What I think I want to do is to back up Windows 10 itself, using something available from the Settings or the Start menu or somewhere that doesn't involve my having to buy backup and restore software, and doesn't involve using a cloud. (I don't trust clouds. As Judy Collins says, they rain and snow on everyone.)

How do I back up Windows 10 itself to an external storage device? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Try Acronis True Image, best HDD cloning software. I have been using 2010. No complaints. Ram nareshji (talk) 18:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Here is one article I found on that topic: . RudolfRed (talk) 02:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I like Clonezilla, but there are several good alternatives. see Comparison of disk cloning software.
 * Here is how you safely test whatever backup system you use:
 * Make a backup.
 * Buy a new, unformatted hard disk.
 * Shut down and remove your existing hard disk. Pretend it completely failed and you had to buy a replacement. Set it aside somewhere safe.
 * Restore your system to the replacement drive and continue working as usual.
 * You can get a 500GTB drive for $20 USD [ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JQNXG70/ ], and 2GB will run you $40 [ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003IT70K8/ ]. I recently set up a new system and used one as a place to store my backups and another to do a test restore to. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:18, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The Windows registry alone (never mind the rest of the Windows installation) is so big, complex and poorly documented that I would suggest you prepare to install from scratch rather than trying to clone the system. Just to pick one issue out of a very long list of Windows 10 issues, Microsoft removed a feature and didn’t bother telling anyone (Windows systems claimed the feature was still working), leaving people to work out whether it was a bug or not . Ironically, that feature was a registry backup feature. Brianjd (talk) 05:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The above is good advice, but should not be considered an alternative to backing up the system and doing a test restore. Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages. In particular, if your Windows box is working fine, making a full a backup right before installing any new program is highly recommended. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Guy Macon I'm a retired computer scientist, Guy, not a hardware tech - Does this involve opening the cabinet and swapping hardware? I haven't done that in this century.  Robert McClenon (talk) 02:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe I asked the wrong question, because it sounds as if I have gotten the wrong answer. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I understand. Let me try to customize my advice. First let's talk about backing up 100% of Windows 7 or later (If you are running 95 or 3.1 let me know and I will talk about those versions). I am going to assume that you are able to reboot -- if we are talking about a server that has to always be running let me know. Backing up all of Windows from within Windows can be done, but it can be tricky. Far better to shut it down, back up the shut down state, and then boot it up (either with the existing Windows or a newly-restored backup).

The best way to back up all of Windows is to boot from another OS running off a bootable CD or a bootable USB device (usually a thumb drive, but you can use an external USB hard drive) Just download Clonezilla from https://clonezilla.org/ and follow the instructions. Save an image to your external drive and Bob's your uncle.

Of course a backup isn't much good if you can't do a restore. You want to be able to recover from:
 * Windows no longer boots and you don't know why.
 * Hard drive fails.
 * Malware wipes your system or ransomware encrypts all your files.
 * Your power supply goes bad and burns out everything -- motherboard, internal drives, and external drives.
 * Someone steals your computer, including the external drive where you stored your backup.
 * The building burns down.
 * You did something stupid and erased everything.

One common problem is "I made a backup, my hard drive failed. I replaced the hard drive, but I can't run install Windows or run my restore software because they are on the drive that failed"! Clonzeilla solves that. Boot from the CD/DVD/USB Device again, and restore Windows. BTW, you can buy a CD or USB device from https://clonezilla.org/cd-usb-key-vendors/ if you don't want to create your own.

Another problem that Clonezilla solves is "I can't find an exact replacement hard drive and had to put in a newer, bigger drive". Clonezilla handles that situation just fine.

Storing a backup offsite (cloud storage, at work, in your car...) solves the fire/theft/power supply risks.

But still, how do you know you can do a restore if you never try?

You can simply do a restore. If it works you know the restore to the exact same hard drive works. You are guessing that it will restore properly to a new drive. If the restore doesn't work you just erased everything on your hard disk. :(

Also, if your hard disk fails you need to wait for the replacement to arrive (I hope you have another computer or a phone if you plan on buying it online).

If the above is not acceptable, you have three choices. Ether learn how to swap in a new hard drive and follow my original advice, buy a second computer and do a test restore to it, or accept the fact that you don't really know for sure that your backups are good and that you can restore Windows. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * (I know, I should have started with this instead of making that other comment above. I didn’t read the initial post properly.) This sounds like another XY problem. The OP wants to back up the registry before changing a setting relating to window sizes, as explained in their initial post. Is it really necessary to back up the entire system?
 * The OP confirmed they are running Windows 10:
 * What I think I want to do is to back up Windows 10 itself
 * Finally, how do you keep an offsite backup secure (against unauthorised users reading/copying it)? Brianjd (talk) 08:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The previous discussion, where the registry change is discussed, is here: Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2020 April 12. Brianjd (talk) 08:52, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Keeping the offsite backup secure is the easy part. Install VeraCrypt [ https://www.veracrypt.fr/en/Home.html ] and mount an encrypted container. With the passphrase it looks like a disk and you can save your backups there just as you would nay other disk. Without the passphrase it looks like a big file full of random bits. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * If you can't trust your off-site secure storage not to read or copy, do you really trust them at all? TBH, I'd be rather more concerned about the long term viability of any closed proprietary encryption system but YMMV. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)


 * You can't trust them. You don't know if they are reading and selling your information. You don't know if they are a front for the NSA. You don't know that the data will be available when you need it. You should do your own encrypting using software you trust, only store the encrypted file in the cloud, and only use it as an additional safety copy after you have set up a proper off-site backup to a site you physically control (a copy at work and a copy at home, for example). --Guy Macon (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Who's talking about the cloud? If you have a copy at home and one at work (assuming you don't live over the shop), then that is your off-site secure.  If you can't trust your work colleagues and your family, then I suggest you have some rather bigger problems. As I said, YMMV and it all depends upon particular circumstances.  I'd still be concerned about relying on a closed proprietary system protecting my secure data in the hands of someone I'm assuming is a black hat.  Are you sure there are no back-doors in the software?  Have you (or someone you trust implicitly) read the source code?  Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Agree about physical off-site storage. Yes, I am reasonably sure that there are no back-doors in Veracrypt. An audit of version 1.18 was conducted by QuarksLab on behalf of the Open Source Technology Improvement Fund (OSTIF) in October 2016, and every change since then (there haven't been all that many) has been scrutinized by multiple security researchers. Besides, there are far easier ways. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

On what systems operating systems are made?
It involves improper shutdown to test it's flexibility of OS, so system should be strong to endure all this things, what system are there? Ram nareshji (talk) 02:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * If you are talking about testing a system for unwanted behavior during an unexpected shutdown, the normal method is to hook up a relay that cuts the power, then use a function generator to power the system up then cut the power 0.1 seconds later, followed by doing the same with a delay of 0.2 seconds, 0.3 seconds, and so on. This is a standard test I do whenever I design anything containing a microprocessor or microcontroller. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I am asking what motherboard,CPU, RAM, HDD, Desktop do you use to test OS? I am not asking about testing microprocessor — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ram nareshji (talk • contribs) 03:07, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * And my answer was a correct answer for testing ANY system -- a PC, a programmable coffee maker, the computer in your car, a smart phone, a talking Barbie doll, a new Linux distribution, the latest version of Windows, a Raspberry Pi... -- anything. If you just want to test an OS, you can test the OS on any computer that runs that OS. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Software developers (OS, games, whatever) would test with whatever models are representative of the market they're looking to reach. If they're planning on only selling to hardcore gamers, they'd test on a couple of the most popular gaming rigs.  If they're looking for the OS to be used by as many people as possible, they'd be better off testing on a variety of older and crappier computers (or maybe on emulators of said crappy computers on more powerful systems, but that you're asking this question here suggests you're not with an organization that could afford to do that).  Ian.thomson (talk) 03:31, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * User:Guy Macon You said relays first. But relays are way to slow in a digital world and signal generators are likewise way to simplistic. Ram nareshji (talk) 04:54, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * You actually think that a relay is slow compared to the boot time of a PC? And you imagine that repeatedly cutting the power to test for improper shutdown problems is "too simplistic"? You have no idea what you are talking about. What I described is the standard method for testing for problems related to losing power without doing a proper shutdown. If you fly on a commercial airliner or use a hard disk in your PC you are reasonably likely to be using something that was tested as I described above (along with many other tests, of course). I am done here. Good luck solving your problem. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * This user has a history of disrupting the reference desks. It appears they were last warned in 2014, but they have been busy lately. Is it time to take action again? Brianjd (talk) 08:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * They were blocked five-and-a-half years ago for 48 hours for a very specific reason: copying questions posed on other websites such as StackExchange to our Reference desk (without even a hint they were not their own questions). Cluelessness combined with a limited command of English is irritating, but hardly a reason for disciplinary action. --Lambiam 14:11, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Question above copied from here: . That was just based on some quick searches. I presume a determined user could find more. Brianjd (talk) 14:16, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The question is which of two possible responses are best now that we have identified the problem:
 * [1] File a report at ANI.
 * [2] Stop responding and see if he gets tired of shouting into an empty room.
 * I say we try #2 first, starting now, while thinking about #1. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:38, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Has anyone tried saying anything on his talk page? Not since 2014. Dicklyon (talk) 15:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Almost all questions I can find that have a duplicate on another forum were posted by the same user on that forum, also with an Indian name. Others, especially on StackExchange, are by one-shot users; their ungrammaticality belies the English user names. --Lambiam 17:31, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Why Microsoft stop supporting windows 7 recently?
Windows 7 has been so user friendly. I am talking about Extended support. Why Microsoft stop supporting windows 7 recently? Ram nareshji (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Why should they continue? Windows 7 had been supported for more than 10 years. Ruslik_ Zero 20:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC)