Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2010 May 19

= May 19 =

god bless America instead of the nat'l anthem before an NHL game...
I was watching the Montreal/Philly game earlier this evening and at the beginning right after O Canada had been sung, instead of singing the Star Spangled Banner, God Bless America was sung. It was interesting and was a sort of duet with some super-old footage from who knows when of someone else also singing GBA, but I was wondering a few things:

1) Seeing as this must be legit, how long has it been allowed?

2) Is this a common occurance (and thus is my tendency to not watch the first period of hockey games coming back to bite me...)?

3) Are there other countries that have an alternative anthem they play before some games?

If perhaps I'm totally out of what and GBA is actually a US nat'l anthem, please feel free to correct me. I'm not American and thus am a bit ignorant of a handful of traditions.

Thanks! - flagitious 04:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flagitious (talk • contribs)


 * GBA isn't the US national anthem &mdash; that's The Star Spangled Banner &mdash; but as our article God Bless America says, there was a movement at one time to replace SSB with GBA. I think it's safe to say that GBA is a safe "runner up" in the national anthem race.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Usually countries which are only recognized as countries for sporting purposes have some sort of special song for use in competitions (Chinese Taipei and Northern Ireland, for example - they also have flags for use in soccer). Rimush (talk) 13:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Hold on, you can't get away with that one. "Chinese Taipei", normally known as "Taiwan", is certainly more than "a country only for sporting purposes"; see Political status of Taiwan.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Countries which are only recognized as countries for sporting purposes" might upset a few Scots as well. AFAIK it is the decision of the national association for the sport in question what should be played before international games. That's at least how it works in Scotland. Rugby and Football even use different "anthems". I'm not aware of an association of a country with a recognized anthem deciding not to use it though.213.160.108.26 (talk) 23:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The old lady in the video is Kate Smith. She sang in the 70s during the Flyers heyday, so they keep is as luck. 70.79.246.134 (talk) 14:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * First: are you sure that SSB wasn't performed before O Canada? Given that the game was in the US, I'd expect the US anthem first.  Now on to the specific questions:
 * 1: "allowed" -- There is no law and no official rule. The performance of the national anthem is simply tradition.  //updating: God Bless America cites a USA Today article noting that in multinational NHL games, both anthems are performed by rule since 1987.  However, my copy of the '07-'08 official NHL rules make no mention of such.
 * 2: By my observation, GBA's sports presence took off as a seventh-inning stretch substitute after 9/11. It's reasonably common across major US sports at this point. &mdash; Lomn 16:31, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Typically the visiting team's anthem (i.e. typically the Canadian anthem) is played first, followed by the U.S. national anthem, and the reverse is true in Canada, of course. But as noted farther up, Kate Smith's God Bless America, which was practically her signature song, was considered lucky by the Flyers, because they frequently won when they played it over the P.A. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Read this subsection of the Kate Smith article for further info on her significance to the Flyers, and note that they even erected a statue to her. That took a lot of brass, as there aren't all that many female statues at sports venues. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Awesome, thanks - you guys are awesome. The Ref Desk has yet to let me down! flagitious 21:39, 19 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flagitious (talk • contribs)

When the Detroit Tigers were in the World Series, they had Bob Seger sing before the game. The Star-Spangled Banner being a little outside of his vocal range, they opted for "America the Beautiful." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:05, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

What is played sometimes depends on the sport. England doesn't have an official national anthem (God Save the Queen is for the whole of the UK) so different patriotic songs have been chosen for different sports. Football (soccer) and rugby use God Save the Queen, Cricket uses Jerusalem and the English team at the Commonwealth games uses Land of Hope and Glory. See National anthem of England. 131.111.185.68 (talk) 10:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Brad Pitt?
Hi, I was reading Brad Pitt's wikipedia page and it says that "he has been described as one of the world's most attractive men, a label for which he has received substantial media attention." I honestly don't understand his appeal and was wondering if the perceivance of attraction is entirely subjective or maybe because I'm a man.

And honestly, if it says that, does that mean is he is the world's most attractive man and no other man is better looking than him, because I myself, percieve me as being better looking than him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.202.182 (talk) 13:46, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It is time for you to overtake him in acting skills as well. Rimush (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I will say this -- accessibility is a very important factor as far as who the masses deem attractive. So if Brad were more circumspect and thoughtful, like his Fight Club co-star Ed Norton, then you could be sure that a lot less ladies would get their panties in twist over him. He'd be too dark and brooding to be any good use to them. Vranak (talk) 14:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure there were some babes who though Jack Elam was a looker (two of them did, at least). I've never been able to understand the appeal of Marilyn Monroe. But Grace Kelly? Ooooh, yeh. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * We have a whole article on this: Physical attractiveness.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure reams have been written not only on how people's preferences vary in general, but how preferences if groups vary. What is attractive to a straight woman, a straight man, a gay woman, and a gay man, are not generally going to be the same things. I can be pretty confident in saying that, if you set up some poll or survey comparing how attractive straight women found you and Brad Pitt, you would not win. I mean, you don't expect to be attracted to the same physical characteristics as most women are, do you? But it's great that you're comfortable in yourself: convey that without arrogance and you're doing well. 212.183.140.34 (talk) 23:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Movie reviews for technical accuracy
Where can I find them ? I provide reviews to Netflix, but whenever I complain about people being blown backwards 20 feet by a gunshot, everyone rates my review as "Not helpful". So, where could I view and contribute reviews for an audience that appreciates such reviews ? StuRat (talk) 14:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I have thought about this issue. Aristotle, if I recall correctly, complains that art isn't true to life, and therefore ought to be banned. He misses the whole pedagogical function of art though. It's not by being literal that it conveys ideas and suggests possibilities. Joseph Campbell talks all about this in The Power of Myth. The bottom line is that reality is for real-life, and synthesis, taking liberties, symbolism, even falseness, are all important to anything artistic. Vranak (talk) 15:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Siskel and Ebert used to occasionally point out situations that were so ridiculous that they jumped off the screen at you - like people outrunning explosions, and surviving after being hurled hundreds of feet, and stuff like that. And for that matter, forget the deal about being pushed back 20 feet by a bullet - when's the last time you heard a realistic-sounding gunshot at a theatrical movie? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * What, don't all guns really sound like cannons ? :-) StuRat (talk) 22:23, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't think of any review site that would want that. Especially if it's user-rated, because most folks just don't care. Might be something you could consider as your own site or a blog. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 16:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Odd that I just read not two minutes ago that Comic Sans fonts are "widely reviled" over on the Computing desk, only to see it here... Well, one would assume that "most folks" simply wouldn't visit the website. The ones that would visit would be the ones that like that kind of thing. So there wouldn't be a downside to it being user-rated for that reason. Vimescarrot (talk) 16:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Bad Astronomy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.110.200 (talk) 16:12, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * How about Amazon.com ? They have review options as well as discussion boards. Many of them are quite helpful and any thoughtful input would probably useful to some individuals. Often I will read them before purchasing movies or music 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:03, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I would probably add that information to the "Goofs" section of the film's page on IMDb. Kingsfold (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Depending on the nature of the errors, they may be very welcome at http://www.nitpickers.com/.  (talk) 18:40, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's been several years since I've looked at the nitpickers site, and even then they had a boatload of nitpicks - along with the occasional refutation, where the original observer misunderstood what he was seeing. That issue is the snag with a user-driven site like that. Just because someone says something doesn't make it so. It does make it worth looking into, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The guy who created the amazing 70 minute "Phantom Menace" review includes nitpicks galore in his various video reviews of SF movies. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

That nitpickers web site look like just what I'm looking for, thanks ! StuRat (talk) 15:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Was Shelley Malil convicted?
The article uses the present tense when describing his legal troubles, but the sources are from late 2008. And at his IMDB profile, he has credits in 2009, though that work could have been done before his legal troubles started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.137.18.50 (talk) 18:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Here is his information page at the "Who's In Jail" website of the San Diego Sheriff's office. It says he's in area E4 of the Vista Detention Facility, and that his court date is not until August 13; and that you can bail him out for just US$3 million.  Assuming this is the same Shelley Malil.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Robert Powell
I remember him saying he became a Christian after playing the role of Jesus of Nazareth. It is not in the article. Is he still a Christian? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What does "became a Christian" mean? Was he of some other religion before?  Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. One could convert to Christianity either from another religion or from a state of irreligiousness.   And maybe it's not anything formal like being baptised/christened in a particular denomination, but just a general label one can apply to oneself if one likes what Christianity is all about.  That way you can follow what your heart tells you is the Christian way, and not be hamstrung by any one denomination's rules about this.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Barroom fight scenes in old Westerns.
Many thanks for all the help (above) wrt music for Wild-West movie saloons I got exactly what I needed. Now I need some suggestions for movies that contain those crazy saloon fights - you know the kind? Everyone is happily drinking their watered-down beer, cheating at cards and chasing the hookers dancing girls - when someone spills a drink on some huge bear of a guy...who swings a punch...misses...hits someone else...and for some unaccountable reason, within 10 seconds there are 100 people swinging punches, smashing up the place, etc. I need to make a catalog of the 'sight gags' in those old movies.

I'm having a hard time thinking of even single movie although, there must be dozens. Bonus points if I can find the fight scene online someplace.

SteveBaker (talk) 23:11, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The Spoilers (1942) Pepso2 (talk) 23:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Blazing Saddles, though the fights were not localized in the saloon. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The one in The Great Race (which was designed to be an over-the-top distillation of all those Western brawls) might be instructive. Deor (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Young Guns? I think it also happens in Wyatt Earp, or is it Tombstone... Adam Bishop (talk) 03:01, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * (I think you mean Wyatt Earp (film).) Kingsfold (talk) 13:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The 1945 cartoon, Hare Trigger, contains a quick live-action clip of a saloon brawl. If you could figure out which movie that's from, that would be a plus. Jump ahead to the famous Star Trek episode, "The Trouble with Tribbles", which includes a barroom slugfest between humans and Klingons, which was clearly inspired by the old west style brawl. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oddly, the first one I thought of was sci-fi too: Humans slugging it out with androids in Westworld . ---Sluzzelin talk  06:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * IMDb gives 29 titles for the combination of keywords "bar fight" and "western", but I don't know whether they all show fights fitting your description. ---Sluzzelin talk  06:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The climactic fight in The Quiet Man is just a one-on-one, as I recall, but it's considered classic: The Duke and Victor McLaglen slugging it out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ...What are "sight gags", actually? Anyway, it's neither old nor a western, but there's a brawl not unlike this in Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. I get the feeling there's a good reason no-one else has mentioned it yet, but you don't actually stipulate that the movie in question has to be a Western, and only mention "old" in an offhand fashion... 212.219.39.146 (talk) 09:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * We have an article "Sight gag" - it's basically a "visual joke". In bar fights, the commonest one is that A and B are on the same side - C is their common enemy.  A swings at C who ducks so that A accidentally hits B - now A and B are enemies...or some drunk exploits the fight to sneak around and drink everyone's drinks...or some little kid is hiding under the table and sticks out his foot every time someone runs past, trips them up - and then they blame the person behind them.  You're right though - it doesn't actually have to be a western - but old is better...I don't want innovative new bar fights! SteveBaker (talk) 14:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * My favorite is the drunk that keeps on drinking unperturbed. The only sign that he even is aware of the fight is that he moves his drink out of the way when someone gets slid down the bar APL (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You've been spying on me in the pub! DuncanHill (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Steve, you may be interested in the episode "Backwards" of the BBC TV series Red Dwarf, which contains a fight scene forwards and in reverse! Don't think it's a Wild West type scene. There was another episode based around the Wild West, in which I think there's a fight scene. I know this isn't a film, but given your background I thought you'd enjoy the comparison. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:42, 20 May 2010 (UTC) Got it! It's "Gunmen of the Apocalypse". --TammyMoet (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah - the reverse-world episode is a classic! SteveBaker (talk) 14:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Try the listings on these sites: (1) (2) (3) — Michael J  13:19, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not a fistfight and certainly not a Western, but one adaptable sight gag might be the behavior of Herbert Mundin (as Much) in the climactic battle at the end of The Adventures of Robin Hood. (Curiously, Eugene Pallette, who played Friar Tuck in the film, would be given a similar bit of comic business in the climactic battle of The Mark of Zorro.) Deor (talk) 15:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Top Secret contains an underwater bar room brawl.--TrogWoolley (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Have you tried TV Trope's page on the subject? APL (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm... After a second look TV Trope's page on the subject isn't as strong as it could be. Too much emphasis on modern media. Oh well. It doesn't even include this classic from Dodge City. APL (talk) 22:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Youtube has lots of clips (if you search barroom / saloon brawls / fights). The Guardian has a few clips, with the comments section offering plenty more.  As for the sight gags, there's always the  bottle over the head, people thrown out windows, swinging from chandelier, sliding along length of bar, someone carrying on with what they're doing (washing dishes/playing instrument/ playing cards) without noticing/caring, missed punches (getting the wrong person), someone unexpected joining the fight (eg. sheriff, pious tee-totaller, barmaid), furniture being used, people thrown from balcony/stairs...  Gwinva (talk) 02:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)