Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2022 May 9

= May 9 =

Mosaic killer
Mozilla, that handsome red beast, "has [...] been 'retired from active duty',[citation needed] removed from official Mozilla branding" (says Wikipedia, which as we know is not a RS). And yes, it seems to have been. But why? -- Hoary (talk) 01:12, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * A (kind of) reason is found here. --Lambiam 07:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, ! But of course it's no reason. Well, reading between the lines, I suspect something like "We wanted to attract major customers, investment, or both, and realized that our chances would be much better if we appealed to the general corporate preference for the safe and bland. So the dino had to go." A major loss, imho. Incidentally, I've slightly updated the article, which I now tend to think should display the image that's at the far right of this little collection, swiped from this page. (My personal favourite is perhaps the one saying "Free the lizard!") -- Hoary (talk) 09:51, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The "just the head, please" image is used in the article Mozilla. --Lambiam 14:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

How much are intellectual property rights?
Hi there,

You probably don’t know me, but I am looking to form an IT company after I finish the degree I’m working on. I am looking to exploring several different areas that my company can work in, such as:


 * Web Design
 * Software Programming
 * Game Development
 * Composing music for people
 * Buying franchises in a frozen dessert chain
 * Reviving obscure games from yesteryear

That last point is the one that is relevant here. If I were to try and buy the rights to something, like Club Penguin, or the output of Humongous Entertainment, then how much money would it take to force these businesses to sign them over to my company? I’m even looking at some obscure Nintendo titles.

I hope to be the next big thing in IT services, and with my unique portfolio, I will hope to become as famous as Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates. With this newfound potential, I will invest in charity, welfare and other projects that will make an impact in the world. I also intend to take the mighty games of old, and using my handy-dandy intellectual property rights, make an official declaration to the effect that said articles are heretofore to be entered in to the public domain. As such, I expect to be dubbed a hero by hardcore fans of such properties, the very saviour that will free them, from the shackles of lawsuits by the likes of Disney and Nintendo, and will write my place in the IT and computer history books.

In other words, I’m trying to buy the rights to old games, to preserve them for the future and keep them safe from greedy corporate executives and lawyers.

I remain, yours sincerely,

D.R.Tennant, Student of Computing and IT, Open University

86.133.234.17 (talk) 20:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Is this an entry in the "how not to write a CV" competition? Anyway, "Student of Computing and That" sounds better to me.2A00:23C6:AA07:4C00:EC93:EE2B:7F99:B899 (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I corrected some mistakes. Also, to show how much of an IT genius I am, I’ve just changed my IP address, signed D.R Tennant. 2A00:23C5:B22E:7001:ECFA:C6E7:ACA7:EC99 (talk) 21:28, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You can't buy the rights to games that companies aren't willing to sell.
 * In other words, unless Nintendo wants you to have it, you won't get it. WhoAteMyButter  ( 📨talk │ 📝contribs ) 21:37, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That’s why I plan to try and figure out how much these games are worth and then offer slightly more than that. I would hope that a large wad of cash would convince them. That is why I need to figure out how much, then I can propose an offer and then see what happens. I plan to fight hard for these things. Hopefully my money and my charisma will win in the end. Obviously, since I haven’t attempted this yet, we don’t know what the status is of these games. For the remainder of this discussion, let us assume that the companies will accept my money.2A00:23C5:B22E:7001:ECFA:C6E7:ACA7:EC99 (talk) 22:12, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I suggest that, even if it were possible for you to calculate how much the IP of a particular game is actually worth, and if you were to offer more than that, the owners would still not sell because of the risk that you would then use (or misuse) the game in some way that seemed (even if wrongly) to reflect badly on them and consequently devalue their business.
 * In any case, these businesses have far more accumulated expertise than you in making money from their IP, and are doubtless exploiting the games they own to the maximum extent possible, which you are unlikely to be able to do, so your entire strategy is almost certain to lose money. If you are serious about your ambitions and your supposed charisma (which I doubt), you need to read Dunning–Kruger effect. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.88.97 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I hope you’re not forgetting that I am quite knowledgeable in many important areas. I don’t really care if I lose a little money at first, as I am going to be making most of my money from proper IT business. You seem to have forgotten that my main business is in software work. Also, I don’t have any intention to misuse these games. I am only sprucing them up a bit. Why should they care what happens to things they no longer own, anyway? I’ve heard of things like Minecraft being purchased by Microsoft, so why can’t I do the same thing? I’m mostly concerned with games that haven’t been updated in ages, and games that have generated very little money recently. 2A00:23C5:B22E:7001:ECFA:C6E7:ACA7:EC99 (talk) 00:53, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You say you intend to donate them to the public domain. If you did, anyone would then be free to misuse them. One reason is that you'll never be anywhere near as rich as Microsoft was and is. -- Hoary (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey, for a change, a computing desk crossover with economics. The thing about copyrights and similar "IP" is they are government-granted monopolies. Basically they're worth whatever the owner says they are. They're illiquid and hence difficult for another party to appraise, because they're not fungible, rivalrous, and other econ terms. And you can't "force" the owner to sell to you. I mean if you offered a literal 1 billion USD for something many companies would likely at least entertain the prospect, but you are going to have to get up to fairly large wads of dough before many companies will even pay attention. And having an established company with offices and such will do a lot in getting business proposals taken seriously rather than dumped into the crank bin. --47.147.118.55 (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In reply to Horay: What makes you so sure I can’t achieve the same money as Microsoft? How do you know I’m not going to be as successful as Bill Gates? Also, the trick is to keep my real intentions secret until I have already closed the deal, plus I’m also considering Creative Commons as a valid possibility. In any case, I’m looking at things that are more obscure than Minecraft. (Another IP cnage) 2A00:23C5:B22E:7001:897E:7897:D6DD:B155 (talk) 09:13, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Shall we discuss this over a nice cup of tea? I have just the right vessel. -- Hoary (talk) 12:32, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * And it's always teatime. --Lambiam 14:58, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * What on earth have you guys been smoking? 2A00:23C5:B22E:7001:65CE:E811:1502:C0B7 (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2022 (UTC)


 * If you really want to be dubbed a hero by hardcore fans of such properties, the very saviour that will free them, from the shackles of lawsuits by the likes of Disney and Nintendo, tricking seasoned Nintendo lawyers into signing away their IP rights in a way that allows you to open-source them might be a bit hard. The (comparatively) easier way is to go into politics, and push for a large reform of copyright law to shorten the insanely-long copyright terms - say down to twenty years after publication as is the case for patents. (Coincidentally, my favorite dormant license held by Nintendo turns 20 this year.)
 * I take it, of course, that you are a brilliant, charismatic leader and negotiator, as well as a sharp legal mind acquainted with the Berne convention, jurisprudence resulting from Eldred v. Ashcroft, and so forth (I wikilinked those for other readers, of course, not for you). Please let us know when (not if) you succeed, which surely is only a matter of months if not weeks. Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:57, 10 May 2022 (UTC)


 * See also Idea–expression distinction. While the intellectual property of the game may be owned by someone else, they cannot protect the idea of the game.  Things like gameplay mechanics, objectives, etc. cannot be copyrighted or trademarked, only the artistic elements and other specific expressions of the game can.  So, while you cannot use the characters, artwork, in-game text, and other creative elements of abandonware, you can basically recreate the gameplay using your own such self-created IP.  There are many examples where games have copied essentially the game idea from others, without violating copyright.  You don't even need to get permission to do so.  If you think an old, abandoned game is worth bringing to market again, because people will play it, you can substantially recreate the basic gameplay elements and just use your own IP for the specific expression of the game.  You can find examples of this in real life, such as Freeciv which recreates the gameplay experience of Civilization, or OpenTTD, which recreates the gameplay experience of Transport Tycoon Deluxe. -- Jayron 32 15:17, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it would help if I mentioned that I intend to furnish my business with good lawyers. I see no reason why my lawyers couldn’t be as good as Disney or Nintendo ones, you know. Also, what will help me is recreating the success of Apple or Microsoft in the establishment and development of my own company. I can’t think of a reason why I couldn’t replicate the feats of Bill Gates or other such people. 2A00:23C5:B22E:7001:65CE:E811:1502:C0B7 (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * See also Delusion of grandeur. --Lambiam 07:04, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg didn't do anything other people couldn't have done. You could try it too. They were however lucky. They jumped into a new market with strong network effects, where being a big player draws many new users/customers. Around 2005, many social networks were created. One, selected at random, became dominant; the others disappeared and you never heard of the people who lost their investment with that. Your business proposal doesn't sound like you're jumping into a new market though. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:27, 11 May 2022 (UTC)