Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2011 May 13

= May 13 =

Un-matchable record in sports
Is there a notable record (or records) in sports (I'm thinking the major ones, not badmitton and darts, etc) that is generally considered by experts as "unbreakable." BUT not because the feat was so incredible by an individual or team that it could never be repeated...I am looking more so for records that were set prior to rule changes, like an increase in the number of games played per season, or a change in equipment standards. I am very interested in the way the evolution or sports rules and technology has affected the statistics from the "Golden Ages" into the "Modern Era", and would be curious if there is an article that covers this. Thanks! Quinn &#10025; STARRY NIGHT 01:12, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps records on injuries and deaths might be "unbreakable", due to increased safety equipment. In American football, for example, the improved helmet and pads have reduced injuries considerably. StuRat (talk) 01:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Some ideas:
 * Any of Cy Young's pitching longevity records. There is absolutely no way, given the way that pitchers in baseball are used today under the way the game is played, that anyone ever will break these records, until the heat-death of the universe.  He has 749 complete games.  Even the best starting pitchers in todays game will rarely get more than a handful each year, maybe 100 in a career today would be the most you'd expect to see, under the modern game, it would be Hurculean for a pitcher to get more than 100 in a career.  For an example, Roger Clemens, who had a 23-year career as a starting pitcher, had 118 complete games.  Take a look at List of Major League Baseball leaders in career wins, and see how far Cy Young is ahead of everyone else.  Young has 511, the active player closest to him is Jamie Moyer with 267, and he's 48 years old, and not on a major league roster this year.  After Moyer is 44-year old Tim Wakefield with 193 wins.  The most wins for a player under 40 years old is Liván Hernández, who has 166 wins at age 36.
 * Dwight Evans once hit a home run on the very first pitch of the very first game of the Major League baseball season; not just his team's first game, but the very first game played that season (1986) making it a literally unbreakable record (earliest home run of the season), it could only be tied.
 * Wayne Gretzky's scoring record is likely unbreakable as well, if only for the distance between him and second place. If Gretzky had never scored a goal, he would STILL be the all-time points leader on assists only; that is he has more assists than every other player in history has assists and goals together.  Technically, however, these could be broken by a similarly skilled player, I suppose.  After all, people thought Lou Gehrig's consecutive games streak would never be broken.  Cal Ripken eventually did it.  That being said...
 * Cal Ripken's consecutive games streak. 2632 games in a row.  The only active players with more than 200 games in are Matt Kemp and Ichiro Suzuki.  Both of them would have to keep their streaks going for over 15 more seasons to match Cal.  Possible, but unlikely.
 * Otto Graham played in 10 consecutive league championship games for the Cleveland Browns of the 1940's and 1950's. He won for AAFC championships from 1946-1949, and 3 of the next 6 NFL championships.  Similarly...
 * Bill Russell won 11 championship rings as a player. No active player in any sport has more than 5, if I am counting correctly.
 * John Wooden's UCLA Bruins basketball teams won seven NCAA championships in a row. Since Wooden, only two teams (1991-1992 Duke and 2006-2007 Florida) have even won 2 in a row.
 * I'm sure others will come up with more. -- Jayron  32  02:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Of the records listed above, I think only Cy Young's really qualifies under the guidelines set out by the questioner. Another example: City College of New York won both the NCAA basketball tournament and NIT in the same year, 1950, something that would be impossible today because the tournaments take place at the same time. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wooden's 7 NCAA titles in a row are quite more difficult given the way the NCAA tournament is structured. In 1973, the field had 25 teams, and his Bruins only had to win 3 games (with a bye, or 4 without) to win in all of that streak.  Today, the field has 68 teams, and there's serious talk of expanding it to 96 teams.  Under those numbers, a team needs to win a minimum of 6 games, or seven if they don't get the first round bye.  Winning 7 tournaments in a row would be impossible given the way that the best college basketball players bail for the NBA after their freshman year.  You just can't keep a team together like that.  Likewise, Dewey Evans "earliest HR of the season" record is literally unbreakable... -- Jayron  32  02:22, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * How about Grover Cleveland Alexander's 16 shutouts in 1916? Nowadays, even complete games are rare since managers like to keep pitchers' pitch counts down. In 1879, Will White threw 75 complete games in a 79-game season. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:28, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, MLB pitching records from the dead ball era are all universally unbreakable. The only meaningful breakable pitching records are probably saves, earned run average, and strikeouts, along with some of the more esoteric sabrmetric stats like WHIP.  Any record depening on either games pitched or innings pitched, in either a season or a career, is untouchable. -- Jayron  32  02:33, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think anybody's going to top Johnny Vander Meer's back-to-back no hitters anytime soon. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:01, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

In football, it's hard to see anyone matching Night Train Lane's 1.17 interceptions per game in 1952, since quarterbacks throw far fewer picks nowadays. On the other end, George Blanda threw 42 interceptions in 14 games in 1962. No coach today would allow a QB that wayward to keep playing. The Oakland Raiders had 681 rushing attempts in 1977. With rule changes since then to encourage passing, no team comes close to that total. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:36, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We haven't touched on hockey yet. In 1928-29, a goalie by the name of George Hainsworth gave up 43 goals in 44 games and had 22 shutouts. The way the game is played now, a goals-against average twice that high is considered great. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We touched on hockey. I mentioned #99 in my list above.  -- Jayron  32  02:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding records rendered unbreakable by rules changes, the record for longest boxing match would fit. Matches are now limited to a strict number of rounds, but they didn't used to be. A 1909 Joe Jeanette - Sam McVey fight went 49 rounds and is considered a contender for the longest boxing match since 1900. -- Jayron  32  02:44, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If you go back even further to the days of bareknuckle boxing, we find that "The record for the longest bareknuckle fight is listed as 6 hours and 15 minutes for a match between James Kelly and Jack Smith in Melbourne, Australia, on October 19, 1856".--TammyMoet (talk) 15:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Another one I thought of: Sammy Baugh's 1943 season, when he led the NFL in three key stats: passing yards, interceptions (as a defender), and punting average. Such a "triple crown" is impossible given how NFL players are platooned as either "offensive", "defensive", or "special team" players.  -- Jayron  32  02:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The 1932 Chicago Bears had seven wins, one loss and six ties, including three in a row. With overtime and higher scoring, ties are now very rare in the NFL. Obviously, any tie-game record from baseball, hockey or college football is unbreakable. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:49, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * True. What about the 1940 NFL Championship Game score of 73-0.  I literally cannot see another NFL game coming close to being that lopsided.  Any game that out-of-control and the leading team would just start running out the clock at halftime.  -- Jayron  32  02:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Thinking more about Hockey, not sure if it is a record, but my favorite quirky Hockey fact is that Ken Dryden won the Conn Smythe Trophy the year before he won the Calder Memorial Trophy. Winning the Playoff MVP the year before you win Rookie of the Year is likely an unrepeatable feat... -- Jayron  32  02:58, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * For basketball, Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game? Or his streak of 7 games in a row with over 50 points?  Or his record of zero ejections?  Or maybe Oscar Robertson's 1961-1962 season triple-double?  -- Jayron  32  03:02, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Lots of "firsts" can never be broken, like "first black player on a major league team". StuRat (talk) 03:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Moving away from North America, in Test cricket, Don Bradman's batting average has to crack a mention. His is 99.94. Next best is 61.53, with the next eight squeezed in between that and 57.78. So it seems that the nature of the game leads "normal" humans to max out at around 60, while Bradman was 60% better. As for changes in rules and conditions, there's no doubt that grounds are better now than when Bradman played, and they are smaller, because all games are now played with ropes well inside the fence as the boundary line. So he did it tough. HiLo48 (talk) 05:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Lovers of true adrenalin-fuelled excitement would have enjoyed the "timeless Test" between South Africa and England in 1939, which extended over 9 playing days (the longest Test match ever), and ended in a draw because the England players had to get the boat home. Matches now are generally compressed into between three and five days (but still often end in a draw).   Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:20, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * How about the guy who scored all 272 points in a basketball game in Sweden? Adam Bishop (talk) 08:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

As far as soccer goes, the record held by Marc Burrows for the fastest ever goal (2.0 seconds) will take some beating. &mdash;BETTIA&mdash; talk 10:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The article on Alfred Bergman mentions his unbreakable record, a 105-yard return in American football - possible on a 110-yard field, but not any more. Incidentally, has anyone linked list of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable? Warofdreams talk 12:01, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Alfred Bergman's record was broken recently several times. In 2005 Nathan Vasher returned a missed field goal 108 yards, a figure matched by Devin Hester in 2006 and again by Ellis Hobbs in 2007 (who made his return on a kickoff rather than missed field goal).  Those aren't even the record.  The absolute unbreakable (but still tie-able) record for any length play in American Football belongs to Antonio Cromartie who returned a missed field goal 109 yards in 2007.  The field, by the way, has been 120 yards for over a century.  The ten-yard end-zones give 100 yards of neutral turf, meaning the longest play from scrimmage is 99 yards (since you cannot take a play from scrimmage in your own end-zone and you can't go any further, officially, than the opponents goal line).  However, the longest play on a return possible (of a punt, kick-off, interception, fumble, or missed field goal) is 109 yards, since you can return a ball out of your own endzone.  The 99-yard play from scrimage has been done in the NFL by Tony Dorsett in 1983.  Information on these at List_of_National_Football_League_records_(individual).  -- Jayron  32  06:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Bergman's record cannot be broken in college football, since the NCAA records all end zone-to-end zone returns as 100 yards. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:30, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No shit? I stand corrected then.  -- Jayron  32  01:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see in the park home run records being broken, since in the early days of baseball, most fields were significantly larger then they are today. The Polo Grounds was 483 ft to center field for example, while the longest I can think of today is 434 feet for the FL Marlins.  Googlemeister (talk) 13:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Longest tennis match records are interesting: you'd think the adoption of tie-breaks would mean matches would be shorter, but according to that page, the longest game ever was Isner–Mahut match at the 2010 Wimbledon Championships. Only the "Most games in a doubles match" record stands from the pre-tie-break era.  Probably even before tie breaks, human endurance placed a limit, and there is today probably more of a tendency to suspend matches and resume the following day rather than play to the death. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Gary Linekar has the impressive feat of having played some 500 games for club and country and never once received a yellow (or direct red) card. Whilst possible to be matched (and who knows maybe someone out there already has) it's highly unlikely a modern pro would be able to achieve this. ny156uk (talk) 23:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this is the case in javelin throw. See Javelin throw; if I read it correctly, there is an old world record of 104m that is (practically?) unbeatable with new rules. (they reset the world record list when they changed the rules.) Jørgen (talk) 13:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

In the NHL, goal scoring varies by era. The first few years in the NHL saw a lot of players score many goals per game. They only dressed nine skaters (non goalies) then. Now they dress 18. Joe Malone's 2.2 goals per game, from the '17-'18, the first NHL season, is still the record. His overall total, 44 was broken because they had shorter seasons. Most of the goaltending records for goals allowed per game are from the mid to late 20s. George Hainsworth's 0.92 from '28-'29 is still the record (and mentioned above). In another area, penalty minutes have gone down because of the decline in fighting. So the records for penalty minutes in a career (Tiger Williams) and a season (Dave Schultz) are unlikely to fall any time soon. --JGGardiner (talk) 07:49, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Also as a score-keeping matter, Major League Baseball counted walks as hits in 1887 producing unmatched batting averages for that year which are usually excluded from tables. --JGGardiner (talk) 08:49, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

First author cameo
What is the first known instance of the author of a novel of other work of literature making a cameo appearance in a film adaptation of their work?--198.164.211.237 (talk) 22:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * L. Frank Baum appeared in The Fairylogue and Radio-Plays (1908). In 1982-83, S. E. Hinton did cameos in three films adapted from her novels (Tex, The Outsiders, Rumble Fish). This could make an interesting list but would take a long time to research. Pepso2 (talk) 13:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Mark Twain showed up in The Prince and the Pauper (1909), although I don't know if it could really be called a cameo. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)