Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2009 May 20

= May 20 =

Defining polyrhythms
Through the internet, I've come across two definitions of a polyrhythm:

1. Simultaneously played different time signatures, eg in a drumset, snare & bass drum playing in 5/4 with the hi-hat in 4/4 (and the different time signatures "resolve" after a certain number of beats, 20 fourths in this case).

2. The concept generally known as a tuplet, and the extension of this idea, e.g a triplet eighth viz. 3 notes played evenly in time taken to play 2 8th notes, similarly 5:3 tuplet, where 5 notes are played in the space of 3, etc.

I've seen lessons on the internet and also drummers such as Mike Portnoy using the term in its first sense. In an article on his website (here: ), Steve Vai uses the term in the second sense stating that:

"A polyrhythm is just what it says. Two rhythms, or "feels", happening at the same time. Most people reading this have a good understanding of the basic triplet. This, in essence, is a polyrhythm. It's three 8th notes being played against two 8th notes".

The article here on wikipedia is pretty confusing and poorly cited and refers to both these ideas. So, which is the correct usage? Thanks. --Leif edling (talk) 04:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Neither is incorrect. The definitions are compatible, but they use different scales of reference. You could view every brief occurence of a triplet (or other tuplet) as a fractal of your first definition: two "time signatures" played over the duration of one beat, for example (even if one of the rhythms is only implied, you could still see it as a polyrhythm).
 * Alternatively, you could break up an entire piece of music performed in complex polyrhythm (Ewe drumming, say) into fragments of eighth notes and all sorts of tiny tuplets, for example.
 * Both changes of perspective are a bit extreme and counterintuitive, but this is just to illustrate that it's basically the same thing. The "feel" of interwoven rhythms, as Steve Vai puts it, no matter how long that feeling persists. But you're right, it would be interesting to check and compare how various music encyclopedias delimitate the term, and I agree that the article on polyrhythm could do with some improvement and inline citations. ---Sluzzelin talk  19:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Odo from Star Trek: DS 9
Does Odo ever master the ability to make better human ears? If so, in what season/episode is this first seen?

209.240.240.121 (talk) 08:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Though I haven't seen *every* episode, not that I know of. And after a quick skim of the Odo article at Memory Alpha, it doesn't look like they mention his ears at all which would lead me to believe that they never changed.  A change like that would probably be noted by MA.  Dismas |(talk) 09:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless you count alternate timelines: "In two hundred years he had grown more proficient in shapeshifting and was able to assume a more humanoid face." Though, it doesn't mention his ears specifically.  Dismas |(talk) 09:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The episode is Children of Time and he has an overall more human appearance, including his ears 8I.24.07.715 talk 12:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The Odo article states; ''Odo modeled his humanoid appearance on Dr. Mora, but never had the skill to duplicate humanoid features with precision, making his humanoid appearance an approximation. Originally, Odo's "unfinished" look was intended to convey that he simply chose not to bother with anything more than the most basic face necessary to communicate with humanoids, since he otherwise didn't really care what others thought of his appearance. When others of Odo's race (the Founders) are later introduced, they share a similar "unfinished" look, which they adopt mostly to make Odo feel at ease around them—they are able to replicate humanoids exactly, whereas Odo, having grown up without others of his kind, never learned to master it.'' They make it sound like learning to ride a bike, so perhaps he has the ability but never later put it into practice. But just a guess. I never really thought about it that much - does he ever impersonate other people? If so how did he do their ears accurately? Lanfear's Bane |  t  12:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, he never learned how to impersonate a person throughout the run of the series. He was limited to animals and inanimate objects. Mike R (talk) 13:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I deleted the sentence "Originally, Odo's "unfinished" look was intended to convey that he simply chose not to bother with anything more than the most basic face necessary to communicate with humanoids, since he otherwise didn't really care what others thought of his appearance" as unreferenced and dubious. Mike R (talk) 13:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Popular Classical Music
I need a list of "happy" popular classical music pieces like Beethoven's Ode To Joy and I need a list of "sad/ominous" popular classical music pieces like Beethoven's 7th Symphony 2nd movement. Is there a page in Wiki or a website that will have this list? --Reticuli88 (talk) 13:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)--Reticuli88 (talk) 13:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well if we post some then you'll have a list! Haydn's Symphony 104 for the happy, and Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings for the sad. How's that for starters!--TammyMoet (talk) 15:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * (after edit conflict) Classical music is sometimes used to induce moods in psychological studies of emotion and behaviour. There seems to be a standardized canon of works for inducing happy and sad moods set by E. Eich and J. Metcalfe in 1989, as far I could tell (will search for more references and examples later, when and if I get around to it):
 * Classical works inducing a happy mood: Eine kleine Nachtmusik, A Musical Joke, Divertimento in D (all by Mozart), as well as certain Vivaldi Concerti (I was only able to find references to "Concerto in C Major" and "Concerto in G Major" of which several exist for both keys, see list of compositions by Antonio Vivaldi
 * Classical works inducing a sad mood: Mahler's "Adagietto" in F major, the "Adagio" from Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, and Barber's Adagio for Strings
 * No doubt, other volunteers will have their own suggestions (and I'm looking forward to seeing them), but this is what I found in "scholarly" terms. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, the study seems to be Eric Eich and Janet Metcalfe (1989) "Mood dependent memory for internal versus external events", Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory, and Cognition, 15, 443-455. I couldn't access it directly, but I found another publication by Eich which specifies one of the happy Vivaldi works as "Concerto for Harpsichord and Strings in C Major" (still unsure which one that is. I suspect it is RV 425, though the wikilist only mentions mandolin and strings, but there is definitely a harpsichord in there too). Eich also gives two examples by Penderecki for "fearful music": Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima and Polymorphia. To induce a "neutral" mood for the control group, the researchers sometimes used Common Tones in Simple Time (1979) by John Adams or unspecified excerpts from Brahms' First and Third Symphony. I wonder how happy Brahms would have been to learn about this. (Ref: Cognition and Emotion, Eric Eich, Oxford University Press US, 2000, p 177, ISBN 0195113330). ---Sluzzelin  talk  08:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * This includes some opera tho. Happy are pieces that make me smile, Sad are those that give me a melancholy feeling and Both are those that well.. do both. Generally whether a piece engenders such feelings depends on the circumstances surrounding my first hearing of it.
 * "Happy" Tea for Two (from Andre Rieu's Fiesta), Pomp and Circumstances No 1 (Land of Hope and Glory), Sleeping Beauty Op. 66, (The Garland Waltz), William Tell Overture, Finlandia, String Quintet Op. 11 No. 5 in E major by Boccherini, Libiamo ne' lieti calici, Spring (Four Seasons,
 * "Sad" Due Tramonti, Gymnopedie No 1, Clair De Lune, Chi Mai by Ennio Morricone, Gnossienne No 1 by Erik Satie, Fur Elise, Cavalleria Rusticana (intermezzo)
 * "Both" Jupiter the bringer of Jollity, Woodbrook by Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin, O Fortuna (well I can't help but smile and conduct it) and Canon in D
 * Enjoy! Nanonic (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I could mention many things, but the only one I will mention is the little piece played on the piano by the African American gentleman towards the end of the film Awakenings. That, to me, is the saddest piece of music ever written, even apart from the fact that it was in one of the saddest movies ever made.  The composer was Randy Newman.  I'd love to find the music and play it myself, but I'd have to pick the right day because otherwise I might find myself sobbing uncontrollably for hours.  Not that that's a bad thing.  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * (See, I said I was looking forward to reading examples!) Jack, you're full of pleasant surprises. I won't link you directly, because I don't wish to drive you to tears (and also for possible copyright violations), but googling "Dexter's Tune", gives a link to sheet music as its first link. The gentleman is played by the great Dexter Gordon whose acting talent was shown to a wider audience a couple years before Awakenings in the film Round Midnight, the title song of which has made me cry (but it's not classical). ---Sluzzelin talk  08:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Eeeexcelent, Sluzzelin. You've helped me fill a small but important gap in my library of Timeless Tunes for Tuneless Times.  Thankzzz.  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't sing "The Dutchman" or "The Mary Ellen Carter" without blubbering. —Tamfang (talk) 02:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I find Sleepers Wake and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring by J.S. Bach happy (not boisterous, but pleasant). Adam Bishop (talk) 12:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The Planet Suite covers a lot of different moods...88.96.226.6 (talk) 13:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That's The Planets. --  JackofOz (talk) 22:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * A personal favourite: Badinerie by JSB from his orchestral Suite No. 2 in B minor for flute and strings, BWV 1067, which I find cheerful and which makes me happy. --NorwegianBluetalk 15:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Violin solo (or lead) - Most difficult to perform
What classical musical piece has the most difficult violin solo (or lead) in it? When I say difficult, I mean when only the most proficient, experienced violinist can perform.--Reticuli88 (talk) 19:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * This forum of violinists considered the most difficult violin concerto and came up with many answers. It also mentions some solo pieces.  Interesting reading.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

UK release date for The Limits of Control
My Google-fu has failed me. Can anyone tell me when this film is due to be released in the United Kingdom? Thanks,  Skomorokh   22:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't despair. I think your fu is strong; it's just that the information isn't there. I think it's likely that it has not currently been scheduled for theatrical release in the UK. The IMDB's list of release dates for the film doesn't include the UK. The IMDB is by no means infallible, of course, but they usually get things like this right. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 23:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconded. There's another page on the film's release dates here and the UK's not listed there either. --Richardrj talkemail 05:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)